Immobile Tournament Final Match (Wally vs SCP-871)

[FRIMI]

IMO it should be a win for Wally if all cakes end up permanently inside him from some time onwards.
Like, if Kirby or Buu or some other regular being swallows an opponent and the opponent can never escape their body and ends up being infinitely digested for all of eternity, wouldn't that be a win for them?

idk about Buu but with Kirby that would be considered BFR

 

[JustANormalLemon]

idk about Buu but with Kirby that would be considered BFR

In buu case they enter in a deep sleep and are imobilized inside some flesh cacoons

 

[FRIMI]

so I was talking with my friend who's super into physics and she went through the trouble of actually calculating roughly the exact growth rates of the surprisingly many variables. Right now she tells me that one particular differential equation is especially difficult, because the doubling events of the cakes mean that the function isn't continuous. But given that, here's what we've got so far.

First of all, the initial instance of SCP-871 and maybe the second get absorbed. Obviously. Then over the course of the next few weeks, there will be enough cakes to overtake the entire continent with a small gap where Wally is such that every cake that spawns close enough will be absorbed but not so much that Wally will have a steady stream of cakes yet. After a few more days The area of cakes will be crowded enough that Wally will have a steady supply at which point given yet a few more days of Wally slowly but surely growing he will fall out of his container (which I assume is special in the comics otherwise Wally would just fall through the ground and the verse clearly already has tech that allows safe interaction with him) at which point Wally consumes the earth and all the current cakes. Now there's just a steady loop of cakes being summoned just outside Wally and being spaghettified just to summon a new cake in its place. There will come a point at which Wally's event horizon does exceed the entire cake mass as a result of this fact:

The tidal forces at the edge of the event horizon of a black hole are actually anti-proportional to its size. I.e. once Wally is big enough the cakes can actually fall a few meters past its event horizon without being destroyed.

(which btw this is only true because the distance from the epicenter is further away and actually has nothing to do with the strength of the black hole)

However also because of this fact, simply being inside Wally isn't enough to destroy a cake. It needs to fall far enough that it reaches what we've been calling "the destruction radius" which is the radius at which a summoned cake gets pulled apart before it falls a distance equal to its max range of summoning which we've been calling two meters for convenience sake despite the fact that it's only defined as "in the vicinity." Just beyond this destruction radius there will always be an outer shell of cakes slightly less than 2 meters thick being constantly summoned and falling consistently without fail by the law of large numbers. Now in my mind this would be enough to call it an incon, but there's a bit of a catch. At one point in the far future the black hole will become so massive, fully unregulated as a result of Wally's surprisingly relevant ability to consciously control his hawking radiation, that a third, initially small radius around the epicenter of the black hole will form in this weird, hard to calculate, non-euclidean area of spacetime in which the gravity is so intense that any cakes summoned within this radius get pulled apart by the tidal forces in at most 1 planck time. That is to say that the cake summoned in this radius is destroyed at the same moment it's summoned and thus if this radius were to overtake the cake mass I would say that Wally would win since part of my argument has been that "there are no moments in time in which there aren't any intact cakes" but if every cake were within this radius of instant death then that would mean that at every moment in time, every single cake in existence is destroyed including any cakes summoned in that moment. This weird state of cakelessness continuing for at least 1 hour (which it would) is enough in my mind to in considered incapacitated.

The problem now is that we don't know if the growth rate of the cake shell can be exceeded by the growth rate of the destruction radius, let alone the growth rate of the instant death radius. This is because the cake shell grows faster than exponentially. The total mass of cakes at any given moment is based on f(t) = 2^(x/3154000) where t is seconds. The mass of the black hole increases linearly but the scaler increases exponentially meaning Wally's mass is based on g(t) = (2^t/3154000)t+b, where b is Wally's typical mass. The destruction radius is based on a gravity equation that doesn't fully work because of doubling events messing it up, but IS based on the mass of Wally. The cake shell radius is equal to the destruction radius + 2 meters unless the destruction radius is able to jump over the cake shell DURING a doubling event which is the part that we're unsure about right now.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

so I was talking with my friend who's super into physics and she went through the trouble of actually calculating roughly the exact growth rates of the surprisingly many variables. Right now she tells me that one particular differential equation is especially difficult, because the doubling events of the cakes mean that the function isn't continuous. But given that, here's what we've got so far.

First of all, the initial instance of SCP-871 and maybe the second get absorbed. Obviously. Then over the course of the next few weeks, there will be enough cakes to overtake the entire continent with a small gap where Wally is such that every cake that spawns close enough will be absorbed but not so much that Wally will have a steady stream of cakes yet. After a few more days The area of cakes will be crowded enough that Wally will have a steady supply at which point given yet a few more days of Wally slowly but surely growing he will fall out of his container (which I assume is special in the comics otherwise Wally would just fall through the ground and the verse clearly already has tech that allows safe interaction with him) at which point Wally consumes the earth and all the current cakes. Now there's just a steady loop of cakes being summoned just outside Wally and being spaghettified just to summon a new cake in its place. There will come a point at which Wally's event horizon does exceed the entire cake mass as a result of this fact:

(which btw this is only true because the distance from the epicenter is further away and actually has nothing to do with the strength of the black hole)

However also because of this fact, simply being inside Wally isn't enough to destroy a cake. It needs to fall far enough that it reaches what we've been calling "the destruction radius" which is the radius at which a summoned cake gets pulled apart before it falls a distance equal to its max range of summoning which we've been calling two meters for convenience sake despite the fact that it's only defined as "in the vicinity." Just beyond this destruction radius there will always be an outer shell of cakes slightly less than 2 meters thick being constantly summoned and falling consistently without fail by the law of large numbers. Now in my mind this would be enough to call it an incon, but there's a bit of a catch. At one point in the far future the black hole will become so massive, fully unregulated as a result of Wally's surprisingly relevant ability to consciously control his hawking radiation, that a third, initially small radius around the epicenter of the black hole will form in this weird, hard to calculate, non-euclidean area of spacetime in which the gravity is so intense that any cakes summoned within this radius get pulled apart by the tidal forces in at most 1 planck time. That is to say that the cake summoned in this radius is destroyed at the same moment it's summoned and thus if this radius were to overtake the cake mass I would say that Wally would win since part of my argument has been that "there are no moments in time in which there aren't any intact cakes" but if every cake were within this radius of instant death then that would mean that at every moment in time, every single cake in existence is destroyed including any cakes summoned in that moment. This weird state of cakelessness continuing for at least 1 hour (which it would) is enough in my mind to in considered incapacitated.

The problem now is that we don't know if the growth rate of the cake shell can be exceeded by the growth rate of the destruction radius, let alone the growth rate of the instant death radius. This is because the cake shell grows faster than exponentially. The total mass of cakes at any given moment is based on f(t) = 2^(x/3154000) where t is seconds. The mass of the black hole increases linearly but the scaler increases exponentially meaning Wally's mass is based on g(t) = (2^t/3154000)t+b, where b is Wally's typical mass. The destruction radius is based on a gravity equation that doesn't fully work because of doubling events messing it up, but IS based on the mass of Wally. The cake shell radius is equal to the destruction radius + 2 meters unless the destruction radius is able to jump over the cake shell DURING a doubling event which is the part that we're unsure about right now.

Wow, this was lots of cience...

 

[SuperDino85]

Oh man a cake actually putting up a fight against a black hole. Not exactly a traditional fight as we’re familiar with but a pretty crazy one nonetheless and imo funny to imagine.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

I would still go for incon here, the cake is never stoping fighting back, and neitheir is thee blackhole

 

[FRIMI]

Oh man a cake actually putting up a fight against a black hole. Not exactly a traditional fight as we’re familiar with but a pretty crazy one nonetheless and imo funny to imagine.

every time I try to picture it my brain ends up trying to simplify the image in my head and it is really hard to actually accurately imagine it. Maybe it'd be easier to picture pitch darkness since no light could possibly escape the inside of Wally where this fight is mostly taking place anyway

 

[JustANormalLemon]

every time I try to picture it my brain ends up trying to simplify the image in my head and it is really hard to actually accurately imagine it. Maybe it'd be easier to picture pitch darkness since no light could possibly escape the inside of Wally where this fight is mostly taking place anyway

Maybe try draw It?

 

[DontTalkDT]

(which btw this is only true because the distance from the epicenter is further away and actually has nothing to do with the strength of the black hole)

I know. Would be really weird if a black hole got weaker as it grows lol

At one point in the far future the black hole will become so massive, fully unregulated as a result of Wally's surprisingly relevant ability to consciously control his hawking radiation, that a third, initially small radius around the epicenter of the black hole will form in this weird, hard to calculate, non-euclidean area of spacetime in which the gravity is so intense that any cakes summoned within this radius get pulled apart by the tidal forces in at most 1 planck time. That is to say that the cake summoned in this radius is destroyed at the same moment it's summoned and thus if this radius were to overtake the cake mass I would say that Wally would win since part of my argument has been that "there are no moments in time in which there aren't any intact cakes" but if every cake were within this radius of instant death then that would mean that at every moment in time, every single cake in existence is destroyed including any cakes summoned in that moment.

Huh, didn't consider that. That would definitely be quite decisive.

Another thing I haven't considered yet: Would the altered geometry of spacetime caused by the massive gravitational forces in later stages alter the likely spawning position of the cakes relative to Wally in any relevant fashion? Like, I think when compared to cartesian coordinates space closer to the black hole is stretched in a certain sense. Would that mean the cake is more likely to spawn closer to the singularity rather than further away?

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Another thing I haven't considered yet: Would the altered geometry of spacetime caused by the massive gravitational forces in later stages alter the likely spawning position of the cakes relative to Wally in any relevant fashion? Like, I think when compared to cartesian coordinates space closer to the black hole is stretched in a certain sense. Would that mean the cake is more likely to spawn closer to the singularity rather than further away?

well, this means that the metters in a fashion sense are compacted in just some centimenters, If the cake magic covers It, mostly likle It would make the cake spam closer

 

[FRIMI]

Another thing I haven't considered yet: Would the altered geometry of spacetime caused by the massive gravitational forces in later stages alter the likely spawning position of the cakes relative to Wally in any relevant fashion? Like, I think when compared to cartesian coordinates space closer to the black hole is stretched in a certain sense. Would that mean the cake is more likely to spawn closer to the singularity rather than further away?

so on a cartesian plane an instance of SCP-871 is always roughly 50/50 in whether it'll spawn closer or further from the epicenter, always slightly in favor of moving away because the line between moving closer or further is concave. When my friend was doing all the calculations she did take into account the warped spacetime, though it doesn't matter so much because the law of large numbers will basically guarantee that there will consistently be a shell of cakes around the destruction radius at all times. Was talking to her and she seems to think that the cakes being stuck inside Wally would count as a win via sealing (translating what she said into vsbattles terms) however I personally disagree. For now I would say that anyone who thinks being permanently stuck past the event horizon is enough to count as a win should vote Wally, everyone else like me who thinks it's not quite enough until actual substantial harm comes to 871 should either vote incon or hold their vote until more information is gotten/understood, equations are solved, etc.

I will say that there's a decent chance the equations are unsolvable since we're getting into some pretty rigorous physics in regards to how physics-breaking fictional abilities push physics past the point where we can make reasonable sense of it. Between an infinite supply of mass from 871 and a black hole that doesn't emit hawking radiation from Wally, this fight does break reality a little bit... All this from a black hole vs a cake. Incredible

 

[JustANormalLemon]

so on a cartesian plane an instance of SCP-871 is always roughly 50/50 in whether it'll spawn closer or further from the epicenter, always slightly in favor of moving away because the line between moving closer or further is concave. When my friend was doing all the calculations she did take into account the warped spacetime, though it doesn't matter so much because the law of large numbers will basically guarantee that there will consistently be a shell of cakes around the destruction radius at all times. Was talking to her and she seems to think that the cakes being stuck inside Wally would count as a win via sealing (translating what she said into vsbattles terms) however I personally disagree. For now I would say that anyone who thinks being permanently stuck past the event horizon is enough to count as a win should vote Wally, everyone else like me who thinks it's not quite enough until actual substantial harm comes to 871 should either vote incon or hold their vote until more information is gotten/understood, equations are solved, etc.

I will say that there's a decent chance the equations are unsolvable since we're getting into some pretty rigorous physics in regards to how physics-breaking fictional abilities push physics past the point where we can make reasonable sense of it. Between an infinite supply of mass from 871 and a black hole that doesn't emit hawking radiation from Wally, this fight does break reality a little bit... All this from a black hole vs a cake. Incredible

best battle in vs wiki history... I will continue to vote, sinse diferent from conventional sealing, incapacitation or BFR the cake is continually fighting against the blackhole, It isn't incapacitated, It is always tring to get out of It suction ratio, so no sealing sinse in the teoricall side of things, It should be able to to get out(not in a praticall) and is still in the battle field... trough, not beuing able to get out in a praticall way maybe count as a incapacitation... hum... maybe I will vote wally...

think like this, if you trappe someone in SCP-3008, would It count as incapacitation? sinse they can get out of the battle field, but is basically impossible, and the trapping point being the blackhole It self also don't help...

man, I'm confused, but I will continue vote wincon untill we distingui If this should count as incapacitation...

 

[FRIMI]

think like this, if you trappe someone in SCP-3008, would It count as incapacitation? sinse they can get out of the battle field, but is basically impossible, and the trapping point being the blackhole It self also don't help...

it would count as BFR

 

[JustANormalLemon]

it would count as BFR

Let's say that the inside of the Ikea also count as arena in the rules

 

[FRIMI]

idk about that one. If we called it part of the battlefield (which would be an odd rule to add but I guess it's just to make the analogy better?) I would probably call it inconclusive since now neither opponent is capable of fighting the other

 

[JustANormalLemon]

idk about that one. If we called it part of the battlefield (which would be an odd rule to add but I guess it's just to make the analogy better?) I would probably call it inconclusive since now neither opponent is capable of fighting the other

yes, It's just for the analogy.

well... but one is trapped forever in the Ikea and the other is free to go home, make some food, eat a decent food, see their family...

i guess a better aalogy would be a battle that takes place in a prision and one guy trappes the other in a cell

 

[FRIMI]

well... but one is trapped forever in the Ikea and the other is free to go home, make some food, eat a decent food, see their family...

doesn't really matter if the goal of both is to beat the other in a fight and now neither is physically able to fight the other

i guess a better analogy would be a battle that takes place in a prision and one guy trappes the other in a cell

maybe? I kinda feel like it's difficult to come up with an analogous situation to this lol

 

[JustANormalLemon]

well, the point Is, they are constantly touching one another, fighting, but one is just not moving leting every cake die in him self while the cakes are infinity multipling... and at this point there is no battle field any more, sinse the entire know universe is fused to this cake blackhole hibrid

 

[DontTalkDT]

Actually, Wally wins on the weirdest technicality now that I think about it: Wally stays in place (Well, approximately. It averages out to him staying in place over time) however intact cakes can only exist in an ever-increasing distance away from the initial battlefield.
Therefore he wins via BFR. The cakes can't return to the battlefield within a reasonable time, as the battlefield lies within Wally close to the singularity where they get destroyed.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Actually, Wally wins on the weirdest technicality now that I think about it: Wally stays in place (Well, approximately. It averages out to him staying in place over time) however intact cakes can only exist in an ever-increasing distance away from the initial battlefield.
Therefore he wins via BFR. The cakes can't return to the battlefield within a reasonable time, as the battlefield lies within Wally close to the singularity where they get destroyed.

so... you are tring to say the wally isn't a battle field, in thi case wally wouldn't be in the battle field eaitheir

 

[DontTalkDT]

so... you are tring to say the wally isn't a battle field, in thi case wally wouldn't be in the battle field eaitheir

No the battlefield is the location where the battle starts. Wally remains in that spot (even if the spot in and of itself gets completely destroyed, it is still technically that location).

However, if Wally's destruction radius is, say, 100 000km then the cake needs to stay 100 000km away from the location where the battle took place. In other words it is BFR'd by being pushed away to a location in space which it can't return from within 1 week (because Wally is there).
Wally wins because it "pushes" the cake into space, which is a well-known way to BFR characters.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

No the battlefield is the location where the battle starts. Wally remains in that spot (even if the spot in and of itself gets completely destroyed, it is still technically that location).

However, if Wally's destruction radius is, say, 100 000km then the cake needs to stay 100 000km away from the location where the battle took place. In other words it is BFR'd by being pushed away to a location in space which it can't return from within 1 week (because Wally is there).
Wally wins because it "pushes" the cake into space, which is a well-known way to BFR characters.

well, techinically, there is cake all around wally, sinse now most of him is made of cakes, so there still cakes at the battlefield... trough It is fun to think that he won beacuse he got so fat that he pushed the oponent out of the batle field

 

[DontTalkDT]

well, techinically, there is cake all around wally, sinse now most of him is made of cakes, so there still cakes at the battlefield... trough It is fun to think that he won beacuse he got so fat that he pushed the oponent out of the batle field

The cake close to Wally's singularity is permanently destroyed, though.
Saying that makes it not count as BFR, is like saying that a cut off finger left on the battlefield after its owner was banished to another dimension makes it not count as BFR.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

The cake close to Wally's singularity is permanently destroyed, though.
Saying that makes it not count as BFR, is like saying that a cut off finger left on the battlefield after its owner was banished to another dimension makes it not count as BFR.

The problem is that the "cutted" finger is how the cake atacks

 

[DontTalkDT]

The problem is that the "cutted" finger is how the cake atacks

I mean, a fireball or some other attack being left over should also not diminish the fact that you are not on the battlefield either.
The SBA's formulation is specifically "removing the opponent from the battlefield for at least one week".

 

[JustANormalLemon]

I mean, a fireball or some other attack being left over should also not diminish the fact that you are not on the battlefield either.
The SBA's formulation is specifically "removing the opponent from the battlefield for at least one week".

I guess.... It's fair? Them this is the worst BFR fome the history?

 

[FRIMI]

as fun as that would be for a solution, there are also cakes further down from the cake shell. There's cakes all the way down. It's just that the cake shell determines the radius at which the force of gravity is exactly such that each cake summoned at the edge falls exactly the summoning range before getting >90% destroyed. This argument might be made whenever the instant death radius becomes relevant. I guess the question then is if there's a character that can clone itself like the mauler twins from Invincible fighting together for example, if one is BFR'd but still fighting and the other is incapacitated but in the battlefield, is that considered a loss? This is an honest question, I don't know the standard that is typically set by the wiki since this is such a niche corner case

 

[JustANormalLemon]

well... so this is how the best tounament will end? into a dead thread? the cake and the balckhole being so impossible to understand that every thing is dead? even the ones discussing this baattle? forver toguether as every thing else stops existing... and the cake and Wally forever, being trapped as one, forever floating in a void after the heat death of the universe... wait, would the heat death of the multiverse kill Wally?

 

[DontTalkDT]

as fun as that would be for a solution, there are also cakes further down from the cake shell. There's cakes all the way down. It's just that the cake shell determines the radius at which the force of gravity is exactly such that each cake summoned at the edge falls exactly the summoning range before getting >90% destroyed. This argument might be made whenever the instant death radius becomes relevant. I guess the question then is if there's a character that can clone itself like the mauler twins from Invincible fighting together for example, if one is BFR'd but still fighting and the other is incapacitated but in the battlefield, is that considered a loss? This is an honest question, I don't know the standard that is typically set by the wiki since this is such a niche corner case

Thing is, there aren't intact cakes further in due to the instant death radius. Past the instant death radius intact cakes basically can't exist, no?
So once instant death radius > battlefield all intact cakes are BFR'd.

 

[FRIMI]

Thing is, there aren't intact cakes further in due to the instant death radius. Past the instant death radius intact cakes basically can't exist, no?
So once instant death radius > battlefield all intact cakes are BFR'd.

this is an excellent point actually. Which is why I was asking if a fight against 2 clones where one is BFR'd but still trying to fight and the other is incapacitated in the battlefield is considered a win.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

this is an excellent point actually. Which is why I was asking if a fight against 2 clones where one is BFR'd but still trying to fight and the other is incapacitated in the battlefield is considered a win.

I think this situation would mean that the "cloner" is meated in 2 wincons by his oponent, both immobilized and BFR, so would count a win to Wally

 

[JustANormalLemon]

bump?

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Bump?

 

[FRIMI]

in an absolutely insane turn of events and a lot of time to think, I'm voting for the black hole via BFR

 

[JustANormalLemon]

bUMP

 

[FRIMI]

wait this match isn't over?

 

[FRIMI]

what are the votes rn?

 

[JustANormalLemon]

2 votes for wally (me and ou)

 

[FRIMI]

wow yeah I guess this match really didn't get much interaction

 

[JustANormalLemon]

We should call pwople to vote