I'm Going to Hell for this: JUDY VS Shub-Niggurath

[Botchede]

So uh, yeah. This is happening. I really wanted to test the boundaries of whether or not these new revisions might let Twin Peaks actually compare to Cthulhu Mythos, so here we go.

Shub-Niggurath vs Mother of Abominations key for JUDY. Both are in-character. The fight happens in beyond angled-space.

Mommy:

The other mommy:

Thunder McQueen:

 

[Botchede]

Bump

 

[Botchede]

BUMP

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Shub stomps. JUDY is 11 degrees of transcendence above baseline. Outer gods are more than infinite degrees.

 

[AuruilImperator]

Going with JUDY on this one. Shub doesn't have the narrative hax to matter here, outside of dubious scaling her to other more notable and potent deities.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Hax cant make up for an infinite degrees of transcendence above...

 

[AuruilImperator]

Hax cant make up for an infinite degrees of transcendence above...

Again; really dubious scaling here. Outer Gods aren't made equal. Ghroth is considered an Outer God, and yet it's nowhere comparable to Yog-Sothoth or any of Azathoth's spawn. Hell, even Nyarlathotep itself got the rug pulled over its eyes in Dream Quest.

So no. In all likelihood, JUDY takes this. Not only can I make the same argument for it being "transcendent to an infinite degree", but right from the get-go, the Mother has the necessary narrative fuckery to absolutely ruin the Black Goat's day.

 

[Botchede]

Hax cant make up for an infinite degrees of transcendence above...

Again; really dubious scaling here. Outer Gods aren't made equal. Ghroth is considered an Outer God, and yet it's nowhere comparable to Yog-Sothoth or any of Azathoth's spawn. Hell, even Nyarlathotep itself got the rug pulled over its eyes in Dream Quest.
So no. In all likelihood, JUDY takes this. Not only can I make the same argument for it being "transcendent to an infinite degree", but right from the get-go, the Mother has the necessary narrative fuckery to absolutely ruin the Black Goat's day.

I was going to mention this. I mean, Cxaxukluth is arguably stronger and transcends every other Outer God outside of the big two since he was directly born out of Azathoth through fission, and Nyarly is (Probably) the weakest since he unable to keep hunting for Randolph after Nodens gave him his protection.

Given that Shub is "just" a baseline outer god (possibly stronger since she managed to bang Yog without being instantly erased, but she might have done that with an Avatar), JUDY could certainly overpower her through her extremely powerful narrative hax (Arguably the strongest on the wiki, even more so than the one from The Writer)

 

[TheDivineHost]

we had the line, and bro hopped it

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

What Nodens "bested" in that moment was the Black Pharaoh, just an avatar and not the real thing and even then IIRC Nodes only protected Randolph from the things that were hunting him (don't remember how they are called) from across the multiverse until he was being pulled into the court of Azzy.

I want to point out, that letter only mentions Azzy and very few beings but not any outer god so we can't determine where it stands compared to the rest AFAIK.

Also, also, AP>HAX is always a thing in 1-A and up matches and unless she is higher then no "extremely powerful narrative hax" will do nothing to Shub.

Also, unless she becomes high 1-A or 0 then the writer ***** her up with his narrative hax as do any stronger being than her.

One last thing, it appears that the Mythos haven't got their CRT so this is Muda Muda and JUDY doesn't hit me as something that can compare to the Mythos but let the experts explain.

 

[AuruilImperator]

What Nodens "bested" in that moment was the Black Pharaoh, just an avatar and not the real thing and even then IIRC Nodes only protected Randolph from the things that were hunting him (don't remember how they are called) from across the multiverse until he was being pulled into the court of Azzy.
I want to point out, that letter only mentions Azzy and very few beings but not any outer god so we can't determine where it stands compared to the rest AFAIK.

Also, also, AP>HAX is always a thing in 1-A and up matches and unless she is higher then no "extremely powerful narrative hax" will do nothing to Shub.

Also, unless she becomes high 1-A or 0 then the writer ***** her up with his narrative hax as do any stronger being than her.

One last thing, it appears that the Mythos haven't got their CRT so this is Muda Muda and JUDY doesn't hit me as something that can compare to the Mythos but let the experts explain.

There's no indication that Shub (or anything in Lovecraft barring Yog or Azathoth) could handle narrative hax of any form. They're dimensionally transcendent to an undefinable degree, but they don't deal in medium-manipulation. Like, at all. Shub herself is a baseline Outer God and unless we go with (again, very dubious) scaling, she shouldn't match up to any 1-A with esoteric abilities beyond merely holding dimensional transcendence. Which again, I can similarly argue for JUDY itself.

As for anything involving High 1-A or 0, we shouldn't bring them up at all in this debate. The thread for the proposed revisions to Judy is still extremely fresh and kicking that hornet's nest again is a ******* godawful idea.

 

[Botchede]

Also, also, AP>HAX is always a thing in 1-A and up matches and unless she is higher then no "extremely powerful narrative hax" will do nothing to Shub.

Also, unless she becomes high 1-A or 0 then the writer ***** her up with his narrative hax as do any stronger being than her.

Hax can affect those with an AP higher than you depending on which hax we are talking about. There are plenty of charactrs out there in the wiki with hax that goes well beyond their AP tier (Yogiri is a good example of this), and the same can apply to JUDY, Also, JUDY has Subjective Reality on a High 1-A (Arguably even 0, depending on how the revisions go on), and i don't see how Shub could resist it simply because "She lives in a state higher up in the court so lol nope". She doesn't even have Transduality which is usually required to resist this kind of thing. I'm not trying to nerf the Mythos or something, but sometimes i feel like they are given too much credit simply because they "might" transcend other similar eldritch 1-A beings thanks to the gates and everything else while ignoring the powerful hax other 1-A might have that can make up the difference during the fight.

Also, not really relevant here, but even if it wasn't the "real" Nyarly it's pretty much stated that the Black Paraoh basically "gave up" on hunting Randolph at the end, and even if what Nodens killed were his servants he basically addimited defeat and went on to mess with some lesser Gods to let out his anger:

" the crawling chaos Nyarlathotep strode brooding into the onyx castle atop unknown Kadath in the cold waste, and taunted insolently the mild gods of earth whom he had snatched abruptly from their scented revels in the marvellous sunset city."

So yeah, Nyarly basically went on a temper tantrum after his defeat.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

>Hax can affect those with an AP higher than you depending on which hax we are talking about...

Not in 1-A tho, nothing like you said is like that, in 1-A only power matters.

>Arguably even 0, depending on how the revisions go on)

It was rejected AFAIK and not only that but the Mythos still are pending on their CRT so they very well could end up as High 1-A.

>Also, not really relevant here, but even if it wasn't the "real" Nyarly it's pretty much stated that the Black Paraoh basically "gave up" on hunting Randolph at the end

Because Randolph was going through the multiverse directly into the court of Azzy, that's why he stoped IIRC and was when Randolph awakaned.

>" the crawling chaos Nyarlathotep strode brooding into the onyx castle atop unknown Kadath in the cold waste, and taunted insolently the mild gods of earth whom he had snatched abruptly from their scented revels in the marvellous sunset city."

This is after his plan on throwing Randolph at the court failed, right? Why follow him if he was already "safe".

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

There's no indication that Shub (or anything in Lovecraft barring Yog or Azathoth) could handle narrative hax of any form. They're dimensionally transcendent to an undefinable degree, but they don't deal in medium-manipulation. Like, at all.

Mate, if you think that they don't resist or something because they lack the resistance then put JUDY against them and see how well that fares.

>Shub herself is a baseline Outer God and unless we go with (again, very dubious) scaling, she shouldn't match up to any 1-A with esoteric abilities beyond merely holding dimensional transcendence. Which again, I can similarly argue for JUDY itself.

Well, on site "she" is treated as some of the strongest OG, if you think is dubious or wrong then go and make a CRT to change that, until then your rant is Muda.

Also, if you could have argued that for JUDY then doing so in the CRT that proposed her as Tier 0 would have been amazing to do.

>As for anything involving High 1-A or 0, we shouldn't bring them up at all in this debate. The thread for the proposed revisions to Judy is still extremely fresh and kicking that hornet's nest again is a ******* godawful idea.

Is there a problem with it? Someone said that she could defeat the writer with her hax to which I pointed that unless she has feats or affecting something infinitly stronger than her or if she were tier 0 then she could, but no.

Also, said thread got rejected.

 

[Botchede]

> Not in 1-A tho, nothing like you said is like that, in 1-A only power matters.

Says who?

> Well, on site "she" is treated as some of the strongest OG, if you think is dubious or wrong then go and make a CRT to change that, until then your rant is Muda.

Well, that's kinda bullshit. I mean, why is she treated as one of the strongest outer gods anyways? There is nothing that implies she transcends normal outer gods or that she is even at a level "above" them.

> Also, if you could have argued that for JUDY then doing so in the CRT that proposed her as Tier 0 would have been amazing to do.

Welp, i didn't see it until now, so there's that.

> Mate, if you think that they don't resist or something because they lack the resistance then put JUDY against them and see how well that fares.

Well, i'm not going to put her against a tier 0 because their transdence is much, MUCH higher than even the strongest High 1-A, but here we are talking about 1-A keys that have a (mostly) similar level of transcendence.

Also, don't you think it's strange that arguably the "strongest" verse in the wiki lacks Transduality outside of Yog and Azzy? You would expect that one of the "strongest" 1-A's would have this ability, but nope, Shub doesn't. That alone makes me think that she should be disqualified as one of the "strongest" outer gods.

 

[AuruilImperator]

There's no indication that Shub (or anything in Lovecraft barring Yog or Azathoth) could handle narrative hax of any form. They're dimensionally transcendent to an undefinable degree, but they don't deal in medium-manipulation. Like, at all.

Mate, if you think that they don't resist or something because they lack the resistance then put JUDY against them and see how well that fares.
>Shub herself is a baseline Outer God and unless we go with (again, very dubious) scaling, she shouldn't match up to any 1-A with esoteric abilities beyond merely holding dimensional transcendence. Which again, I can similarly argue for JUDY itself.

Well, on site "she" is treated as some of the strongest OG, if you think is dubious or wrong then go and make a CRT to change that, until then your rant is Muda.

Also, if you could have argued that for JUDY then doing so in the CRT that proposed her as Tier 0 would have been amazing to do.

>As for anything involving High 1-A or 0, we shouldn't bring them up at all in this debate. The thread for the proposed revisions to Judy is still extremely fresh and kicking that hornet's nest again is a ******* godawful idea.

Is there a problem with it? Someone said that she could defeat the writer with her hax to which I pointed that unless she has feats or affecting something infinitly stronger than her or if she were tier 0 then she could, but no.

Also, said thread got rejected.

Oh come off your highhorse, you bloody clown. Unless you can show me where Shub somehow got the feats to resist narrative manipulation of any form, I can sit here and tell you off every time you try to pull this nonsense. Hell, literally the only thing Stub has going for her is scaling off other Gods. That's it. On her own merits, a staggering number of things can body her. And you've still yet to prove that she could survive JUDY putting in even the token effort here.


As for the revision thread getting rejected: The logic behind it was bullshit, and would literally require us to throw out most, if not every 0 currently occupying the spot. It was less "rejected" and more "neither side can come to a common ground so we'll just leave it there." Nobody outright came in and rejected the idea.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

>Says who?

That's how 1-A battles have been done for like 2 years now. Want to change it? Go and make a thread.

>Well, that's kinda bullshit. I mean, why is she treated as one of the strongest outer gods anyways? There is nothing that implies she transcends normal outer gods or that she is even at a level "above" them.

if you think is dubious or wrong then go and make a CRT to change that, until then your rant is Muda.

>Welp, i didn't see it until now, so there's that.

The response wasn't for you but meh

>Well, i'm not going to put her against a tier 0 because their transdence is much, MUCH higher than even the strongest High 1-A, but here we are talking about 1-A keys that have a (mostly) similar level of transcendence.

1-A have different levels of trascendence, if one is higher then the other is MUDA MUDA even if they only have "1-A keys".

>Also, don't you think it's strange that arguably the "strongest" verse in the wiki lacks Transduality outside of Yog and Azzy? You would expect that one of the "strongest" 1-A's would have this ability, but nope, Shub doesn't. That alone makes me think that she should be disqualified as one of the "strongest" outer gods.

What I find strange is that people thinks that just because one profile is outdated or someone lacks something they can be defeated by lower beings.

Also, go back to the second point.

Either way, the Mythos profiles are bound to be updated soon and with that they may become High 1-A or end up as just 1-A AFAIK.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

@Auru

Please reffer to the post above this one.

 

[Planck69]

@Auru

Please reffer to the post above this one.

Pretty sure general consensus on FanOfRPG's thread was that the Archetypes were going to be High 1-A (and possibly even Hypnos as well but that's still a bit out there). I'm not so knowledgeable on Twin Peaks but I will say this; If she's been shown to explicitly affect beings that are not only incomprehensibly beyond a 1-A+ hierarchy but are beyond all change to the point that even characters more powerful than themselves can't truly affect them then I think she could stand a chance in this fight.

 

[AuruilImperator]

@Auru
Please reffer to the post above this one.

It's just you rehearsing shit you already said before, going "gO mAkE a tHrEaD" like a ninny, and just generally saying the same shit I already addressed. Why should I care?

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Pretty sure general consensus on FanOfRPG's thread was that the Archetypes were going to be High 1-A (and possibly even Hypnos as well but that's still a bit out there). I'm not so knowledgeable on Twin Peaks but I will say this; If she's been shown to explicitly affect beings that are not only incomprehensibly beyond a 1-A+ hierarchy but are beyond all change to the point that even characters more powerful than themselves can't truly affect them then I think she could stand a chance in this fight.

Oh, so the consensus was High 1-A, interesting.

Well, as for this, if Shub becomes High 1-A it stomps to high heaven and back and, unless the salty guy makes a thread for JUDY to be high 1-A or becomes 1-A+ or even show it can affect things higher than her, Shub stomps as things are right now.

 

[Botchede]

Oh, so the consensus was High 1-A, interesting.

Well, as for this, if Shub becomes High 1-A it stomps to high heaven and back and, unless the salty guy makes a thread for JUDY to be high 1-A or becomes 1-A+ or even show it can affect things higher than her, Shub stomps as things are right now.

I'm not being "salty", i'm just pointing out that i find it highly suspicious that Shub can ignore Subjective Reality "just" bcause her transcendence is higher than JUDY. Having higher transcendence won't change the fact that the other 1-A character won't be able to see you "just" as a fictional character in a narrative which they can manipulate, specially since the Cthulhu Mythos, as noted before, lacks Transduality outside of Yog and has no narrative-related hax.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I wasn't talking about you tho.

Still, trascendence means being completly above something, thats why most matches always comes down to "who trascends the other?".

JUDY having some broken hax in verse is meaningless if here she fights something that trascends her, hax or resistances matter not in 1-A matches, only AP.

 

[Unoriginal_Memes]

If Shub-Niggurath is infinitely transcendent over baseline 1-A, which it is, then JUDY wouldn't even be able to touch it, much less be able to use her hax on it. Shub-Niggurath on the other hand, thinks and JUDY dies.

The only things that matter in 1-A is power, and because S-N's infinity is infinitely bigger than JUDY's infinity, Shub-Niggurath stomps.

 

[Planck69]

@Botchede

I think the problem here is the sheer difference in scale between both cosmologies being far too massive to reasonably assume that narrative hax of JUDY's level could work on Shub-Niggurath. It's a burden-of-proof thing and much in the same way we can't assume that 2-A plot-hax work on a 1-A without more context, we can't reasonably assume that JUDY could affect something that views her the way she views humans. However, this would change should she become High 1-A.

Also apparently there isn't a hierarchy when dealing with the Archetypes so that meme of Nyarlathotep being a lesser God should really die already.

 

[AuruilImperator]

Yeah, so I'm going to tap out at this point. There's a time and place for nonsensical scaling (using revisions that haven't even been applied yet), and I feel as though this one has jumped the shark into the ******* sun.

 

[Planck69]

Yeah, so I'm going to tap out at this point. There's a time and place for nonsensical scaling (using revisions that haven't even been applied yet), and I feel as though this one has jumped the shark into the ******* sun.

Isn't that literally every 1-A match on the wiki?

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Yes, but he thinks that we are using "High 1-A" shub instead of its actual key

 

[Planck69]

Yes, but he thinks that we are using "High 1-A" shub instead of its actual key

To be fair, Shub might not even be the strongest High 1-A now that she no longer scales above the Ultimate Gods. Of course if Hypnos becomes High 1-A then that's a different story. It's not that JUDY is weak but rather the fact that as of now, she's far too inferior to her opponent to affect her.

But who knows, maybe the Mythos might actually meet it's match in Twin Peaks in the near future. It's getting kinda dull how Umineko and the Masadaverse are the only verses it gets paired up with in versus matches.

 

[ShivaShakti]

...Can we not? Cthulhu Mythos hasn't had it's revisions yet.