Iihiko Shishime (Medaka Box) VS Ji Ning (Desolate Era)

[Planck69]

Also, to what extent does the Immunity take effect? Like, if Ning tried to lift the ground he's standing on to BFR, would it fail?

teleportation

It's unclear, but abilities that we know affect the user and not the target (Mother's Task makes the user skilled at anything considered motherly) were stated to have been used and not worked. This could also be backed up by stamina lost when fighting him not coming back, despite there not really being physical contact there.

Noted but I'm not sure how that's comparable to something that's not even affecting Iihiko at all. Unless he like negates all powers around him regardless of them touching him or not. Which would be a problem considering his really poor range.

cellular level regeneration

Iihiko has regeneration/healing/resurrection negation. He has negated healing that has been accepted as low-godly equivalent (All Fiction).

I see. Not exactly sure why that isn't really specified on the profile but I'll operate under the information that it does.

and sheer skill and agility

Iihiko's fought Ajimu a million times (iirc, number could be off) and won every time. He's fought and beaten the strongest people that have come up in the past few thousand years. Also speed's equal.

Coulh give a quick elaboration on Ajimu's skill as to why this is to be considered impressive? Don't really have any knowledge on her and repeated fights and wins are a decent skill feat but not really anything concrete.

Ning at this stage is superior to Celestial Immortal Unity in sword skill, the latter of whom has been fighting and training for around 1 trillion years.

He's far, far superior to when he was considered the most skilled Sword Immortal of the Grand Xia, where people who've studied and trained in the sword for 30,000 years couldn't compare to his 20 years of experience.

There's the whole outskilling whole teams of veteran fighters as a 10 year old while holding back to 10% with one arm (while he hasn't even grasped a wisp of the Three Realms Dao of the Sword) compared to now when he's mastered and comprehended the entire Grand Dao of the Sword.

As for agility, it's more based on mobility than speed in this case. He could dodge 10K arrows shot at him from all directions despite being well below Transonic at the time.

I mean, can he null soul manip? That's like the only real option left, and I don't see anyone in Medaka Box having soul manip.

Power null often isn't strictly limited to only working on the exact abilities it was used on in-verse. There'd have to be a reason for a certain ability to get around it. idk why soul manip would be different enough to not get nulled.

Fair.

Iihiko's range is ass.

Kinda, but also his punches have been shown to cause destruction reaching far enough to destroy a hospital. If him being lifted even works, he could just punch the land if it's small enough.

Lifting several kilometers of land and moving around billions of people and their territory is very commonplace for cultivators at his level (heck, his clone can an area that dwarfs Earth in surface area).

this seems less likely than Ning capturing him with any of his storage treasures and trapping him in a pocket dimension.

None of Ajimu's abilities worked on Iihiko, and she has an ability that brings people to pocket dimensions.

Well yeah, the point is that he gets around the range of the Immunity by basically chucking the battlefield into his pocket.

I would also point out that none of you have mentioned how Ning gets around Iihiko's supernatural luck.

Admittedly an issue. How good is it?

 

[Agnaa]

Noted but I'm not sure how that's comparable to something that's not even affecting Iihiko at all. Unless he like negates all powers around him regardless of them touching him or not. Which would be a problem considering his really poor range.

It's really unclear with how it works. Sometimes they activate abilities and they don't do anything useful. Sometimes they are said to have tried using them, with there being zero visual indicator of their use, implying they couldn't be activated.

Also, the range on it is incredibly unclear. No-one manages to beat him by, like, getting out of his range and then activating an ability. Really, the only range limit we're told for any ability in the series is line-of-sight.

The only stuff that's been shown to work on him are physical blows he hasn't seen before (which only work once, and can get reflected), and wordplay-based power systems which specifically bypass his defenses. And from the latter, the most promising methods were "Crash the moon into the Earth, destroying the Earth and probably killing Iihiko" and "Amplify your stats to be on his level and punch him to death". Sealing him, even in a way that would bypass his defenses, was seen as unlikely to work permanently (mid-right panel).

I see. Not exactly sure why that isn't really specified on the profile but I'll operate under the information that it does.

There's no good place to specify it, since we don't tend to give healing/resurrection regen-equivalent notation. It's just been something discussed in threads ages ago.

Skill

No point in explaining Ajimu's skill, since Ning's feats do sound more impressive now that you've typed them out.

Lifting several kilometers of land and moving around billions of people and their territory is very commonplace for cultivators at his level (heck, his clone can an area that dwarfs Earth in surface area).

Well yeah, the point is that he gets around the range of the Immunity by basically chucking the battlefield into his pocket.

Despite it being unclear what sort of range it has, this would be workable if we lowball it.

Admittedly an issue. How good is it?

This is probably the most promising way for Iihiko to snatch a win/incon.

• Common abnormals pull off one-in-a-million luck events on a daily basis. Common abnormals always roll 6's, always get a perfect hand of cards, even when in the presence of someone who makes nothing stray from its usual chances.
• Another "Hero", Medaka, was shown to force two one-in-a-million events in a row, and was stated to be able to do that a million times in a row. When she rolls dice, they stack up in a tower.
• For a more combat applicable thing, Heroes can have enemy's attacks miss vital areas, be spared by the whim of enemies, and come up with winning strategies in a pinch.
• Iihiko is a "Hero", and has managed to defeat 5 of them.

(If you want scans for any of these things I can give 'em, but there's a lot, so I don't wanna organize them unless it's necessary)

 

[Planck69]

Noted but I'm not sure how that's comparable to something that's not even affecting Iihiko at all. Unless he like negates all powers around him regardless of them touching him or not. Which would be a problem considering his really poor range.

It's really unclear with how it works. Sometimes they activate abilities and they don't do anything useful. Sometimes they are said to have tried using them, with there being zero visual indicator of their use, implying they couldn't be activated.

Also, the range on it is incredibly unclear. No-one manages to beat him by, like, getting out of his range and then activating an ability. Really, the only range limit we're told for any ability in the series is line-of-sight.

The only stuff that's been shown to work on him are physical blows he hasn't seen before (which only work once, and can get reflected), and wordplay-based power systems which specifically bypass his defenses. And from the latter, the most promising methods were "Crash the moon into the Earth, destroying the Earth and probably killing Iihiko" and "Amplify your stats to be on his level and punch him to death". Sealing him, even in a way that would bypass his defenses, was seen as unlikely to work permanently (mid-right panel).

I mean, if line of sight is an issue then Ning's Primaltwin can just act from within his pocket dimension estate and then BFR him. Not even mentioning the whole land moving.

Admittedly an issue. How good is it?

This is probably the most promising way for Iihiko to snatch a win/incon.

• Common abnormals pull off one-in-a-million luck events on a daily basis. Common abnormals always roll 6's, always get a perfect hand of cards, even when in the presence of someone who makes nothing stray from its usual chances.
• Another "Hero", Medaka, was shown to force two one-in-a-million events in a row, and was stated to be able to do that a million times in a row. When she rolls dice, they stack up in a tower.
• For a more combat applicable thing, Heroes can have enemy's attacks miss vital areas, be spared by the whim of enemies, and come up with winning strategies in a pinch.
• Iihiko is a "Hero", and has managed to defeat 5 of them.

(If you want scans for any of these things I can give 'em, but there's a lot, so I don't wanna organize them unless it's necessary)

Hmmm. Cultivators with Supernatural Luck exist i.e. those with high levels of karmic virtue and while Ning can kill them, their luck feats aren't all that good in comparison.

Does it like, help in altering people's minds? Because Ning's attacks are so wide scale that lucking out seems very, very unlikely so the only way I see this helping is making him think that he shouldn't go for the option at all.

 

[Agnaa]

Does it like, help in altering people's minds? Because Ning's attacks are so wide scale that lucking out seems very, very unlikely so the only way I see this helping is making him think that he shouldn't go for the option at all.

Yeah, the luck was used to help Medaka win an election with 98% of the vote, and had to be nullified to give anyone else a chance to win the next election. Also I'd say that "being spared by the whim of an enemy" counts as a mind-altering thing.

 

[Limbless_Athena]

Iihiko's fought Ajimu a million times (iirc, number could be off) and won every time. He's fought and beaten the strongest people that have come up in the past few thousand years. Also speed's equal.

y'know, this makes me wonder. why is the guy who beats Ajimu every time they fight allowed in threads when Ajimu is banned from them because of what this thing says?

Note: Due to the uncertainty regarding Ajimu's tiering, the nature of her abilities, and her portrayal within canon, she should not be used in versus threads.

someone make this make sense to me. the whole thread is basically debating whether or not Iihiko's walking nlf ability is good enough for him to just say no to everything the other guy can do, and the only way you can answer that is by making a decision on whether or not Ajimu's abilities/etc should be taken seriously.

 

[Agnaa]

y'know, this makes me wonder. why is the guy who beats Ajimu every time they fight allowed in threads when Ajimu is banned from them because everything about her is uncertain?

someone make this make sense to me.

For Ajimu, we've seen 17 of her abilities used in practice. We've been given names and short descriptions of around 700 abilities. And we've been told that she has over 12 quadrillion abilities. Some of her abilities we've seen the names of, but not seen in practice, include "become god", "transcend dimensions", and "control infinity".

We haven't really seen her fight. We've just seen her stomp a few characters with walls of ability names in the background (which if taken at face value, contradict the events of the story). If we were to include her in battles, so much of her stuff is unknown that, by the way our wiki works, she'd need to be lowballed to hell and back, making her end up a lot weaker in fights than a lot of people would like.

Because of this, she's historically been match-banned. I'd prefer for her not to be, but Ant really insists on her being banned, and no-one has cared enough to push back against it.

Iihiko's been seen in a lot more fights, he only has a few abilities, and they've all been decently well explained (albeit with some stuff missing, as seen in this thread, but that's par for the course in Medaka Box). But he was match-banned in the past.

 

[Fixxed]

jining CM2 still works here, due to the difference in level & power of each concept in the desolate era. because ji ning is a master of the dao of sword then Iihoko will still be affected unless he also has feats for resistance cm2 at a higher level

Daos were divided into levels as well. Rainwater, ice, and whatnot; these were all just some of the countless Daos of the natural world. But the Dao of the Sword, however, was on a higher level; it was a ‘Grand Dao’.

Book 7 41

This is the difference between ordinary Dao and Grand Dao

The path of mastering a Grand Dao is incomparably more difficult than the path of mastering an ordinary Dao; thousands of times more difficult. However, the power of a Grand Dao is also countless times greater. You must diligently train and not slacken off in the slightest.

Book 8 1

 

[Limbless_Athena]

For Ajimu, we've seen 17 of her abilities used in practice. We've been given names and short descriptions of around 700 abilities. And we've been told that she has over 12 quadrillion abilities. Some of her abilities we've seen the names of, but not seen in practice, include "become god", "transcend dimensions", and "control infinity".

We haven't really seen her fight. We've just seen her stomp a few characters with walls of ability names in the background (which if taken at face value, contradict the events of the story). If we were to include her in battles, so much of her stuff is unknown that, by the way our wiki works, she'd need to be lowballed to hell and back, making her end up a lot weaker in fights than a lot of people would like.

Because of this, she's historically been match-banned. I'd prefer for her not to be, but Ant really insists on her being banned, and no-one has cared enough to push back against it.

yeah, I think that's stupid. if you go by that logic, you shouldn't be able to use Iihiko in a match either because he's beaten her every time they fought and the limits of his ability are defined by the limits of hers. (his ability is the reason he beats her all the time IIRC)

whatever though. i'm probably gonna get told to go 'make a thread' if i say anything else about it, so i guess i'll drop the subject. i just think it makes no sense.

EDIT: "no-one has cared enough to push back against it". yeah, i believe that.

 

[Agnaa]

@Fixxed Iihiko's nullification of concept manip comes from stopping All Fiction from working, which Kumagawa said could be used to make the concept of time as if it never existed, and for erasing colour across the universe, making it so that colour-based abilities wouldn't work (this one seems a lil more sus to me, but that's what we accept it as).

There is no higher level of concept manip in the verse.

 

[Planck69]

@Fixxed Iihiko's nullification of concept manip comes from stopping All Fiction from working, which Kumagawa said could be used to make the concept of time as if it never existed, and for erasing colour across the universe, making it so that colour-based abilities wouldn't work (this one seems a lil more sus to me, but that's what we accept it as).

There is no higher level of concept manip in the verse.

In that case then Iihiko's Null will work. The Daos Ning can currently wield aren't on the scale of a universe yet and those in DE that are (Prime Essences) are pretty far from him.

 

[Fixxed]

There is no higher level of concept manip in the verse.

Sadly, because the desolate era really shows superiority over the different levels of a concept, this is one of the functions of the dao domain= CM2, fear manip, immobile. Even can even undo your Will.

this is an example of a user from dao domain

-But suddenly…

The world went silent.

The river of lava, previously flowing in the opposite direction, came to a halt.

The spraying water of the underground river froze in midair.

The stones that had been blasted into the skies froze there.

Ning was still in the pose of executing the Windwing Evasion and retreating frantically…

Northson was standing in front of the grand sealing barrier, unmoving…

Even the incomparably massive Dragonwhale Diremonster that was floating in the air had come to a halt. Its dragon-whiskers that had been dancing in the air were now frozen there.

In this instant, it was as though everything in this region had gone still. But Ning, Northson, the Azure Skysnake, and the Dragonwhale King, these four living creatures, knew very well that this wasn’t the case!

“This is…” Ning could feel an incomparably powerful force instantly descend, so powerful as to completely suppress him. He felt like an ant atop of an iceberg, completely unable to move. He even felt as though he couldn’t change his facial expressions. That surge of power was simply too massive.

“What…what is going on?” Ning was completely stunned and uneasy. His soul was pulsing at him, screaming of a terrifyingly great danger. Ning had the feeling that whatever threat had appeared was capable of instantly annihilating him.

……

“What…what’s this??!” Northson, who had just reached the grand sealing formation, was incomparably frantic as well. In his heart, he was also completely stunned. He felt as though he had been completely suppressed and sealed away; he couldn’t even move a single finger. He could also see that even the rocks in midair weren’t moving at all, causing him to feel all the more horrified.



…….

The Dragonwhale was stunned as well. It was a Primal Diremonster, and a Dragonwhale at that; how incredibly great was its power? With but a single flip of its body, it could shatter the heavens and break the earth. And yet, in this instant, its massive body hung there in midair, completely unable to move.

“I’ve already reached the Primal stage. What power is this, which is capable of preventing me from even fighting back? Even Immortals shouldn’t be this powerful. Can it be a Celestial Immortal? Or a Loose Immortal who has lived for hundreds of thousands or millions of years?” The Dragonwhale’s heart was filled with many thoughts as well, and it too was both terrified and restless.

…….

Although Ning didn’t move at all, he could still see. “Is that…?!” Ning suddenly stared in astonishment as the distant, bubbling river of lava began to part. The entire earth began to crack open, as a massive, fiery red hand, wreathed in lava, emerged from it. This hand…just staring at it, Ning became filled with despair

- Am I going to die?” The Azure Skysnake was coiled around Northson’s arms. She was able to see the towering, vast, ancient Fiendgod from the corner of her eyes. The feeling that ancient Fiendgod gave her was that of the vast universe itself; she couldn’t even bring herself to want to try to resist.

Book 8 33

And this is the feats if dao domain can also undo your will

The protective sword-ki within the brooch tried to charge out, but it was pressed down upon by an invisible, formless strength, preventing it from emerging.

It was pushed back inside!

Ning willed it to activate again.

But yet again, it was pushed back inside!

“How can this be?” Ning now felt truly powerless.

Book 8 33 fiendgod

And ji Ning use the same technique but in the higher Level&power

It was because he was thinking back to the ancient Fiendgod he had met back in the wild marshes of the Gaol Mountains. “When I had encountered that ancient Fiendgod, the Dao Domain the Fiendgod unleashed was enough to freeze everything, causing me to be unable to move…and now, I just used the exact same sort of technique to kill a squad that was far more powerful than I was back then, led by that Primal Diremonster.”

Now, just how Iihiko counter this attack, because ji ning is able to make lihiko immobile and is able to make iihiko into a punch bag

 

[Planck69]

@Fixxed
Chaosworld Daos aren't on the scale of an entire universe so I dunno how higher levels will change stuff here.

And Iihiko has power null on attacks that land on him, it's why I'm no longer arguing on that front.

 

[Fixxed]

Chaosworld Daos aren't on the scale of an entire universe so I dunno how higher levels will change stuff here

but it was a dimension that had its own causality system and each chaosworld had a different dao. rather sure if we will treat lesser dao as baseline concept type 2

 

[Delta333]

but it was a dimension that had its own causality system and each chaosworld had a different dao. rather sure if we will treat lesser dao as baseline concept type 2

If we follow our weird rule of conceptual manip page then large scale concept is always superior (similar to how cm type 3 is treated to be inferior to type 2 since it only operates on more specific scale personally)

 

[PrinceofPein]

Lihiko should not be allowed in vs matches due to the fact that his entire ability is NLF
And yes, to determine the limit of his ability we have to know Ajimu abilities

 

[Agnaa]

Lihiko should not be allowed in vs matches due to the fact that his entire ability is NLF
And yes, to determine the limit of his ability we have to know Ajimu abilities

His ability isn't NLF.

• Omni-Weapon Proficiency just means he doesn't need any particular weapon to attack.
• Subjective Immunity doesn't work on abilities that resist power-null, that are linguistic-based, are higher-dimensional, or otherwise have reason to not be nullified.
• Irreversible Destruction doesn't work on healing via rewinding time, on healing that resists power null, or on mid-godly or above regen.
• Supernatural Luck doesn't work on characters with superior luck, nor does it work on characters with sufficiently good power null/resistance.
• Possession only works if a backup is prepared.

For reference to Ajimu, we use Ajimu's durability, and the skills we know the functionality of. Skills with one-line names and descriptions are ignored (as these are the only ones that are indexed).

 

[Agnaa]

Oh, I forgot to mention, Medaka's luck made Ajimu (who can, but usually doesn't, utilize omniscience) think she'd be unable to beat Medaka, despite being physically far superior to Medaka, and being able to nullify every other ability Medaka has (and, as I said, having access to omniscience). Iihiko has comparable luck.

Remembering that, I'm confident enough in saying that Iihiko's luck will net him a win. Luck on his level seems to have been able to force wins in far more dire situations.

 

[Planck69]

I'm personally extremely averse to stuff like "he wins cause he has supernatural luck" and no elaboration as to how that would come about but that's just me.

Anyway, would that mind altering luck even work on Ning's Primaltwin? He's in a pocket dimension but still aware of the outside world so he could just notice his main body acting weird and take action remotely.

 

[DaimaouAshura]

Oh, I forgot to mention, Medaka's luck made Ajimu (who can, but usually doesn't, utilize omniscience) think she'd be unable to beat Medaka, despite being physically far superior to Medaka, and being able to nullify every other ability Medaka has (and, as I said, having access to omniscience). Iihiko has comparable luck.

Remembering that, I'm confident enough in saying that Iihiko's luck will net him a win. Luck on his level seems to have been able to force wins in far more dire situations.

That's a debatable point I wouldn't bet the entire outcome of the match on. Iihiko beat Ajimu all those times, but on Medaka's case Ajimu was still partially sealed, had her Omniscience turned off yes. Medaka later states she would have no chance of fighting Ajimu when seeing her unsealed and a sealed Ajimu found a way to indirectly beat Medaka through Zenkichi and the elections without issue, all going exactly as she had planned. It's much easier to believe Iihiko stomped Ajimu with his powers like he did with the rubber band whenever needed, instead of relying on his luck for it.

 

[Agnaa]

@Planck69 If you want me to elaborate more, Ning will spare Iihiko, have a vital attack miss, or otherwise attempt to win but fail in a way that gets him in range to get bashed by Iihiko and left unable to regenerate.

I don't know enough about the Primaltwin stuff to say. I don't know how we consider that sort of thing to interface with luck.

@DaimaouAshura I do believe that Iihiko stomped Ajimu with his powers without relying on luck. But Medaka's luck feats are still relevant.

While Ajimu was still partially sealed, she nevertheless did have an ability that let her nullify Medaka's skills, and did have impressive physical stats at the time.

Also, the way she indirectly beat Medaka through Zenkichi involved turning Zenkichi into a Hero, which I think still highlights Hero-ness as being important. It's not just that she needed a complicated plan; she needed a complicated plan that gave someone else that level of luck.

(And I wouldn't quite say exactly as she had planned, in Good Loser Kumagawa she initially tried turning Kumagawa into a Hero, but that didn't end up working out)

 

[Planck69]

Honestly, how does Luck interface with range anyway? Like, would a planetbusting attack he averted by luck from a a character with a hundred meter range or what?

 

[Agnaa]

Honestly, how does Luck interface with range anyway?

Completely unclear.

Like, would a planetbusting attack he averted by luck from a a character with a hundred meter range or what?

I don't understand this question.

 

[Planck69]

Like, would a planetbusting attack he averted by luck from a a character with a hundred meter range or what?

I don't understand this question.

Say, Alice has Supernatural Luck that allows attacks to miss, enemies to reconsider their options etc. but it's only shown to work in a hundred meters around her or so.

Would it help against something that massively overcomes her range, such as a large scale attack?

 

[Zaratthustra]

Basically, he means that X has shown to be able to make enemy miss hitting him but can he do it to attacks that cover the entire planet...basically no space will be left undamaged by the attack.

 

[Agnaa]

While to some extent that's unclear, Medaka believed that destroying the Earth would kill Iihiko.

But for general wiki acceptance of those sorts of probability feats, I have no idea.

 

[Agnaa]

Something to consider would be the idea that the attack coming close (or even suggestions such as floating him into a pocket dimension) would require something of relevance being near him. The shockwaves of the earth coming near might get probability hax'd/power null'd, being near the portal might power null the portal.

 

[DaimaouAshura]

While Ajimu was still partially sealed, she nevertheless did have an ability that let her nullify Medaka's skills, and did have impressive physical stats at the time.

Also, the way she indirectly beat Medaka through Zenkichi involved turning Zenkichi into a Hero, which I think still highlights Hero-ness as being important. It's not just that she needed a complicated plan; she needed a complicated plan that gave someone else that level of luck.

(And I wouldn't quite say exactly as she had planned, in Good Loser Kumagawa she initially tried turning Kumagawa into a Hero, but that didn't end up working out)

That's fair and I agree it's an asset. Just not one I'd rely on too much to decide the outcome here with everything considered. And haven't read Kumagawa novels yet, but got it on the last line.