Ichigo not been able to dodge or block Gin Zanpakuto

[Ryuuzakiscorpio]

Ichigo blocked his sword.




Ichigo could see it.




And Counter it:




Here Gin is refering to the Sword Speed, so in combat it would be their speed + the sword speed.




Her even Toshiro a slower character could do it back in SS Arc

 

[WestWood7]

So they have mach 500 reaction speed ?

 

[Ryuuzakiscorpio]

So they have mach 500 reaction speed ?

Reaction Speed is different from Combat Speed and Travel Speed.

Ichigo should at least be around mach 286 during the fight with Kuchiki. And no I am not speculating.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_large/11112/111126290/4905312-ichigo+speed+1.jpg

The databook says that he was fighting at lightning speed. And then we have feat to prove it on panel. If you guys are wondering where I got the mach 286 speed from here is the link.

http://www.maine.gov/mema/prepare/prep_display.shtml?163524

Lightning moving at 220,000 mph would put it at a lil bit above mach 286.

So we actually have a quantifiable speed feat to start off with.

The databook says "like lighting" making Ichigo lighting speed. He even react and blitzed a lighting timer character in Shikai. So, Ichigo is at least low-end lighting speed.

This somehow was not accepted:

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/148667

Which i also found fishy. Maybe some of you can make this calc again.

 

[Mr.SoloYourFav]

First of all, anything you say about Gin's bankai speed is dubious at best since he confessed that he was lying about both how fast and how long it was.


You could bring in the old "He only lied to Aizen" excuse but not only wasn't that mentioned anywhere, it would also mean that Gin is stupid enough to risk blowing his cover by telling Aizen something then telling Ichigo another when Aizen was in their proximity fighting Isshin. So in short, the very foundation of your argument is shaky and cannot be trusted.

Now to address the instances you posted.

1) Ichigo blocked his sword.

Nothing impressive here. Ichigo blocked a horizontal sword swing not a direct thrust from the blade extending, which is what Gin was hyping to be that fast.



This isn't any different from someone using a flashlight. Just because the light from the flashlight moves at light speed does not mean that the one holding the flash light can point it at you at the speed of light. Similarly just because the sword can supposedly extend at such speed does not mean that Gin can move his arm just as fast.

2) Ichigo could see it.

No. Ichigo could not see it. He himslef had mentioned this more than once during their battle and even went as far as to state that he would be dead if he isn't careful enough not to let Gin aim it directly at him.



There would be no reason for Ichigo to be shocked upon hearing how fast the sword supposedly is if he could react and counter such speed. "Then I'm done for if I let him point the tip of his sword at me" This means that any instance where Ichigo countered or blocked Gin's bankai was a case of aim-dodging, that is to say, dodging based on Gin's aim instead of reacting to the sword itself. This is usually how peak human characters dodge bullets or even lasers : By reacting to the user instead of the projectile.

3) Here Gin is refering to the Sword Speed, so in combat it would be their speed + the sword speed.

LOL NO.

Gin was referring to the speed at which his bankai can extend and contract, not the speed at which he can swing his sword.


"The most terrifying ability of your Bankai... It's the speed at which it extends and contracts"


"I'll tell you how fast Kamishini No Yari extends"

This means that any feat where the sword was swung is entirely irrelevant. 4) Her even Toshiro a slower character could do it back in SS Arc

Another irrelevant feat. Toshiro reacted to the speed at which Gin's shikai extends not the speed at which his Bankai does.

So To summarize, not only do you have no way to prove that Gin's Bankai is anywhere near as fast as his claimed for it to be making any related feat irrelevant, but you also don't have any feat where someone reacted to the sword directly outside of a case of reacting to Gin's aim, which is normal because not even Aizen could do it :


So there is no way slower characters could do it.

 

[CHILLVIBEZZ]

Besides Gin"s Bankai was there any other MHS feats? Pre time skip?

 

[Ryuuzakiscorpio]

Despite the fact that Gin said that Ichigo was able to dodge the second one.

Ichigo also counter it head on.

And dodge it:

About Aizen, he planned for Gin to kill him in order for him to evolve, he didn't need to dodge if he wanted to get killed.


http://pm1.narvii.com/5779/ba584bfb74f71e6cb478c47fd46e00c2c08ea795_hq.jpg


http://i.fastmangu.com/70dfb7dcb4e5d9c4345a076c622f7de2.jpg?v=1369122896

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_Tr10y00sz1M/TGyviaWDZbI/AAAAAAAAEmQ/IHxgUq8ntDE/07[6].png?imgmax=1600

 

[WestWood7]

Ichigo clearly said that Gin wasn't serious against him ( he said that while he was fighting Ginjo ) and he was aimdodging his Shikai's strikes.

Gin could've killed him during the fight ( when he aimed the point of his sword at him, he suddenly held back ).


And Aizen never planned for Gin to kill him in order to evolve, he said that he was curious to see how Gin would attempt to kill him, he didn't knew that he had such a hax Bankai, he was surprised when Gin used it, Aizen was clearly surprised when Gin impaled him with his Shikai.


And I don't see why Gin would've lied to Ichigo, he said to Aizen "I told you about my bankai a while ago", why didn't he just said "I lied about my bankai's ability" ?

He also claimed that he had the fastest Zanpakuto.

 

[Ryuuzakiscorpio]

Ginjo? What does he has to do with this? He is irrevelant to this.

So Gin can suddenly control the speed of his bankai because? It was never hinted in the story. Going easy doesn't mean the sword will become slower.

His plan was to wait and see how Gin would kill him. He was no surprise by it, he was surprise because he never knew Gin Zanpakuto true power.

Aizen cleary says it. In order to evolve he need to break that boundry which he could only achieved after Gin killed him, so he wws waiting for that to happen. He even said that he was waiting to see how Gin would try and kill him.

People assume that Aizen could heard Gin, in order to disproof that fact.

 

[WestWood7]

Ginjo? What does he has to do with this? He is irrevelant to this.
So Gin can suddenly control the speed of his bankai because? It was never hinted in the story. Going easy doesn't mean the sword will become slower.

His plan was to wait and see how Gin would kill him. He was no surprise by it, he was surprise because he never knew Gin Zanpakuto true power.

Aizen cleary says it. In order to evolve he need to break that boundry which he could only achieved after Gin killed him, so he wws waiting for that to happen. He even said that he was waiting to see how Gin would try and kill him.

People assume that Aizen could heard Gin, in order to disproof that fact.

Never said that he could control the speed of his Shikai I said ""Gin could've killed him during the fight ( when he aimed the point of his sword at him, he suddenly held back )."" There is nothing about changing the speed of his Shikai here.


Now for Aizen, he didn't knew about Gin's Bankai so he believed that he wasn't lying about his speed/length so there is no way he had planned this kind of plan because he couldn't be killed by it. We can see it in chapter 414, he tought that his Bankai was the same ability he showed against Ichigo, he clearly said that it was unfortunate for Gin because using ( what he tought to be his real Bankai ) it wasn't enough to kill him.

 

[Non-Bias]

First of all, anything you say about Gin's bankai speed is dubious at best since he confessed that he was lying about both how fast and how long it was.

You could bring in the old "He only lied to Aizen" excuse but not only wasn't that mentioned anywhere, it would also mean that Gin is stupid enough to risk blowing his cover by telling Aizen something then telling Ichigo another when Aizen was in their proximity fighting Isshin. So in short, the very foundation of your argument is shaky and cannot be trusted.

Now to address the instances you posted.

1) Ichigo blocked his sword.

Nothing impressive here. Ichigo blocked a horizontal sword swing not a direct thrust from the blade extending, which is what Gin was hyping to be that fast.



This isn't any different from someone using a flashlight. Just because the light from the flashlight moves at light speed does not mean that the one holding the flash light can point it at you at the speed of light. Similarly just because the sword can supposedly extend at such speed does not mean that Gin can move his arm just as fast.

2) Ichigo could see it.

No. Ichigo could not see it. He himslef had mentioned this more than once during their battle and even went as far as to state that he would be dead if he isn't careful enough not to let Gin aim it directly at him.



There would be no reason for Ichigo to be shocked upon hearing how fast the sword supposedly is if he could react and counter such speed. "Then I'm done for if I let him point the tip of his sword at me" This means that any instance where Ichigo countered or blocked Gin's bankai was a case of aim-dodging, that is to say, dodging based on Gin's aim instead of reacting to the sword itself. This is usually how peak human characters dodge bullets or even lasers : By reacting to the user instead of the projectile.

3) Here Gin is refering to the Sword Speed, so in combat it would be their speed + the sword speed.

LOL NO.

Gin was referring to the speed at which his bankai can extend and contract, not the speed at which he can swing his sword.


"The most terrifying ability of your Bankai... It's the speed at which it extends and contracts"


"I'll tell you how fast Kamishini No Yari extends"

This means that any feat where the sword was swung is entirely irrelevant. 4) Her even Toshiro a slower character could do it back in SS Arc

Another irrelevant feat. Toshiro reacted to the speed at which Gin's shikai extends not the speed at which his Bankai does.

So To summarize, not only do you have no way to prove that Gin's Bankai is anywhere near as fast as his claimed for it to be making any related feat irrelevant, but you also don't have any feat where someone reacted to the sword directly outside of a case of reacting to Gin's aim, which is normal because not even Aizen could do it :


So there is no way slower characters could do it.

This.

 

[Ryuuzakiscorpio]

Yeah does photos are true but then out of the blue Ichigo was matching him. Gin even said so. LoL Is that PIS?

And you assume Aizen couldn't dodge it when he was expecting to be kill and be near death in order to break the "fear" boundry an evolve.

You assume they where fighiting near Aizen, when this is not shown anywhere until they arrive at his location. Lol

This was a direct attack, is shown in the anime. It only got curve after Ichigo block it and re-directed.

 

[Piercer_of_Heaven]

I agree Ichigo should be upgraded based on:

SS Arc Ichigo was stated to be similar to lightning. It's legit because he was also stated to have the fastest Bankai fighting Speed, even though Chojiro's Bankai literally shoots natural lightning.

In FKT Arc, Hollowfied Ichigo was able to completely evade Gin's Buto Renjin from close range, which is even faster than the normal extention.

Hollowfication is comparable in power boost to a resurrección which is comparable in boost to a Captains Bankai.

Additionally, SS Arc Ichigo is actually very comparable to FKT Arc Ichigo. Ichigo has only gotten weaker since SS Arc, until becoming his older self in strength in FKT Arc.

Reasons to suggest this are:

He was implied to be two times Unohana by Unohana herself in FKT.

Ichigo bodied Byakuya casually in SS Arc, a high tier captain.

Yet previously, Ichigo in Bankai was getting beaten by Base Grimmjow and needed Hollowfiction to overpower Base Ulquiorra before getting rekt by his first Resurrección.

Meanwhile, Byakuya matches Espada 7 mid difficulty, Kenpachi matches Nnoitra extreme difficulty and Toshiro counters Harribel's most powerful attack, then oneshots her with a single technique.

Even if you disagree, all it would mean is everyone would scale even higher.

So, Ichigo should be MHS in reaction/combat speed in Bankai and MHS+ in reaction/combat speed with his Hollowfication. Not many characters would scale though. From the top of my head I would say:

Gin, Isshin, Urahara, Yoruichi, Aizen, Yamamoto and possibly R2 Ulquiorra all scale.

 

[PaChi2]

This necro'd thread should be a content revision

@Piercer I suggest you make a new content revision thread instead of discussing this here.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

So much necro, i need holy water.

I'm closing this thread.The topic has already been overdiscussed.