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Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou CRT
- Thread starter Ionliosite
- Start date
- Status
- 10,883
- 12,293
"Akuto has created every story that can be described. These include stories with people like Akuto himself that can create stories, and as such form an infinite hierarchy of stories within stories. One story can contain multiverses, higher dimensions and beings that can exist even after the destruction of all dimensional space."
Is how I would put it for Akuto's page. Idk maybe you guys can come up with something better.
Is how I would put it for Akuto's page. Idk maybe you guys can come up with something better.
- 15,920
- 2,693
- Thread starter
- #203
Matthew has already expressed he disagrees with the "infinite hierarchy" thing.
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Yes. The Infinite Hierarchy of Story-Storyteller is something that is merely speculated by Akuto Sai in Vol 11 even before he enters the Afterlife, and as such has ****-all to do with Writer Akuto in the void above the Afterlife. No mention to any infinite hierarchy of any sorts is brought up.
In fact, the "Infinite Hierarchy" quote is what makes me accept 1-A Afterlife in the first place.
In fact, the "Infinite Hierarchy" quote is what makes me accept 1-A Afterlife in the first place.
- 10,883
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It is a logical consequence of him creating all stories while being in a story. By the definitions given he inadvertedly creates a recursion.Matthew Schroeder said:
We have seen that storytellers within stories are possible after all.
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You are extrapolating. At no point is it said that Akuto was creating his own story inside his story since we know that Akuto's story was written by someone else entirely. I disagree with this Hierarchy thing alltogether.
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I am not extrapolating beyond the very clear informations the work gives us.
The work tells us:
1) The world (including the afterlife) is a story.
2) Any logically possible story (Any story that can be described in text) is created by Akuto.
Saying Akuto creates Marvel would be extrapolating beyond this work.
However, that Akuto creates something that in this work is officially a story, that is 1), is something that has to be the case if you don't want to ignore the clear descriptions on this matter the novel gives you.
The work tells us:
1) The world (including the afterlife) is a story.
2) Any logically possible story (Any story that can be described in text) is created by Akuto.
Saying Akuto creates Marvel would be extrapolating beyond this work.
However, that Akuto creates something that in this work is officially a story, that is 1), is something that has to be the case if you don't want to ignore the clear descriptions on this matter the novel gives you.
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The ONLY thing we get is that the hierarchy of stories is beneath the Afterlife.
Then in the Afterlife, which the characters eventually discover is a story as well, Akuto tries creating "all possible stories".
Any hierarchies he creates would by necessity be below the Afterlife. This is so incredibly clear that I can't believe we're even having this discussion. The notion that Akuto would write his own story in the Afterlife is ridiculous. The text doesn't imply that and you acting like it is the most logical conclusion to be had is pretty reach. It is an extrapolation.
Not on the same level as Akuto creating Marvel (Which is sheer trolling wank, and also I should note a rather extreme example designed to make what you're saying reasonable by comparison), but an extrapolation nonetheless.
The only quote about any "hierarchy" we have is a volume before the Afterlife shit kicks in. The two have no correlation whatsoever.
Then in the Afterlife, which the characters eventually discover is a story as well, Akuto tries creating "all possible stories".
Any hierarchies he creates would by necessity be below the Afterlife. This is so incredibly clear that I can't believe we're even having this discussion. The notion that Akuto would write his own story in the Afterlife is ridiculous. The text doesn't imply that and you acting like it is the most logical conclusion to be had is pretty reach. It is an extrapolation.
Not on the same level as Akuto creating Marvel (Which is sheer trolling wank, and also I should note a rather extreme example designed to make what you're saying reasonable by comparison), but an extrapolation nonetheless.
The only quote about any "hierarchy" we have is a volume before the Afterlife shit kicks in. The two have no correlation whatsoever.
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Also, again, we explicitely have a writer for Akuto's story and it is not himself. This extrapolation flies in the face of the basic plot of the novel.
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Akuto and other Storytellers are just 1-A
The Void Body and the New Law of Identity are High 1-A
The Void Body and the New Law of Identity are High 1-A
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This is the hierarchy in the afterlife.
"No, you wouldn't have." Akuto smiled too. "But we stand on the same stage. We're probably the only ones who haven't become a concept."
"A concept?"
"You can't understand someone's personality just by looking at them, but now I can truly experience them. Even if other people's reactions are mechanical in nature, we have no way of determining it. What resides within me right now may be the countless personalities of all existing people."
"If a different object with the same name is placed in a box that only the individual can open, can conversation still be achieved?" asked Hiroshi. "If a foreign language dictionary has a sample greeting section and you communicate using that, can you still call it a conversation?"
Akuto looked amused.
"Yes. It definitely isn't like you to respond like that."
"While here, I am a synthesis of the concept of Brave," explained Hiroshi with a grin.
"I see. So a concept is a concept."
"I do understand what you're saying, though. The only ones given an incarnation in the Law of Identity's world are you and me. Wouldn't incarnation be the best term for being equal concepts before the creator? So in your world, the people inside are equally given an incarnation."
"I may be the creator here, but I don't feel like a god. What I can feel is that stories are binding us. Even when I create worlds, I am only free in which story I choose and to what degree I take that story. In the end, I want to destroy that and escape this world."
Akuto sounded sad.
"You want to destroy the stories? You've reconfirmed what your ultimate objective is, haven't you?"
"It seems so. I thought it would be easy when I first made up my mind. That was back when I decided to kill the gods."
(..)
Most likely, he would have no choice but to call that a variation of the ultimate form of a story. If one focused on an age of limited resources, they could even find stories that were nothing but eating one's fill. In every age, people wished to interact with others who were more fortunate.
He had already used millennia on this, but he began to have more than just a suspicion that the stories were hiding within humans.
(..)
"The stories can only be viewed as a virus. Originally, life should have been complete once it was created in the Anti-Gravity Universe. No matter how complex the cells grew or how complex the reflection became, the life forms would only hunt, kill, and reproduce. That is all. There would be no sin or forgiveness there."
"But the extra-universal gods brought the story of unreasonable death into me. Its story density should be fairly low."
"In that case, unreasonable death is a natural thing. No reason is needed to kill. That would explain it."
"Nevertheless, we avoid meaningless killing."
"Avoidance of killing is due to the stories, yet you claimed the stories were the cause of mass murder."
Bouichirou's words caused Akuto to think once more and he summoned someone else.
It was Marine. He had once ruled the Republic, wielded the Formless Power, and fought Akuto. He had not wished for it, but he had caused the destruction of the world.
"I feel like I was called here to represent an ideology and it annoys me a little."
Just like the other summoned ghosts, Marine started by complaining.
"It seems like ghosts are always complaining to me," said Akuto with a shrug.
"Of course they are. You killed us. But you at least had the courage to face me without fearing criticism. I'll grant you that."
Marine gave a hearty laugh and did not hesitate to sit in one of the chairs.
"Since you're my ghost, that might count as self-praise," complained Akuto.
"Don't worry about it," said Marine. "Both humans and ghosts cannot distinguish themselves from others."
"Yes. That is exactly why I think we hesitate to kill. If we truly viewed ourselves as distinct, humans would have no laws outside of the biological ones."
"That is a positive side to the stories. Others exist inside us as ghosts and our love for that fact leads us to avoid preying on and killing them. Reproduction and dividing must hold the advantage."
Marine looked at Akuto as if to ask him if he finally understood.
"But I view you as a manifestation of the negative side." Akuto looked back at Marine. "That is why you are here."
"This could easily revert to a rudimentary argument. The state of ghosts creates others. The ghosts of the Republic's people are persecuted by the ghosts of the imperial people. Pointing that out as an illusion is to cast aside the positive side."
Marine's reply was decisive and Akuto grimaced as if it had hit him where it hurt.
"I see. So I was the type to throw out the positive side along with the negative side."
"No, you wouldn't have." Akuto smiled too. "But we stand on the same stage. We're probably the only ones who haven't become a concept."
"A concept?"
"You can't understand someone's personality just by looking at them, but now I can truly experience them. Even if other people's reactions are mechanical in nature, we have no way of determining it. What resides within me right now may be the countless personalities of all existing people."
"If a different object with the same name is placed in a box that only the individual can open, can conversation still be achieved?" asked Hiroshi. "If a foreign language dictionary has a sample greeting section and you communicate using that, can you still call it a conversation?"
Akuto looked amused.
"Yes. It definitely isn't like you to respond like that."
"While here, I am a synthesis of the concept of Brave," explained Hiroshi with a grin.
"I see. So a concept is a concept."
"I do understand what you're saying, though. The only ones given an incarnation in the Law of Identity's world are you and me. Wouldn't incarnation be the best term for being equal concepts before the creator? So in your world, the people inside are equally given an incarnation."
"I may be the creator here, but I don't feel like a god. What I can feel is that stories are binding us. Even when I create worlds, I am only free in which story I choose and to what degree I take that story. In the end, I want to destroy that and escape this world."
Akuto sounded sad.
"You want to destroy the stories? You've reconfirmed what your ultimate objective is, haven't you?"
"It seems so. I thought it would be easy when I first made up my mind. That was back when I decided to kill the gods."
(..)
Most likely, he would have no choice but to call that a variation of the ultimate form of a story. If one focused on an age of limited resources, they could even find stories that were nothing but eating one's fill. In every age, people wished to interact with others who were more fortunate.
He had already used millennia on this, but he began to have more than just a suspicion that the stories were hiding within humans.
(..)
"The stories can only be viewed as a virus. Originally, life should have been complete once it was created in the Anti-Gravity Universe. No matter how complex the cells grew or how complex the reflection became, the life forms would only hunt, kill, and reproduce. That is all. There would be no sin or forgiveness there."
"But the extra-universal gods brought the story of unreasonable death into me. Its story density should be fairly low."
"In that case, unreasonable death is a natural thing. No reason is needed to kill. That would explain it."
"Nevertheless, we avoid meaningless killing."
"Avoidance of killing is due to the stories, yet you claimed the stories were the cause of mass murder."
Bouichirou's words caused Akuto to think once more and he summoned someone else.
It was Marine. He had once ruled the Republic, wielded the Formless Power, and fought Akuto. He had not wished for it, but he had caused the destruction of the world.
"I feel like I was called here to represent an ideology and it annoys me a little."
Just like the other summoned ghosts, Marine started by complaining.
"It seems like ghosts are always complaining to me," said Akuto with a shrug.
"Of course they are. You killed us. But you at least had the courage to face me without fearing criticism. I'll grant you that."
Marine gave a hearty laugh and did not hesitate to sit in one of the chairs.
"Since you're my ghost, that might count as self-praise," complained Akuto.
"Don't worry about it," said Marine. "Both humans and ghosts cannot distinguish themselves from others."
"Yes. That is exactly why I think we hesitate to kill. If we truly viewed ourselves as distinct, humans would have no laws outside of the biological ones."
"That is a positive side to the stories. Others exist inside us as ghosts and our love for that fact leads us to avoid preying on and killing them. Reproduction and dividing must hold the advantage."
Marine looked at Akuto as if to ask him if he finally understood.
"But I view you as a manifestation of the negative side." Akuto looked back at Marine. "That is why you are here."
"This could easily revert to a rudimentary argument. The state of ghosts creates others. The ghosts of the Republic's people are persecuted by the ghosts of the imperial people. Pointing that out as an illusion is to cast aside the positive side."
Marine's reply was decisive and Akuto grimaced as if it had hit him where it hurt.
"I see. So I was the type to throw out the positive side along with the negative side."
John985
He/Him- 3,491
- 561
Pretty sure it was mention here by Matt
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3612613#170
then
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3612613#172
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3612613#170
then
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3612613#172
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The world below afterlife ?, you mean the human world ?.
•akuto wrote his personal story to try to end the story, of course, he didn't succeed because that was the role of hiroshi. (Those who have read the verse will know that Daimaou's author is an incarnation of hiroshi and the world in which he lives is the story with the lowest density that can exist in the afterlife.)
"So you say the demon king has altered the afterlife?" asked Brave with hands on his hips.
"He alters it all the time, but this time he altogether erased it."
"Erased it? You mean he's resetting it to redo it?"
"Yes. It seems the afterlife was a world the demon king has free control over. He likely realized that thanks to the knowledge of those around him."
Bouichirou sounded fairly bewildered.
"Free control? I thought that place granted everyone's wishes and his will was simply the strongest."
Brave was suspicious because the dead had been there before the demon king.
"It is possible the memories of those people were only created once the demon king arrived. It would be impossible for them to be aware of it, however."
Brave accepted that explanation, but his expression did not change.
"That's based on the theory that no one would realize it if the world and all our memories were created five minutes ago. I'm familiar with that, but if it's true…what does that make us?"
"That is a natural question, but it is a difficult one to answer as we are on the inside." Bouichirou chose his words carefully. "However, if we assume the entire universe was created by the Law of Identity, it means we are fictional beings, as is the demon king."
"That's what you were talking about before, isn't it?"
"The afterlife exists on the inside and we can think of it as existing inside the demon king."
"Yeah," agreed Brave. "I get it. We all died and were resurrected. But it was the demon king that resurrected us."
"That is how I understand it. The world has been reconstructed as data. Just as the former computer gods attempted to do."
"Then why did he erase it and try to redo it? If he's on the level of a god, why didn't he accept the world he created?"
"Based on his words, I assume it be because that was a world of an eternal ending."
(..)
"I don't really get it."
Brave had been frowning this whole time.
"He realized there is no story in satisfying his own desires."
"I realized that before he did. Otherwise, I would have been living with my girlfriend in this world."
"We cannot do that. That is simply the type of existence we are."
Hearing that, Brave finally changed his expression.
"Existence? You explained that earlier, didn't you?"
"If the people of the afterlife are fictional characters, we alone exist. The two of us and the demon king."
"The two of us and the demon king?"
Brave was taken aback.
"We may have been chosen by the Law of Identity. We were chosen as side characters, but we were still given important parts to play."
Bouichirou's expression was oddly calm.
"I do feel like destiny is playing a hand in things. And we weren't wrapped up in what just happened."
"The demon king is redoing the story itself and he will likely study the result by using the people…no, the characters of the afterlife."
That was Bouichirou's conclusion and Brave accepted it.
"But there's no way he can do that."
"Yes. As he did not succeed the first time, he cannot succeed the second time unless someone else's power is at work."
"And that's what we'll do?" asked Brave in shock.
Bouichirou nodded.
"You have already made up your mind, haven't you? It is only natural that it be the hero who saves the world."
"But how?"
"There is a way. We will enter the demon king's world. We will enter, but we will interfere without being incorporated into it. We can travel on the path of history that the Law of Identity has created. Of course, there will be a sacrifice."
"A sacrifice?"
"We will be interfering with the demon king's world, but our individual personalities will not."
Bouichirou seemed to have made up his mind about something and that statement sounded ominous to Brave.
"What do you mean by that? What sacrifice?"
"Just like the Law of Identity, the demon king does not handle the people as individual personalities. The people all have an internal side, but in the story, all else is nothing more than a collection of elements unneeded for a personality. That will remain the same even after he reorganizes the world."
"I see." Having caught on, Brave took a deep sigh. "We'll be treated as a combined personality playing the role of the hero."
"Yes. It is most likely for the Law of Identity's convenience, but that is how the characters work in this world."
"I don't want that to happen," said Brave.
But then Bouichirou vanished before his eyes.
Brave closed his eyes as if scrutinizing the memories, consciousness, and knowledge that came flowing in.
He took several calm breaths and finally looked up into the sky.
"I understand. We have to put on a show for the Law of Identity."
•akuto wrote his personal story to try to end the story, of course, he didn't succeed because that was the role of hiroshi. (Those who have read the verse will know that Daimaou's author is an incarnation of hiroshi and the world in which he lives is the story with the lowest density that can exist in the afterlife.)
"So you say the demon king has altered the afterlife?" asked Brave with hands on his hips.
"He alters it all the time, but this time he altogether erased it."
"Erased it? You mean he's resetting it to redo it?"
"Yes. It seems the afterlife was a world the demon king has free control over. He likely realized that thanks to the knowledge of those around him."
Bouichirou sounded fairly bewildered.
"Free control? I thought that place granted everyone's wishes and his will was simply the strongest."
Brave was suspicious because the dead had been there before the demon king.
"It is possible the memories of those people were only created once the demon king arrived. It would be impossible for them to be aware of it, however."
Brave accepted that explanation, but his expression did not change.
"That's based on the theory that no one would realize it if the world and all our memories were created five minutes ago. I'm familiar with that, but if it's true…what does that make us?"
"That is a natural question, but it is a difficult one to answer as we are on the inside." Bouichirou chose his words carefully. "However, if we assume the entire universe was created by the Law of Identity, it means we are fictional beings, as is the demon king."
"That's what you were talking about before, isn't it?"
"The afterlife exists on the inside and we can think of it as existing inside the demon king."
"Yeah," agreed Brave. "I get it. We all died and were resurrected. But it was the demon king that resurrected us."
"That is how I understand it. The world has been reconstructed as data. Just as the former computer gods attempted to do."
"Then why did he erase it and try to redo it? If he's on the level of a god, why didn't he accept the world he created?"
"Based on his words, I assume it be because that was a world of an eternal ending."
(..)
"I don't really get it."
Brave had been frowning this whole time.
"He realized there is no story in satisfying his own desires."
"I realized that before he did. Otherwise, I would have been living with my girlfriend in this world."
"We cannot do that. That is simply the type of existence we are."
Hearing that, Brave finally changed his expression.
"Existence? You explained that earlier, didn't you?"
"If the people of the afterlife are fictional characters, we alone exist. The two of us and the demon king."
"The two of us and the demon king?"
Brave was taken aback.
"We may have been chosen by the Law of Identity. We were chosen as side characters, but we were still given important parts to play."
Bouichirou's expression was oddly calm.
"I do feel like destiny is playing a hand in things. And we weren't wrapped up in what just happened."
"The demon king is redoing the story itself and he will likely study the result by using the people…no, the characters of the afterlife."
That was Bouichirou's conclusion and Brave accepted it.
"But there's no way he can do that."
"Yes. As he did not succeed the first time, he cannot succeed the second time unless someone else's power is at work."
"And that's what we'll do?" asked Brave in shock.
Bouichirou nodded.
"You have already made up your mind, haven't you? It is only natural that it be the hero who saves the world."
"But how?"
"There is a way. We will enter the demon king's world. We will enter, but we will interfere without being incorporated into it. We can travel on the path of history that the Law of Identity has created. Of course, there will be a sacrifice."
"A sacrifice?"
"We will be interfering with the demon king's world, but our individual personalities will not."
Bouichirou seemed to have made up his mind about something and that statement sounded ominous to Brave.
"What do you mean by that? What sacrifice?"
"Just like the Law of Identity, the demon king does not handle the people as individual personalities. The people all have an internal side, but in the story, all else is nothing more than a collection of elements unneeded for a personality. That will remain the same even after he reorganizes the world."
"I see." Having caught on, Brave took a deep sigh. "We'll be treated as a combined personality playing the role of the hero."
"Yes. It is most likely for the Law of Identity's convenience, but that is how the characters work in this world."
"I don't want that to happen," said Brave.
But then Bouichirou vanished before his eyes.
Brave closed his eyes as if scrutinizing the memories, consciousness, and knowledge that came flowing in.
He took several calm breaths and finally looked up into the sky.
"I understand. We have to put on a show for the Law of Identity."
John985
He/Him- 3,491
- 561
- 175
- 10
The new system uses cardinal numbers so understand it yourself.
darklk's explanation.
It's about the potential of the true informational bodies of computer gods that "surpassed dimensions." The volumes of data used by the gods correspond to infinities in infinite degrees. To the context of the fact that thoughts can create universes. That is, them can create simulations of structures of this magnitude.
Technically, it's something like 1-A, although I do not think that the computer gods should such a tier due to quite a few limitations of functionality. Nevertheless, there is the so-called Great Network in which they are located and which is a realm too huge even for them. So within the framework of the world of one story, 1-A structures are possible.
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2443472?useskin=oasis
•Great network.
"No, she is a human. What matters is that one can obtain the 'void body' needed to control the gods by binding the Contract of the One with her." "Wh-what the hell are you talking about!?" "Let me put it more simply. If someone obtains her, he can bring the gods back under human control. The gods actually want to be controlled. Being an intelligence floating in a vast network is too much to handle, so they desire a body. A single body."
•the evolution of characters through the stages of the universes.
"What exactly do you mean?"
"The gods wish to die so they can be born as life forms in a different universe."
Bouichirou finally arrived at the core of the issue.
Hiroshi's intuition told him what the man was getting at.
"Then the demon king is…?"
"Most likely, he is a device of destruction the gods create by skillfully manipulating people. An existence known as the Law of Identity is also created at the same time. When the demon king binds the Contract of the One with the Law of Identity, she will act as a vessel for them to be reborn in a different universe."
"And what happens once that happens?"
Hiroshi gulped.
"Every human will die. No, they will not die, but it will all be over. The gods only view humans as data. That is why the gods view the physical body for themselves to be the only one necessary. Although, that also means they will begin as single-celled life forms in the next universe.
darklk's explanation.
It's about the potential of the true informational bodies of computer gods that "surpassed dimensions." The volumes of data used by the gods correspond to infinities in infinite degrees. To the context of the fact that thoughts can create universes. That is, them can create simulations of structures of this magnitude.
Technically, it's something like 1-A, although I do not think that the computer gods should such a tier due to quite a few limitations of functionality. Nevertheless, there is the so-called Great Network in which they are located and which is a realm too huge even for them. So within the framework of the world of one story, 1-A structures are possible.
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2443472?useskin=oasis
•Great network.
"No, she is a human. What matters is that one can obtain the 'void body' needed to control the gods by binding the Contract of the One with her." "Wh-what the hell are you talking about!?" "Let me put it more simply. If someone obtains her, he can bring the gods back under human control. The gods actually want to be controlled. Being an intelligence floating in a vast network is too much to handle, so they desire a body. A single body."
•the evolution of characters through the stages of the universes.
"What exactly do you mean?"
"The gods wish to die so they can be born as life forms in a different universe."
Bouichirou finally arrived at the core of the issue.
Hiroshi's intuition told him what the man was getting at.
"Then the demon king is…?"
"Most likely, he is a device of destruction the gods create by skillfully manipulating people. An existence known as the Law of Identity is also created at the same time. When the demon king binds the Contract of the One with the Law of Identity, she will act as a vessel for them to be reborn in a different universe."
"And what happens once that happens?"
Hiroshi gulped.
"Every human will die. No, they will not die, but it will all be over. The gods only view humans as data. That is why the gods view the physical body for themselves to be the only one necessary. Although, that also means they will begin as single-celled life forms in the next universe.
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ÔÇóThe endless spectrum of those stages, archetypes created and governed their own universes. (the afterlife and the reality-fiction hierarchy in it is just a story in this spectrum, Each universe contains a hierarchy of high and low fiction layers like the afterlife.)
The universe was filled with lively voices.
"This is only a step away from the universe I know," said Akuto. "Is this all the other universes?"
The variously colored extra-universal gods gave a denial.
"These are the archetypes that created the different universes."
The extra-universal gods urged him to look behind him.
He looked toward the horizon without looking directly at it.
The entire horizon was filled with shadows. They were humanoid and countless in number.
They were not as simple as the ones he had seen so far. They wore many different kinds of clothes and they had clear sexes. Their shadows flickered only in the corner of his vision and each and every one undoubtedly contained hundreds of millions of beings. They all contained ghosts just like he did.
"Are they the same as me?" he asked.
The differently-colored extra-universal gods vanished without answering.
The other people representing universes that he had only caught a glimpse of finally faded into nothingness.
Only Akuto and Bouichirou remained at the table.
"They are likely the same as us."
For a while, the two of them were too shocked to speak, but Bouichirou finally agreed with Akuto.
"You and they are both universes. Perhaps we should refer to you as god universes. Before you released all of the world's possibilities, it may have been only you that was the same as them."
Bouichirou pointed at him and he let out a long breath and nodded.
"The birth of the universe resembled the birth of stories. If the universe really is multiple stories, then there must be countless beings like me outside of it."
"If so, there should be a spectrum," said Bouichirou confidently.
"A spectrum? What's that?" asked Akuto.
"It means they are divided into multiple levels. You could call it their story density. Think of them as having become stories to varying degrees."
"And we've done so to a much higher degree?"
"We know that the world is fictional. Doesn't that seem like a very high degree?'
Bouichirou's comment brought something to Akuto's mind.
The story of interference from outside the universe was centered on not perceiving the world as fictional. That was a story based on the assumption that one lived as only a single incarnation.
The universe was filled with lively voices.
"This is only a step away from the universe I know," said Akuto. "Is this all the other universes?"
The variously colored extra-universal gods gave a denial.
"These are the archetypes that created the different universes."
The extra-universal gods urged him to look behind him.
He looked toward the horizon without looking directly at it.
The entire horizon was filled with shadows. They were humanoid and countless in number.
They were not as simple as the ones he had seen so far. They wore many different kinds of clothes and they had clear sexes. Their shadows flickered only in the corner of his vision and each and every one undoubtedly contained hundreds of millions of beings. They all contained ghosts just like he did.
"Are they the same as me?" he asked.
The differently-colored extra-universal gods vanished without answering.
The other people representing universes that he had only caught a glimpse of finally faded into nothingness.
Only Akuto and Bouichirou remained at the table.
"They are likely the same as us."
For a while, the two of them were too shocked to speak, but Bouichirou finally agreed with Akuto.
"You and they are both universes. Perhaps we should refer to you as god universes. Before you released all of the world's possibilities, it may have been only you that was the same as them."
Bouichirou pointed at him and he let out a long breath and nodded.
"The birth of the universe resembled the birth of stories. If the universe really is multiple stories, then there must be countless beings like me outside of it."
"If so, there should be a spectrum," said Bouichirou confidently.
"A spectrum? What's that?" asked Akuto.
"It means they are divided into multiple levels. You could call it their story density. Think of them as having become stories to varying degrees."
"And we've done so to a much higher degree?"
"We know that the world is fictional. Doesn't that seem like a very high degree?'
Bouichirou's comment brought something to Akuto's mind.
The story of interference from outside the universe was centered on not perceiving the world as fictional. That was a story based on the assumption that one lived as only a single incarnation.
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ÔÇóhigher stories look at stories of lower levels that are fictional. (akuto has considered the archetypes to be fiction because he is a higher being than them).
"I feel like I only came to understand myself once I saw the outside," agreed Akuto.
"But when you get down to it, even the extra-universal gods are fictional. They merely cannot distinguish between god, mankind, and ghost. Only once you inform the higher being and create an enclosure within a single universe can you make a clear distinction between the three. That allows you to understand who it is you are inside."
Akuto thought about Bouichirou's analysis.
"Okay. That means I need to think about how to respond to that higher being," said Akuto. "I don't just want to save the beings inside me. I want to save all the beings inside the Law of Identity's universe. I want to free them from the stories. That is my wish."
ÔÇóAkuto opens up all possibilities, his personal story contains the spectrum of universes and the gods, all as a part of his story.
Opening up all possibilities may have been a mistake.
The space itself was finite and the characters were finite, but the combinations were infinite. Opening up the possibilities was not just a concept. It actually released the walls of the world that supposedly existed within Akuto.
This was similar to further universes being born within him.
The props used naturally extended beyond him.
In other words, even the extra-universal gods became possibilities in the story.
As a result, all stories fell into chaos.
What is it called when stories fall into chaos?
The answer was included in a certain story from the past: the Tower of Babel.
Until then, it could be said that the story was shared by all. They had all been playing a part in that story and thus the world had not been allowed to interfere with the stories other than Akuto's.
So what if the people ceased to share the story?
That led to chaos.
The extra-universal gods all contained their own unique stories and were thus the protagonists of those stories. Those multiple protagonists had tried to advance their stories in the same space.
That may have caused a great disturbance, but it was not conflict. After all, the "weak" stories existed there in addition to the "strong" stories that attempted take the lead. The weak yet large ones ran everyday life. The strong yet small ones ran the oddities of life.
The concepts that explained the world's structure and made people aware of their identity were large, but they had mostly blended into everyday life to the point of not being noticed. The stories of individuals' lives were carved deeply into people's hearts, but they naturally went no further than that individual.
Individuals.
It was only now that mankind truly became "individuals". Even if they could speak to each other, no kind of relationship could be formed if they did not share the same stories. The relationships of friends, enemies, and even strangers could not be established.
When the possibilities were infinite, stories instantly became impossible.
"I feel like I only came to understand myself once I saw the outside," agreed Akuto.
"But when you get down to it, even the extra-universal gods are fictional. They merely cannot distinguish between god, mankind, and ghost. Only once you inform the higher being and create an enclosure within a single universe can you make a clear distinction between the three. That allows you to understand who it is you are inside."
Akuto thought about Bouichirou's analysis.
"Okay. That means I need to think about how to respond to that higher being," said Akuto. "I don't just want to save the beings inside me. I want to save all the beings inside the Law of Identity's universe. I want to free them from the stories. That is my wish."
ÔÇóAkuto opens up all possibilities, his personal story contains the spectrum of universes and the gods, all as a part of his story.
Opening up all possibilities may have been a mistake.
The space itself was finite and the characters were finite, but the combinations were infinite. Opening up the possibilities was not just a concept. It actually released the walls of the world that supposedly existed within Akuto.
This was similar to further universes being born within him.
The props used naturally extended beyond him.
In other words, even the extra-universal gods became possibilities in the story.
As a result, all stories fell into chaos.
What is it called when stories fall into chaos?
The answer was included in a certain story from the past: the Tower of Babel.
Until then, it could be said that the story was shared by all. They had all been playing a part in that story and thus the world had not been allowed to interfere with the stories other than Akuto's.
So what if the people ceased to share the story?
That led to chaos.
The extra-universal gods all contained their own unique stories and were thus the protagonists of those stories. Those multiple protagonists had tried to advance their stories in the same space.
That may have caused a great disturbance, but it was not conflict. After all, the "weak" stories existed there in addition to the "strong" stories that attempted take the lead. The weak yet large ones ran everyday life. The strong yet small ones ran the oddities of life.
The concepts that explained the world's structure and made people aware of their identity were large, but they had mostly blended into everyday life to the point of not being noticed. The stories of individuals' lives were carved deeply into people's hearts, but they naturally went no further than that individual.
Individuals.
It was only now that mankind truly became "individuals". Even if they could speak to each other, no kind of relationship could be formed if they did not share the same stories. The relationships of friends, enemies, and even strangers could not be established.
When the possibilities were infinite, stories instantly became impossible.
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Have you seen the quote of "Stories within Stories within Stories" in the Law of Identity's profile?GLHF22 said:
That quote is something mentioned in Vol 11. Akuto and friends only get to the Afterlife much later, in Vol 12. When that quote is said Akuto had no idea of how the Afterlife truly worked, and he naively believed it would be a place where one could escape from the bounds of stories.
So the World beneath the Afterlife is High 1-B.
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there are no parallel universes in the human world, the human universe has many different dimensions, infinite 4-dimensional space, the original worlds in millions of books, the universe of the computer gods and their domain.John985 said:
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I'm pretty sure they speculate about alternate universes and realities at one point in the earlier novels.
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The story in the story in the story ..... in vol 12 that is the true structure of the universe. The lowest universe is the universe of mankind, followed by the spectrum of the universes, then akuto's babel tower, then Tloi's universe, and finally the anti-universe.
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I agree with Matt here. Also, Siperri, stop writing 3 different posts for something you can say in one.
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^GLHF22 said:
What is the evidence of each stories/storyteller is 1-A? What is the evidence backing up your argument? Whats makes stories within stories within stories is 1-A? And what's makes after life is High 1B? Cmon I just want you to show me the scan,the evidence. I don't opposed the change i just want you to solidify the change, so there is Will be no further question in the future.
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@GLHF22
The structure that loliosite wrote does not exceed the dark tower, let alone 1-A.
The structure that loliosite wrote does not exceed the dark tower, let alone 1-A.
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First of all, I'm extremely sure what I wrote exceeds TDT, otherwise people like DT would have said what I said wasn't 1-A to begin with.Siperri123 said:
But my OP is basically moot now, and we agreed on just following what Matt said, since he's clearly the one who've analyzed the novel the furthest and knows how to back up his claims the best.
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@GLHF22
The 1-A Storytellers are the Gods / Universes / Archetypes that exist in the empty expanse above the Afterlife. Akuto meets with them and interacts with them after he realizes that the Afterlife, which he previously thought represented freedom from all stories, is itself a story nonetheless, and then tries to take over the Afterlife and remake it as its storyteller.
The 1-A Storytellers are the Gods / Universes / Archetypes that exist in the empty expanse above the Afterlife. Akuto meets with them and interacts with them after he realizes that the Afterlife, which he previously thought represented freedom from all stories, is itself a story nonetheless, and then tries to take over the Afterlife and remake it as its storyteller.
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The worlds beneath the Afterlife are an infinite hierarchy of stories within stories within stories within stories. Making it quite blatantly High 1-B. And the Afterlife exists fully outside of it, unbound by either space and time, making it quite obvious a 1-A realm.
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No. Because the "Storytellers" that we are referring are the level Akuto himself reached after transcending the Afterlife.
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If we go by the blog OP post above, the living world is contain 4D spaces and afterlife seeing its as fiction thats just higher dimensional, probably doesnt reach High1B, but since there is infinite hierarchies of stories then its actually High1B since there is stories below the stories. Also Akuto didnt transcends the stories he just at the top of it.
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I'm not going by any blog I'm going off reading Vol 11 and 12
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As I have said many times, my OP is moot now, can you please ignore it?GLHF22 said:
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So, what's the conclusion
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ThisI'm Blue daba dee daba die said:
Everyone but Siperri agrees with this, so we can use it.Ionliosite said:
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