I feel Gokus more powerful than the Wiki currently calcs him as being .

[LeonLMMC]

Super Saiyan God was enough to get Goku to universe level he absorbed its power into his base form and then Super Saiyan Blue is stated to be many times stronger than SSG stated to be the Super Saiyan equivalent of it Golden Frieza in Res F was much stronger than Blue Goku he only started losing because The Golden forms stamina drain was weakening him tremendously. By the time of Pre Tournament of power True Golden Friezas more powerful than he was in Res F and Goku was a whole lot stronger in his base form due to Zenkai boosts In the Goku Black arc and training . True Golden Frieza and Base form Goku both punch each other and both are knocked out. At this point Base Goku is countless times more powerful than Res F Blue Goku who was clearly universe + level leads me to think that T.O.P Goku is low Multiversal in base form High multiversal in Blue and Blue Kaioken. Id also argue that Ultra Instinct Sign Goku is 4th dimensional based on him fighting evenly with Jiren who broke out of a prison made of time itself and both powered up Jiren and UI sign Goku just by being there just by existing caused the whole world of void which is stated to be a realm of infinite nothingness to shake as if there was solid mass anywhere other than the Arena.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Okay.

 

[Genericstickman]

Why is this in the calc group discussion board?

 

[Theuser789]

Jiren is stronger

 

[LeonLMMC]

oh sorry if it shouldn't be here ill move it to general discussion

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

This poor unfortunate soul.

 

[LeonLMMC]

feel free to delete it from here if possible I don't know how

 

[Wokistan]

You can't calc or tier jump via multipliers after 3-A

 

[Planck69]

1. He only starts being Low 2-C in SSB after UIO-2 in the ToP since he makes Jiren use more energy than he did when he was stated to be superior to Infinite Zamasu, which is where Low 2-C begins in DBS. RF Goku is still very much just superior to a 3-A feat.

2. We don't use multipliers to jump tiers from Low 2-C onwards. He'd just be a higher level of Low 2-C.

3. Being fourth-dimensional is at best Low 2-C and affecting an infinite void is just High 3-A.

 

[LeonLMMC]

oh ok I see

 

[Planck69]

Welcome to the wiki btw.

 

[LeonLMMC]

thanks

 

[Thelastmlg]

Alright, let me try to explain but i'm not that great at explanations.

1. Multipliers or anything don't increase your tier after universal, because high universal is literally infínite, low 2-C is technically higher dimensional, and the rest is multiversal.

The reason why you don't go from universal+ to any form of multiversal is because is impossible to actually give a number of the gaps.

One of the reasons why cosmic level feats are so far between each other after multi-solar system level is because of the sheer distance that your attacks must travel to destroy multiple objects.

However, we can calculate them because we know the distance between planets and stars and galaxies.

But here is the problem, we don't have a idea of the distance between universes and timelines, we don't even know if a multiverse exists.

To make matters worst, after low 2-C you are not just destroying matter, you are destroying space and time itself, making calculations even worse.

Therefore, being 10x universal+ doesn't equal low multiversal.

However, because of a certain feat between beerus and champa, anyone 2x stronger than one of those (who are universal+) is low multiversal, but this is just because of how they were sharing a low multiversal feat, is a exemption you could say.

2. High multiversal isn't really a thing anymore, unless you mean being very high on the multiversal level, like busting a trillion universes or countless without being infinite.

3. The dimensions used here are spatial, transcending time means being 4D in a temporal sense, which is basically being 3D while somehow connected with time or having infinite speed or something like that, is a case by case.

But jiren doesn't transcend time, he is only resistant to time manipulation.

4. I don't recall but i think the world of void was considered eternal instead of infinite? I don't know if it was accepted or not.

But that's only a high universal feat, since the world of void is a single dimension (in a sense)

 

[elhermanopadre]

Alright, let me try to explain but i'm not that great at explanations.

1. Multipliers or anything don't increase your tier after universal, because high universal is literally infínite, low 2-C is technically higher dimensional, and the rest is multiversal.

The reason why you don't go from universal+ to any form of multiversal is because is impossible to actually give a number of the gaps.

One of the reasons why cosmic level feats are so far between each other after multi-solar system level is because of the sheer distance that your attacks must travel to destroy multiple objects.

However, we can calculate them because we know the distance between planets and stars and galaxies.

But here is the problem, we don't have a idea of the distance between universes and timelines, we don't even know if a multiverse exists.

To make matters worst, after low 2-C you are not just destroying matter, you are destroying space and time itself, making calculations even worse.

Therefore, being 10x universal+ doesn't equal low multiversal.

However, because of a certain feat between beerus and champa, anyone 2x stronger than one of those (who are universal+) is low multiversal, but this is just because of how they were sharing a low multiversal feat, is a exemption you could say.

2. High multiversal isn't really a thing anymore, unless you mean being very high on the multiversal level, like busting a trillion universes or countless without being infinite.

3. The dimensions used here are spatial, transcending time means being 4D in a temporal sense, which is basically being 3D while somehow connected with time or having infinite speed or something like that, is a case by case.

But jiren doesn't transcend time, he is only resistant to time manipulation.

4. I don't recall but i think the world of void was considered eternal instead of infinite? I don't know if it was accepted or not.

But that's only a high universal feat, since the world of void is a single dimension (in a sense)

Why jiren doesn't transcend time , he's stated to be that atleast twice.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Why jiren doesn't transcend time , he's stated to be that atleast twice.

Because it was just flowery talk about him breaking through hit's time abilities, if he transcended time then the whole "time is running out" issue wouldn't happen.

Also IIRC they said his strenght does that, implying a resistance instead of a state of being.

 

[elhermanopadre]

That isn't flowery talk, its multiple statements, of him being far beyond comprehensions, him being above time and time not meaning anything to is strength . "if he transcended time then the whole "time is running out" issue wouldn't happen." How is that relevant?


Do you transcend time with the power of speed answer that question, when you transcend something it's a stated of complete superiority which would include stats? All that stated says, is that his raw power can make him transcend time, and if you transcend time wouldn't you have resistance to time abilities?

 

[Thelastmlg]

You can have a million statements, if they are related to him resisting time hax, it is just flowery talk, period.

uuuuh, it is totally relevant, if him transcending time was in a meaningful level, time running out wouldn't be a issue, if the verse still sees time as a issue for jiren, he has no transcendence and is just resistant.

No i don't, is called flowery talk, they said that his strenght transcends time, is their fault not mine, and yes, you can transcend time with speed, is calld immensurable speed.

Why would need to transcend time if you just resist time hax?

 

[elhermanopadre]

I see for the flowery argument since it's related to him resisting time hax, those statements will be ignored just because of that.

Well, but what amps is speed? ki of course which is used for his strength as well. In db that is how it works ki boost all your stats. And to be able to make movements he would need speed ( traveling in a distance in a certain amount of time), how is raw power going to help you do movement in no time, he could destroy it sure, but that isn't what jiren did, he moved there, he didn't power up to destroy it, he simply moved.

Who said time was an issue? he simply has to overpower the opponents in order to win, where is time being an issue? it was never stated the issue was him beating the opponent quickly so that he can win in time, that has to do with time manipulation abilities.

They never said he needed to transcend time to resist it, obviously what I'm saying, him transcending time would explain why he could resist time hax obviously.

 

[elhermanopadre]

"1. Multipliers or anything don't increase your tier after universal, because high universal is literally inf¡nite, low 2-C is technically higher dimensional, and the rest is multiversal"

But what if you are already low-multiversal, and you become centillion times stronger, or get multiple infinite boosts on top of each other would you jump to multiversal or not.

 

[Thelastmlg]

1. The whole "low multiversal then multiplier" thing is being debated right now, but talking about universal+.

2. We don't ignore them, he does technically transcend time but in a completely different way than the one OP refered to, compared to other time transcender.

If his transcendence just means "resisting time hax", why even consider him to transcend it, transceding time is vagur as it is so is essier to just say "he resist time hax".

We go by feats and his feats are just resisting time hax.

3. Dbz does NOT increase strenght and speed at a 1:1 ratio, and it proves nothing because again, he just resists time hax with his "transcendence".

4. They literally said several times that time was running out, even belmod told jiren to him before time ran out.

His transcendence over time is just resistance, that's it, it is just vague anyway and doesn't increase his speed or power, and even if his transcendence mean't immensurable speed or infinite, he has literally no feats proving that.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

"Transcends time but still has a defined speed, which is entirely bound by time"

Sure, okay man.

 

[elhermanopadre]

1. The whole "low multiversal then multiplier" thing is being debated right now, but talking about universal+.

2. We don't ignore them, he does technically transcend time but in a completely different way than the one OP refered to, compared to other time transcender.

If his transcendence just means "resisting time hax", why even consider him to transcend it, transceding time is vagur as it is so is essier to just say "he resist time hax".

We go by feats and his feats are just resisting time hax.

3. Dbz does NOT increase strenght and speed at a 1:1 ratio, and it proves nothing because again, he just resists time hax with his "transcendence".

4. They literally said several times that time was running out, even belmod told jiren to him before time ran out.

His transcendence over time is just resistance, that's it, it is just vague anyway and doesn't increase his speed or power, and even if his transcendence mean't immensurable speed or infinite, he has literally no feats proving that.

1) ok

2) ok, but he resisted it because he transcends that's the point, no you go by statement, feats, and scaling obviously unless you wanna say

3) If their power is up so does their stats like speed, Vegeta stated that, yes he resist time hax because of his transcendence of time, that isn't hard to understand. It doesn't matter if a 1:1 ratio, it was said that when their power goes up their stats like speed also goes up.

4) How is time running out relevant? jiren is supposed to beat said opponents and said opponents are very powerful especially for Goku in mui and ui. If his opponents are fodder this problem of him winning in time wouldn't be a problem.

Yes, transcending time is the reason he could resist time stops, if he transcends time he should be able to resist time-manipulating abilities obviously, or are you trying to say that people who transcend time cannot resist time abilities ?. It isn't vague, it was stated at least twice by vados and the kaoishin , and even says that he's far beyond comprehension. But it was said that it's because of his power/strength that he can transcend time, so of course, it must be because of stat amplification that he can transcend it. Transcendence is a state of superiority which would include physical stats obviously. Also, this would translate to his speed and strength since it's because of his strength that he can move in stop time and transcend time. If it was only strength than, then he should be able to move but just break out of it which isn't the case.

So if someone is complex multiversal without any speed feat does that mean he wouldn't be rated immeasurable just because he doesn't have a speed feat of that level? , or higher dimensional being for example outerversal , since they do not have an irrelevant speed feat they cannot be rated that using that logic , that would also remove scaling has well by that logic. Also, statements are evidences as well you do not always need feats just to get a rating. Once more since he can move in time stop, he must have infinite speed and strength bare minimum and immeasurable if he transcends time.

 

[Daddybrawl]

Oh my lord did you really just bump a 6 Month Old thread made when the OP was new to the wiki, just to claim Jiren and therefore Goku transcend time despite them constantly running out of time to do things?

 

[elhermanopadre]

Oh my lord did you really just bump a 6 Month Old thread made when the OP was new to the wiki, just to claim Jiren and therefore Goku transcend time despite them constantly running out of time to do things?

I didn't, it started with him talking about jiren time transcending statement and ask why it's just time stop. I will quote my first reply

"Why jiren doesn't transcend time, he's stated to be that at least twice."

Also how running out of time relevant? it's about beating your opponent AKA overpower them, where is as anything to do with this? IDK what are you talking about.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The fact you have no clue what he is talking about perfectly exemplifies why it really doesn't seem like you understand why that statement is not taken seriously.

 

[elhermanopadre]

The fact you have no clue what he is talking about perfectly exemplifies why it really doesn't seem like you understand why that statement is not taken seriously.

I didn't say that, I know why he does not take it seriously for is reasons by asking him, but the reason he gaved isn't enough and doesn't disprove those statements being made for jiren , he says that it's only time resistance, but someone who transcends time would also be able to resist time manipulating abilities. From what I know that statement is evidences and can be used to scale him.

If that topic is ban here for whatever reason then I guess, I will have to stop asking about it.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Is not banned, is just incredibly simple logic.

"Also how running out of time relevant?" How is it not? This is exactly what I am talking about, you really don't seem to have a clue what the statement implies if you don't know why this is important.

An immeasurable character would just move forwards or backwards in time whenever they wanted. 1 minute or 1 hour is the very same to Jiren. People without his speed wouldn't even perceive him doing anything. None of this happens, but we are supposed to take the statement seriously.

I have no clue how that makes any sense.

 

[Rikimarox2]

I am all in for 1-A Goku btw.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

oh lord :v

 

[elhermanopadre]

Is not banned, is just incredibly simple logic.

"Also how running out of time relevant?" How is it not? This is exactly what I am talking about, you really don't seem to have a clue what the statement implies if you don't know why this is important.

An immeasurable character would just move forwards or backwards in time whenever they wanted. 1 minute or 1 hour is the very same to Jiren. People without his speed wouldn't even perceive him doing anything. None of this happens, but we are supposed to take the statement seriously.

I have no clue how that makes any sense.

What you implied doesn't make much sense. Again, it's about power can he beat is opponent before it's over. And it's in jiren character anyways , when he fought vegita or any of the opponents in the ToP he could have knocked them out if he really wanted to and martial artist like goku and jiren when to bring peoples full power and fight/beat them.

Nop immeasurable speed character CAN MOVE FORWARDS AND BACKWARDS IN TIME IF THEY WANTED TO but they do have too use for no reasons (just because they can doesn't mean they have to do it ) and must be aware that they have said ability. Is there any reason for jiren to do that? when talking to android 17 , he says that strength is absolute and forgives anything even the past .That wouldn't be how it works in db , just going back in time and atk someone isn't going to kill them in the present that is not how it works in db all it would is create another timeline. There is no reason for him to do say even if he could. 0:58
3:24
Even if some of them could see them that would only mean that they have the ability to do so. It's mostly inconsistencies and fiction doesn't always has to follow real life.

 

[elhermanopadre]

I am all in for 1-A Goku btw.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

So "let's take this statement at face value despite it having no proof. Forget about the fact that Jiren never shows being able to do this, never shows that he perceives time differently like someone that is immeasurable".

Yeah, **** it, this is genuinely dumb. Am out of here.

 

[elhermanopadre]

So "let's take this statement at face value despite it having no proof. Forget about the fact that Jiren never shows being able to do this, never shows that he perceives time differently like someone that is immeasurable".

Yeah, **** it, this is genuinely dumb. Am out of here.

Once more why would he do it? it doesn't make any logical sense, what! you are trying to so claim that "HE DIDN'T DO IT BECAUSE HE CANT" , there must be a reason to do such a thing, and if it's going to be somehow effective here which it isn't. By that logic alone, no one that are rated complex multiversal , or outerversal should be rated as having immeasurable and irrelevant speed respectively since they didn't show it. They would only be rated massive ftl or something like that.
And again statements are a form of evidence. They say that he does transcend it coming from an angel who should have time-manipulating abilities scaling from whis and the kaioshin , and someone who transcends time should be able to resist time-manipulating abilities as well. And in jiren's case it' was is power/strength that transcend time , he himself isn't physically a higher dimensional being but , does have higher dimensional powers, idk why him perceiving time is relevant.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Not sure what's the problem here, transcending time is clearly a high end 1-A feat, and since Goku>Jiren, that means Goku is 1-A.


Zeno is also so vastly above them, so, H1A Zeno. Pretty cut and clear honestly.

Also, while you are at it, put krillin at Tier 0. He's pretty cool

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Have you not even processed the possibility, the mere and minuscule chance, that "he can't do it" is the reason, because not being able to do stuff is a valid reason for not being able to do them?

And by Occam's Razor, instead of using many positive assumptions for why he can't move at that speed or perceive at that speed, which would be something passive and not active, why wouldn't I just assume the negative, the normal thing in a debate, that he just isn't immeasurable?

By that logic alone, no one that are rated complex multiversal , or outerversal should be rated as having immeasurable and irrelevant speed respectively since they didn't show it.

So the issue is that you just don't understand the tier system at all? You could have just said so.

 

[elhermanopadre]

Not sure what's the problem here, transcending time is clearly a high end 1-A feat, and since Goku>Jiren, that means Goku is 1-A.


Zeno is so vastly above them, so, H1A Zeno. Pretty cut and clear honestly.

Also, while you are at it, put krillin at Tier 0, because he's cool

I would say with high ends , that is what anyone who transcends space-time can be rated.

 

[elhermanopadre]

Have you not even processed the possibility, the mere and minuscule chance, that "he can't do it" is the reason, because not being able to do stuff is a valid reason for not being able to do them?

And by Occam's Razor, instead of using many positive assumptions for why he can't move at that speed or perceive at that speed, which would be something passive and not active, why wouldn't I just assume the negative, the normal thing in a debate, that he just isn't immeasurable?

So the issue is that you just don't understand the tier system at all? You could have just said so.

It isn't, that's not how it works, there must reason to do such a thing, that's like saying,"I DIDN'T THREW AWAY MY COMPUTER BECAUSE I CANT" or Goku didn't kill chichi or Bulma,"THAT MUST MEANT HE CANT SINCE HE DIDN'T DO IT" or when he fought the human thieves, he didn't kill by your logic, "SINCE HE DIDN'T DO IT IT MUST MEAN HE CAN'T" , or when jiren fought goku , he could have easily throw away weaken Goku or eliminate pretty much any opponent in the ToP but choose not to do it. It isn't an assumption when there is no context of using said ability.

It isn't an assumption, again you must provide evidence of why he should do, I explain to you how time travel works in db , going back in time to atk someone isn't going to kill them in the present time (it's going to create a new timeline) and I didn't say he can't perceive that movement. Nop, the statement for him transcend time alone would give him immeasurable speeds, and moving in time stop infinite speed. It isn't that I don't, , it's you misunderstand character or reasoning to do something without any context or meaning to it.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

That's a really dumb comparison.

We see very clearly what they refer to with "transcending time", which is simply resisting Hit's shenanigans. Wanna say they mean something else? Pull out proof. And unlike your terrible example, we can't see that Jiren has that speed, while I can very clearly see I have arms so I could throw a computer, and we can clearly see Jiren is more powerful than everyone else in the tournament so he could destroy them all easily, but we never see him moving that fast, we never see him perceiving time like someone that's immeasurable. My arms factually exist, and work, I don't need to prove something objectively truth. Jiren doesn't do a single thing that is immeasurable, therefore is not objectively true. I have to prove nothing because that's not how debating works, YOU have to prove the positive claim that yes, he can.

I don't think you have an actual clue how basic debating works.

 

[elhermanopadre]

That's a really dumb comparison. If I have arms, and my arms can move, either they are too weak to throw a computer or they don't have a big range of motion. Do you know why the analogy is dumb though? You know that I have arms. If you see me, you don't need to assume I don't, I factually, objectively have arms. I don't have to argue that Jiren has what he has never shown, that's stupid. In a debate, you assume the negative. Positive claims are the ones that need proof. You are making positive claims without proof

We see very clearly what they refer to with "transcending time", which is simply resisting Hit's shenanigans. Wanna say they mean something else? Pull out proof. And unlike your terrible example, we can't see that Jiren has that speed, while I can very clearly see I have arms so I could throw a computer, and we can clearly see Jiren is more powerful than everyone else in the tournament so he could destroy them all easily, but we never see him moving that fast, we never see him perceiving time like someone that's immeasurable.

Just assuming he is and telling me to prove otherwise is not how we do things. I don't think you have an actual clue how basic debating works.

Nop, said person doesn't have that weakness and display the ability to move my arm normally like a normal human, there is no reason for that person to throw away its computer even if they have the ability to do so. And throwing away a computer can also be done by kicking it isn't limited to arms and such. Once more he doesn't have to necessarily show that he can, statement can be used to scale him on that level. . Again, you didn't disprove me, we clearly know that jiren can beat anyone in that tournament at that time, yet he didn't, by your logic, he didn't do it BECAUSE HE CAN'T. He has motifs, there must be a personal reason for him to do it, just because he didn't do it doesn't mean he can't.

And he doesn't have to perceive time differently, in the speed tier for immeasurable speed, there is no statement or requirement about PERCEIVING TIME DIFFERENTLY for people who are move beyond linear time.

I have proof while you don't, you say that he cant without saying why he should. Transcending time can only mean one thing, TRANSCENDING TIME. Once more I'm not assuming anything, there are statements backing up what I just said, that is not an assumption, I'm basing my claim on something that was directly stated in the show itself.
Statements alone coming from vados and kaoishin is evidence, she's a reliable source. You are the one who doesn't, you assume a character must do something when it doesn't have and isn't effective nor does he need to. Trying to time travel in the past and atk someone there to kill them in the present isn't how it works in db , it's only going to create other timelines. That was clearly shown in dbk/z with the androids or super with present zamasu.

By your logic, since characters who are rated complex multiversal and plus didn't show to move at immeasurable speeds or irrelevant speed, are going to be rated down to FTL only.

 

[elhermanopadre]

My arms factually exist, and work, I don't need to prove something objectively truth. Jiren doesn't do a single thing that is immeasurable, therefore is not objectively true. I have to prove nothing because that's not how debating works, YOU have to prove the positive claim that yes, he can.

Irrelevant example, what you were implying is because someone didn't do something it must they cant. Your arm example is completely irrelevant said person has an arm and legs that function correctly like normal people, but said person didn't throw away the computer, by your logic, said person cannot do it BECAUSE HE DIDN'T DO IT when there is no logical reasoning to do so. I have, prove, statements are evidences, it can be used to scale a character, but you ignore them.