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Hyperdimension Neptunia Revisions Part 2 - Abilities, Tier Adjustments and Misc.

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KaiokenBlueGT

KaiokenBlueGT

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Hyperdimension Neptunia Revisions Part 2 - Abilities, Tier Adjustments and Misc.​

(Otherwise known as "VSdimension Neptunia 2: Twilight of the Desperate CRT")

ecdxZLa.png

Introduction​

Hey everyone! As two certain characters from Noire's nation would say: "Kept you waiting, huh?"

After 3 days years, Part 2 to the Hyperdimension Neptunia revisions are finally here! This thread will be much longer than the first part, since it contains a variety of things, so please do be sure to take your time when reading through it!

As a side-note, not everything that has been discussed is part of this revision. There will still be a few things left to add in the future, but what we're about to share with you in this CRT is mainly the major additions that are crucial for the current profiles. Things like the scaling chains for Re;Birth 2 & Re;Birth 3, weapons, and other various subjects will be brought up in the next part so pray that it doesn't take us another three years... again.

This revision will mostly involve Megadimension Neptunia VII because techmaster really couldn't help himself, so a majority of the remaining RB;2 and RB;3 stuff will be discussed in the next part. Not to worry though, as said before - they aren't as important compared to what VII brings to the table.

Due to the massive nature of this CRT, each section has been appropriately marked with a spoiler to make browsing this thread a bit more accessible.

Speed Tab.png

MHS-MHS+ Speed Upgrade (VII Speed Summary)​

In Megadimension Neptunia VII, there is an attack performed by Dark Green called “2nd Heaven: Disastrous Lightning". This attack comprises of Dark Green lifting its spear up and waving it around in the air, generating a large storm with accompanying lightning bolts to damage the cast in the form of an AOE attack. Currently, we are using this as a speed feat to upgrade the speed of the verse from Hypersonic to Massively Hypersonic or Massively Hypersonic+, and at the very least, for combat/attack and reaction speed. Now, why exactly are we doing this? Well, the answer lies within this page. On the page is a list of "favourable properties" to support the claim that most lightning used by individuals in fiction is real lightning. The feat we see in the video marks two of these bases off the list: the character being able to manipulate real electricity and that the lightning seen has a similar speed to that of lightning in real life. Another thing to note is that it can be considered cloud-to-ground lightning based on the animation, although, the lack of clouds in sight makes this a tad iffy (no pun intended). The other "favourable properties" are more or less just minor scientific properties that wouldn't necessarily be looked at in depth in a game like this. Of course, something like this is extremely sketchy, and we understand that, considering there isn't any calculations related to this, and the gameplay in question has the characters just standing in place, not dodging or moving whatsoever (albeit, this sort of stuff is common in RPGs, but I digress). But, please, at least hear us out on this one.

Possible Counterarguments​

1. “That’s not a storm, it’s a whirlwind.”​

While the animation is indicative of a whirlwind, what accompanies it is not. Whirlwinds are not able to generate lightning without some sort of electricity manipulation in addition to the whirlwind being conjured. However, we do not see such a thing here: there is no electricity nor lightning spewing from Dark Green’s spear (or from anywhere else on its body, for that matter), nor from anyone else when the attack is performed, so it is a storm that created natural lightning.

2. “There’s lightning surrounding Dark Green, it's the one creating the lightning.”​

The lightning flying around Dark Green does not mean it is the one creating it. In fact, during the attack animation, we can see there are other bolts of lightning that strike in spots that are not surrounding Dark Green and are near the floating islands within the Sharing Field. For all we know, this is just lightning flying around it in a method of protection against the cast. So, again, this is just natural lightning created from the storm.

3. “Lightning appears around Dark Green before its spear is fully raised.”​

This is just in coordination with the storm. By slowing down the video to 0.25 or 0.5 speed, we can see that, in conjunction with the lightning, the storm is forming, indicated by the screen beginning to darken, which is exactly what happens during the attack.

4. “It’s not real lightning so it can’t be used.”​

If it’s not real lightning, then what is it? An illusion? And the storm is what is damaging the cast? Not only do the sound effects of the attack and the name of it contradict this, but it also uses the Lightning element, which would be very contrasting if it were not real lightning. There are multiple instances in this series where Lightning-element attacks use lightning, so this wouldn't be any different. It would have been the Wind element if not for the lightning, and at no point in this series do Wind-element attacks use lightning whatsoever.

5. “But creating lightning that has lightning sounds doesn't inherently mean lightning speed.”​

While in some media that might be the case, it isn’t in this one. What is seen on-screen is fast-paced bolts of electricity flying around and striking some distance away from Dark Green and shows behavior similar to real-world lightning. It’s there one moment in an incredibly short timeframe, and it’s gone the next. That alone is definitely worthy of being called “lightning speed”, which, again, is the reason for the speed rating in the first place.

6. "But what if the characters are just a lower speed and can dodge it?"​

Sure, that could very well have been the case, but the attack animation says otherwise. The amount of lightning bolts that strike during the attack animation itself makes the idea of them being a lower speed highly unlikely. A character that is, say, Hypersonic, isn't going to be able to dodge multiple lightning bolts striking at and/or near them in rapid succession, especially when there are, canonically, multiple characters in the same space at once instead of just one person doing all the work. That is far too slow to be able to do, hence why we are proposing MHS-MHS+ here. On top of that, by the time you finish the battle and enter the next cutscene, the characters are totally fine and show no signs of exhaustion whatsoever. The same applies to the cutscenes after the Dark White and Dark Black fights of the same arc. If Dark Green had this attack and used it, and these characters weren't fast enough to dodge it, they would have shown some sort of exhaustion, whether it's mentioning their injuries, or soft panting from being out of breath; something like this has been shown before with both the Dark Purple fights of the first arc, where the characters, in particular, Uzume, have been shown to have a shortness of breath or outright collapse after the fight is said and done. And even including some examples that don't include the Dark CPUs, such as Vert and Nepgear against the Demon King, or Purple Heart against B-Sha, we see that the characters are injured and expressing their exhaustion. So even more reasoning to assume that a lower speed isn't the case.

Addressing the “Miss” for the characters​

This has been ruled out as a game mechanic. Since this is a mechanic dependent on your stats in-game, it can’t be applied as per our rules on the site. On top of that, the characters just standing in the middle of area of effect attacks and the attack “missing” is very clearly a game mechanic. As such, it will not be used.

Who would scale to this?​

In short, anyone who has canonically fought Dark Green will be upgraded to MHS-MHS+ (aiming for the latter, however, given the speed we use for lightning on the wiki).

This includes:
Characters that scale above any of the listed characters in some form will also get (at least) MHS-MHS+.

We aren't going to backscale to characters like Peashy and Plutia, or keys like the BoS Key, because the feat was performed in VII, not in any earlier game, which is the same reason why we're getting rid of 7-C and Low 7-B. However, we have agreed to backscale this feat to Rei Ryghts, but it will only be for Rei Ryghts. No other character or key pre-VII will get this upgrade. Rei Ryghts only gets it because of how strong she is as an individual, given that she needed the entire RB;3 cast to take her down, hence she would logically scale above the individual cast members of VII. Therefore, her strength alone is what grants her the speed upgrade. Anybody else Pre-VII, however, is barred from the rating.

Tiering Tab.png

New BoS Tier / Throwing 7-C, Low 7-B and 5-B in the trash​

Both this calc and this calc have been considered unusable for a while now, so as a result, we are getting rid of the 7-C and Low 7-B tiers for our BoS characters. On top of that, we're removing 5-B due to the fact that it comes from a statement in a weapon description and has never been shown to happen in canon.

As for what tier will be replacing those, Low 2-C will be used with the same reasoning as in the first CRT - that being Histoire, whom we've already established in numerous ways is at Universal+ levels of power, and how characters like the Four Felons scale above her. Our reasoning for the latter part in particular is that Histoire does not attempt battling the Felons herself, thus showing that she isn't confident that she could defeat them. Not to mention, Histoire is a wielder of Share Energy, which would make her Low 2-C even if the other examples were not valid examples. You can see the section below for that.

But how does this scale to other BoS characters like IF, Compa or Nepgear? Well, our main source of evidence comes from IF's encounter with CFW Judge, one of the Four Felons.

In said encounter, IF attempts to hold him off whilst Compa attempts to rescue the binded Nepgear. In doing so, she shows clear signs of battle damage when Nepgear awakes, as well as admitting that "his strength is beyond anything I could've imagined".

So whilst IF is considerably weaker than Judge at this point in time, she was able to survive against a few of his blows - providing evidence that the BoS cast is within the same tier (albeit to a lower degree), and that other characters like Compa and Nepgear are around IF's level since they try to help but fail in the exact same manner.

This crucial plot element would've been contradicted had the tiers remained where they were, and we believe that this has enough justification to show why exactly the BoS cast will start out at Low 2-C.

Note: Whilst we are aware that this is mainly a durability feat, all of the cast members eventually defeat CFW Magic, the same character who defeated all four CPUs at the start of the game, later on in the story anyway. Due to the (supposed) short time frame for the cast members to catch up to Magic's level, we are assuming that the characters were roughly in the same tier, just on a lower level for this catch-up to make sense.

Additional Low 2-C Justifications!​

As of recent, we have been discussing, and we have discovered that, yes, there are new, additional justifications for this series' Low 2-C rating! While the first feat is quite ambiguous and doesn't actually happen on-screen (is only mentioned and reiterated through statements), the second one is basically a failsafe for if the first one is considered invalid and/or too vague to use, so we figured to go ahead and consider both. And these feats comes from none other than Uzume.

Feat and Explanation #1​

During the Heart Dimension H arc, we get a statement from Croire that Uzume had almost destroyed Hyper Dimension prior to her being sealed away before the beginning of the game. This statement was later reiterated by both Uzume and Umio later on within the route. Had Uzume not been stopped, she would have destroyed Hyper Dimension as a result, which would be a Low 2-C feat . This may seem a little unorthodox, using something that "almost" happened and making it a feat that scales to other characters within the series, but let me explain.

In the flashbacks that Uzume has in the scene where this moment is reiterated, there is a flashback in which a man states "Lady Uzume's illusion powers went out of control again...", meaning that Uzume did not have full control over her powers in the past. Even Umio noted that Uzume sealed herself away because she could not control her powers. Meaning, that if someone or something didn't stop Uzume when she was in the midst of destroying Hyper Dimension, it would have been completely destroyed, hence a Low 2-C feat. Even if it wasn't Low 2-C, this would at least be 3-A given the fact that we consider dimensions in this series to be universe-sized. So why are we using this? Why are we using something that didn't entirely happen and applying it to the profiles? Well. . .

Why are we using this?​

While this may seem risky, we are going ahead with the idea that Base Form Uzume was the one that performed this feat over her HDD Form. While it seems more reasonable to assume that her HDD Form was able to do this, we believe that her Base Form did it. Reason being. . .remember how the man mentioned "Lady Uzume's illusion powers went out of control again"? Well, in the cutscene prior to the Dark Green fight, Uzume creates a Share Crystal to free the CPUs from the Whirlpool of Delusion, but before she does, there's one peculiar line in there. . .

"Don't underestimate my illusion powers, "Me!""

There, she mentions her illusions powers, the same powers that, theoretically, almost destroyed Hyper Dimension in the past. Since it's been established that Uzume could not control her powers in the past, and that the man in the flashback mentions specifically that her illusion powers were out of control, it's safe to assume that Base Form Uzume is the form that performed this supposed feat. However, if that is deemed to be too uncertain and somewhat outlier-ish, we will instead switch to her HDD Form being the form to perform this feat instead.

Who scales to this?​

You could make the argument that nobody but Uzume should scale to this, but that's not necessarily the case here. Uzume's illusion powers are roughly comparable to the Share Energy that CPUs and Candidates use, primarily because of the fact that Uzume was able to create a Share Crystal using her illusion powers, thus allowing the CPUs to transform into their Next Forms. And keep in mind, this was Base Uzume that did this feat, and as a result, it would scale to the other Base Form CPUs, as well as anybody who scales at or above them. We haven't quite figured out the new scaling chain for all the games combined just yet (we haven't even gotten to scaling chains for RB;2 or RB;3 yet), so the ones that scale to and above this are still a mystery and need to be worked out, but in time, we will find out.

How do you know Base Uzume and Pre-Seal Uzume would scale to each other?​

A rather simple answer, actually. Kurome makes a statement of how she used Arfoire to make Uzume gather more Share Energy, allowing them both to gain more strength. So, in addition to the Negative Energy, the Sealed Uzume was also gaining more power through the Split Uzume collecting Share Energy. However, this would not be the case for Pre-Seal Uzume. That Uzume could only use Share Energy as their power source, exactly the same energy that the Uzume we know uses. No other additional sources. One might say that her illusion powers were a power source, but that was simply a special attribute of Uzume instead of an actual power source, much like her daydreaming abilities. So in that sense, the Split Base Uzume would be comparable to the Pre-Seal Base Uzume, and the same would also apply to their HDD Forms as well, hence why we are scaling them to each other.

But aren't Pre-Seal Uzume and Post-Revival Uzume the same person, aka, the True Uzume?​

This section is here just in-case anybody is confused by this subject.

Short answer, no, they aren't.

Long answer, it's a little bit complicated. Pre-Seal Uzume and Post-Revival Uzume might seem like the same person, since both are just Uzume. However, that's not the case. Pre-Seal Uzume, by her nature, is just one person, being Uzume Tennouboshi. However, when she sealed herself away, she split into two beings: Uzume and Kurome. Uzume and Kurome serve as the "avatars" of what is the sealed-away True Uzume, since both have physical bodies whilst the True Uzume does not, hence why we never actually see her until the cutscene of her revival. Post-Revival Uzume, however, is actually two people combined into one body. In the Revival Ending, Uzume and Kurome fused into one existence, and became the True Uzume once again.

But what does this all mean? Well, all-in-all, it means that Pre-Seal Uzume's person as a whole is different than Post-Revival Uzume, hence why they are not the same person. So, to reiterate, Pre-Seal Uzume is just one person, Uzume, whilst Post-Revival Uzume is two people fused into one existence, Uzume and Kurome.

Feat and Explanation #2​

This might seem a bit strange, but this second feat is actually a Stabilization Feat. Yes, yes, I know, sounds a bit dumb at first, but allow me to explain. Many of you might already know this, but Heart Dimension (and Zero Dimension) were created from the sealed-away True Uzume's dreams.. Simple enough, right? Well, it goes a little further than this. When Uzume died in the cutscene following the second fight against Dark Orange, Histoire noted that she had witnessed the disappearance of Zero Dimension and Heart Dimension. Essentially, this is confirming that Uzume's life is what is sustaining the Heart and Zero Dimensions (from here on, I'll just being saying "Heart Dimension" because Heart Dimension and Zero Dimension are the same thing). But what exactly does this mean? This isn't really enough to give Uzume another Low 2-C justification, is it? Well, let me explain.

Share Energy is the life of a CPU​

As I'm sure you know, Share Energy is the energy that a CPU uses, and has been described to be a CPU's source of strength. However, that's not all. Share Energy is also directly correlated to keeping the CPU alive. How, you may ask? Allow me to enlighten you. The True Uzume, while sealed away, had the remainder of her Share Energy inside of her crystallized and placed in the center of Heart Dimension, as explained by the bigger Neptune. Blanc, soon after, deduces that the reason why Uzume never died, in spite of the fact that the world forgot her, is a result of the Share Energy in the Share Crystal keeping her alive (it's a pretty cool Type 8 Immortality too lol). This is brought back up in the scene prior to the second Dark Orange fight, as Uzume notes that because of the sealed-away Uzume's Share Crystal getting destroyed, she had died because she lost her Shares, meaning that the Share Energy in the crystal was also destroyed, even though Uzume already said that she would leave some of the energy in there as to not get herself killed.

But what does this all prove?​

And that leads us to this. With all this in mind, what does it even mean? Essentially, this means that the Split Uzume is the one sustaining the Heart Dimension. Especially proved by the fact that, even though both the True Uzume and Kurome were dead in the Revival Ending route (at least, Kurome was prior to a cutscene where Uzume spots Kurome), Heart Dimension is still there, and Uzume is fighting off the monsters that were trying to enter Hyper Dimension as a result, essentially confirming that the Split Uzume is the one who is sustaining Heart Dimension. And because her life is directly correlated to Share Energy, and Share Energy is what is providing her the strength she needs, it is reasonable to assume that her stabilization can scale to her AP, hence Low 2-C. But just to make sure there aren't many doubts about this, let's take a look at what the Stabilization Feat requirements are.

"Requirement 1: Specify what exactly is being stabilized so that it is made clear what the character's sustainability is doing precisely."

Answer: It's quite obvious, but Heart Dimension is what is being stabilized and sustained here, and by Uzume as well, preventing it from disappearing.

"Requirement 2: Prove that the stabilized structure is being directly sustained by the power of the character and not from the character's abilities, life force, existence, magical properties or any unknown connection that is independent of their statistics."

Answer: As explained already, Share Energy is a CPU's power and life, which is what allows her to keep the Heart Dimension sustained.

"Requirement 3: Prove that the character's stabilization is comparable to the scale of the structure they are stabilizing. Preferably, it should be proven that the character's sustainability is comparable to the destruction of the structure to best show that their power rivals the destructive output of what would destroy the structure in the first place. Please keep in mind that this may vary depending on how the structure's destruction would occur. For example, if a character sustains the existence of a universe that would not be instantly or immediately destroyed when no longer supported, the power of their sustainability would not be comparable to destructive output that completely and immediately destroys a universe, and would not be sufficient enough to be given a 3-A or Low 2-C rating. However, their sustainability could be given either rating if the universe they sustain would be completely destroyed instantly or immediately without support."

Answer: We don't see it on-screen, but given there is such a small time-frame between when the cast leaves Heart Dimension, and when Histoire notes that Heart Dimension had disappeared, it is more than likely to be an immediate destruction. Anything else would require some baseless assumptions and/or headcanon. And there is also the fact of, when battling for the revival, Heart Dimension seemingly returned, indicated by the background of Heart Dimension, as well as the battlefield that Uzume and Kurome fight on, which appears in Heart Dimension (specifically, in the Depths of the Hearts dungeon, although the second Dark Orange battle takes place in Delusion Planeptune, which has same setting as Depths of the Heart), and later, was fully confirmed to have returned by Histoire in the epilogue cutscene. Of course, like explained above, Share Energy is a CPU's power, and since Share Energy is what is keeping Uzume alive, and subsequently, allowing for Heart Dimension to continue existing, this would make the sustainability comparable to the power.

"Requirement 4: Prove that the power of the character's stabilization consistently scales to their regular statistics, similar to our standards for creation feats."

Answer: Again, as it's already been explained: Share Energy = CPU's power, something that has been consistently portrayed throughout the series, which would logically scale to Uzume's Base Form.

So, given that this Stabilization feat seems to fit the bases required for this to be a valid and legitimate feat, it's safe to assume that this is a reasonable justification for the characters' Low 2-C rating within their profiles.

But Kurome was still there in the cutscene after the second Dark Orange fight, right? Uzume alone isn't stabilizing it.​

Presumably, in the cutscene following the second Dark Orange fight, Kurome was outright killed, and if not, she was unconscious and incapacitated. However, that does not change the fact that Uzume is the one stabilizing Heart Dimension. Even if Kurome was still there, albeit unconscious, and she was also contributing to the stabilization, then there should have been no reason for Heart Dimension to disappear, as noted by Histoire, since Kurome would still be alive, and thus, keep it there. Essentially: yes, Uzume alone does stabilize Heart Dimension, meaning Kurome does not have anything to do with the feat.

Does this scale to anybody?​

Indeed, it does. Since the Base Form CPUs all use Share Energy, it would scale to them, because Uzume is able to sustain it in her Base Form, even with as little Share Energy as she had in the Revival Ending. That, and all Base Form CPUs are comparable to each other. So anybody who scales slightly less than (the Makers, maaaybe Histoire), equally to (Base Candidates, Gold Third), or above the Base Form CPUs (HDD Forms and whatnot) would get an additional justification for their Low 2-C rating.

Why would those slightly weaker than the CPUs scale to the Low 2-C?​

Simply put, we rarely ever see the Share amounts in this series nearly reach zero, and the one such instance of this happening off the top of my head would be at the beginning of Re;Birth 2, where Gamindustri is in the midst of the crisis set in motion by ASIC, and the CPUs' Shares plummeted dramatically after having most of the people put their beliefs into the Deity of Sin. Most of the time, we see the CPUs in a range of Low to Average levels of Shares, and we have seen that the Makers are able to fight near-equally to the CPUs, so therefore, they would only slightly downscale and potentially make them the baseline for Low 2-C.

But what if all of these feats aren't Low 2-C? What would the ratings be instead?​

In the case that these feats aren't Low 2-C, they would instead just be 3-A. Admittedly, a slight downgrade, but nothing too drastic. This, however, becomes null if the next portion is accepted as legitimate.


Potential 1-C Upgrade​

Oh yes, we’re discussing this particular set of statements again. And this is possibly going to be the most controversial entry out of everything you’ve read so far.

I’ve put this up for questioning already in a Q&A thread, but sadly I only got one response and that’s (obviously) not enough to push this forward or dismiss it in its entirety, so I’d like to take the opportunity to do so here to see what everyone thinks.

As said earlier, I understand how controversial this can be so please do be sure when agreeing or disagreeing on the CRT as a whole that you specify whether this in particular sounds agreeable or not.

The actual feat/statement​

Here’s the statements in question.

From how Nepgear describes it, the laws of dimensions in Neptunia is pretty set in stone.

Until a future game proves us otherwise, she describes dimensions in multidimensional space to:

  • Have coordinates that should never change in any circumstance (Unless obviously tampered with, which was done twice by characters Rei Ryghts and Kurome Ankokuboshi, with the latter stealing the former’s power to pull this off).
  • Have at least 9 coordinates for every single dimension.
And, while not mentioned by Nepgear - by Kurome instead - if a dimension's coordinates overlap, then they fuse together.

Most Probable Questions - Answered​

1. “But wasn’t this already debunked long ago?”

Yes, under the pretence that the dimensional coordinates are just “vague random numbers”.

I’d like to explain why I personally think that can’t be the case:
  • The concepts of higher dimensions, as well as the dimensional coordinates & dimension hopping, have appeared in multiple places throughout the franchise– with terms like “planes”, “bi-dimensional” and “tri-dimensional existences” being used as early as the second game in the franchise (Mk2). Which would most likely make what was written down less of a random “I thought it would be cool” thing, and more of an intentional choice.
    • The fact that these dimensional coordinatesreturn and are even expandedupon in VII's remake (VIIR) should hopefully provide you some supporting evidence for this.
  • All but one coordinate stayed the same when Zero Dimension was being moved towards Hyper Dimension. If the numbers were truly “random”, as was originally claimed, then every single number/coordinate would’ve changed upon the Zero Dimension moving. But yet, they don't.
    • This further provides a bit of supporting evidence to the assumption that the writers more or less know what they're intentionally referring to rather than just the typical nonsense you sometimes hear in fictional media.
2. "How can you prove that these coordinates are actually showing 9 dimensional planes, rather than just its total position?"

In addition to what I wrote above of there being evidence to show that the writers are aware of the concepts linking to higher dimensions, I’d like to also answer this in the form of an example that I thought up of to express how I perceive this. Let’s take Sonic 3’s Debug Mode for instance, since they show the 2-D coordinates of Sonic at all times:

AIfoF8h.gif


Note the X and Y coordinates of Sonic overlapping the Score counter. Also note that despite only one coordinate changing, there’s a set of secondary coordinates too – that, of course, being the Y coordinate below the changing numbers above.

Keep in mind, however, that despite Sonic quite clearly being in a “bouncing” animation here, he is only moving on the X axis due to it just being an animation. You can still apply this to many other examples which I will bring up in a bit.

Just because only one coordinate changed here, does that mean that Sonic in this game is only 1-D? If Sonic were to run in a straight line with no obstacles to jump over, does that also make him 1-D because only one coordinate changes during the duration of the run?

Of course not, because the Y-coordinate, despite not changing, still have values.

Therefore, it would only be logical to say that Sonic in this game is 2-D, right?

I’ve applied the same principle here. Despite Kurome only moving the Zero Dimension through one coordinate/plane, the other coordinates still have values in this 9-D space, thus indicating that there’s depth in all nine planes of this 9-D space.

A 3-D or 4-D object, or in this case a universe, would not have depth (or to simplify, numbers) in every plane of 9-D space. Yes, it is possible that 3-D/4-D objects can exist in a 9-D space, but they would not have values in every plane of this 9-D space if they truly were 3-D/4-D. They would merely have 3 or 4 coordinates with the rest being blank.

To prove this - a logical example of a 3-D object's coordinates in 9-D space would be theoretically look something like - 0 : 0 : 0 : 0 : 0 : 0 : 172 : 371 : 341 . As such, it would not be possible for a 3-D Universe to be positioned in all nine planes, and suggesting otherwise would make no sense - as there simply aren't enough planes for the 3-D universe to encompass all 9 coordinates.

3. "Isn't this just Higher Dimensional Manipulation?"

To some degree, but it can be argued that due to our aforementioned explanation on how Share Energy works that this is still valid reasoning.

If you're unconvinced and would rather label that as hax, there is one saving grace that provides a lot more justification as to why the characters should get this tier - and this comes from Uzume yet again. More specifically, going back to her stabilisation feat.

Due to all dimensions (that we know of), currently possessing 9 coordinates - and as such 9 dimensions, this would make Uzume's stablisation feat a lot more impressive, considering that she essentially birthed and stabilised a 9-D universe alone, even with the very low amount of shares she had in the Revival Ending.

As a result of this, any character that is comparable or scales above Low-Shares Uzume would logically be valid for 1-C, which would be all Base Form CPU cast members, as well as anyone that scales to or above Histoire's level. More information can be found back in the stablisation section above detailing who else would be valid for this tier.

4. “How can you prove that the Ultra Dimension, or any other dimension for that matter, has 9 coordinates like the other two dimensions? It’s not even mentioned!”

Easy.

If the Ultra Dimension characters belonged to a 3-D/4-D world instead of a 9-D world, then interactions with a 9-D world such as Hyper Dimension, which has happened in the series twice at this point (Re;Birth 3 and VII), would just not be possible, since it wouldn’t even be able to be perceived due to how higher dimensions work, so there's no contradiction there.

The Ultra Dimension and Hyper Dimension characters are perfectly capable of exploring both universes without any problem, especially in VII, the game where these dimensional coordinates were introduced, yet Ultra Dimension Neptune is able to enter both Hyper Dimension and Heart Dimension with no trouble whatsoever. And this again remains consistent from Re;Birth 3 to VII.

Big Neptune was even successfully able to explore a dimension that is implied to be the one where the game Producing Perfection takes place, suggesting that even the spin-off dimensions are also 9-D universes.

Let’s not even get onto how massively stomped they would be for even trying to contend with the Hyper Dimension characters, even if we ignored the fact that they shouldn’t even be able to perceive or even have knowledge of Hyper Dimension in the first place, in this hypothetical scenario.

5. “Let’s say this was a legitimate thing. How does the cast scale to this?”

Well, this will be accomplished with the use of the cast battling against Rei in Re;Birth 3, as well as the description of the NEXT Forms (essentially the “Super Saiyan 2” of Neptunia) in the next game, VII.

The NEXT Forms have a Nepedia statement that describes them to possess a level of power that “No HDD until now held” – and this statement is consistent in both VII and its’ remake, VIIR (which has both added and adjusted entries in the Nepedia).

This would extend past HDD Rei in even her prime with all her power, as the HDD Rei we see battling the CPUs is just with a little bit of power left – yet, even with this fact in mind, she was still able to pierce dimensions with the amount of power that she had, and is stated to be comparable to the whole cast fighting together all at once.

This dimension piercing of her’s was only able to be accomplished with the power of share energy, the same energy that all the other CPUs use throughout the series, as she is not shown to have access to this power unless she is channeling her inner energy that allows her to go HDD in the first place.

With that aside, that leads us onto:

6. “If this does go through, how far does the scaling change?”

Not a whole lot, actually.

The main thing that would change would be that the Low 2-C and 2-C ratings would just get swapped out for 1-C. Other than that, the scaling would remain pretty much the same.

9P4TAND.png

All/Majority of the cast members will get:​

All Share Energy cast members will get:​

For what all Share Energy users will get, see this page. The abilities will depend on the status of the user, so CPUs will get abilities that Oracles don't and vice-versa.

These abilities will be applied to:

CPU-only Additions (unrelated to Share Energy usage)​

This will be applied to:

Cast-Specific Additions:​

Formation/Coupling Skill ability additions:​

The additions of these abilities will be based on this video of all the VIIR Formation/Coupling Skill animations.

Debunking a few pre-existing abilities​

It has come to our attention that some of the abilities that are still currently on the profiles are things that we consider Game Mechanics or Outliers after a more thorough look - and as such, they will be removed.

There are also potential abilities that are not currently on the profiles, and we'd like to use this section to debunk those as well before they're questioned on by somebody else.

eRJ043R.png

Currently, the scaling chain that we use for the series is a mess - with most of the problems with the original chain stemming from VII.

There are some inaccuracies, as well as a few characters that are left out that contribute a lot to the chains themselves. Please note that we will primarily be focusing on VII's scaling here, and the previous games will be taken more into account for Part 3 of the revisions.

For reference, the original scaling chain looked like this:

Full Power Dark Orange > NEXT forms > Full Power HDD Rei Ryghts > Base Kurome with Rei's powers > Depowered Dark Orange > First Battle HDD Rei Ryghts > Post-Merging Base Uzume > Base Kurome > Arfoire fused with Dark Purple > Dark CPUs > HDD Orange Heart > Powered up HDD Yellow Heart >= High shares Yellow Heart = High Shares Iris Heart >= High Shares HDD CPUs = Gold Third with Crystal > High Shares HDD Candidates >= True DoS Arfoire (Hyperdimension and Zero Dimension) > DoS Arfoire (Hyperdimension and Zero Dimension) > CFW Magic >= Average Shares HDD Iris Heart = Average Shares HDD Yellow Heart >= Average Shares HDD CPUs = Gold Third without Crystal >= Base Arfoire (Zero Dimension) >= Arfoire (Ultradimension, DoS and TDoS) > Average Shares HDD Candidates > CFW Judge, Trick and Brave > Ultradimension Neptune > Histy > Makers = Base CPUs = Base Gold Third = Base CPU Candidates > Low Shares HDD CPUs = Low Faith Gold Third > Low Shares HDD Candidates > lowest base CPUs > lowest base Candidates > RB2 start Makers

I don't think this needs to be said, but there are many issues with this scaling chain as a whole. Some of the most notable examples are Low Shares HDD users being below their Base Forms, the "Faith" levels with the Gold Third (which has never even been shown to be a variable in VII), Base Form CPUs, Candidates, and Makers being below Histoire, Orange Heart being in a place where she shouldn't be, etc. So, as a result, we have decided to do a makeover of the franchise scaling chain by making a scaling chain for each individual game and combining them all into one. Unfortunately, due to various circumstances, the RB;2 and RB;3 scaling chains are not entirely finished yet, so VII is the only chain that has been completely redone, but hopefully in Part 3, this issue will be resolved.

( ⇄ ) Interchangeable depending on uncertainty

( >= ) Stronger than

( ≥= ) Stronger than or equal to

( = ) is equal to

There will be explanations next to most of these entries. Some might not have one either because the reasoning has been stated already, the reasoning is obvious, or because there is an unclear reasoning other than simply being in the story. This chain only accounts for canon, non-DLC characters. Characters like Nitroplus and Million Arthur are not considered when it comes to this chain. On top of that, we're not going to be using any non-combat applicable characters/listings, like the Sealed Uzume, since those entities cannot fight and, as such, cannot be listed.

Next Forms ⇄ Full Power Dark Orange (These placements are heavily dependent on the level of Shares the Next Forms possess. see below for explanation) > Base Kurome w/ Rei’s powers (Rei’s powers puts Base Kurome way up here; Dark Orange being weakened by a Sharing Field is what makes the depowered version lower) > Depowered Dark Orange (Severely weakened by both the Sharing Field as well as the Sealed Uzume's Share Crystal being drained of most of its Share Energy) > Base Kurome w/o Rei’s powers (since the Dark CPUs are created by her, and are created from her Negative Energy, she scales above them) > High Shares T/PR Orange Heart ≥ Complete Dark CPUs (Possesses the strength of, presumably, the High Share HDD CPUs according to what we discussed, though this might not be true depending on circumstances, see below for explanation) ⇄ High Share HDD CPUs (Strongest variable of this form) > High Share HDD Candidates > Full Power Dark Purple-infused Arfoire (Has Rei's powers and isn’t weakened by the Sharing Field, so she’s more powerful) > Incomplete Dark CPUs (Dark Purple, while only ever having been fought once on her lonesome, is implied to be above True DoS Arfoire if Arfoire genuinely needed to fuse with Dark Purple in order to try and defeat the group at the time) > True DoS Arfoire (Above her DoS form, which has been shown to be able to easily hold back both Purple Sister and Orange Heart in battle, and in the Heart Dimension arc, her True DoS Form needed to be taken down by Purple and Black Sister, Orange Heart, and Ultra Dimension Neptune) > Depowered Dark Purple-infused Arfoire (Has Rei’s powers, but was weakened by the Sharing Field) > Affimojas (Was able to hold back the four HDD CPUs, two of which are at average Share levels, that being Neptune and Blanc) > DoS Arfoire > Average Shares T/PR Orange Heart > Average Shares HDD CPUs > Gold Third w/ Crystal (The nature of this form with the Crystal does make the form more powerful than normal, but said form with the Crystal was able to be defeated by HDD CPUs at Average Shares or lower, hence why it is not more powerful than that level) > Gold Form w/o Crystal > Average Shares HDD Candidates > Ultra Dimension Neptune (At the time she came in, she was able to help Purple Sister and Orange Heart beat DoS Arfoire, and later in the game, during Vert’s route, we see her hold back both Vert and Nepgear in their Base Forms, with the hint that she wasn’t even going all out since she was just there to stall) ⇄ Base Arfoire (Although she was struggling against Purple Sister and Orange Heart upon battling her for the first time, she, in the Heart Dimension arc, was able to put Ultra Dimension Neptune on the run, who had previously given her DoS Form and even True DoS a hard time in the Zero Dimension arc, so it's debatable whether or not either one is stronger than the other) Below-average Shares T/PR Orange Heart > Warechu King > Below-average Shares HDD CPUs > Below-average Shares HDD Candidates > Low Shares T/PR Orange Heart > Steamax > Low Shares HDD CPUs > Low Shares HDD Candidates > Very low Shares T/PR Orange Heart > Very low Shares HDD CPUs > Very low Shares HDD Candidates > True/Post-Revival Uzume (Has the power of both Uzume and Kurome since she is the sum of both parts, but does not have the power of Kurome when amped by Negative Energy or her own hatred, so it's barebones Base Uzume and Base Kurome) > Base CPUs = Base Candidates = Base Gold Third > Makers > Beginning of game Neptune = Beginning of game Nepgear

Some clarifications on some placement changes​

Since I know there are some shifts in the position of characters, I'll go into depth as to why some are that way.

Next Forms and Full Power Dark Orange​

After some debating in the group, we have decided to change the current placement of Full Power Dark Orange and the Next Forms. Currently, we have their placements as interchangeable. However, they are only interchangeable because of the level of Shares that the Next Forms have to be at in order to surpass Full Power Dark Orange. As it stands, we are going along with what the plot dictates, in which, the Next Form users are unsure of their victory against Dark Orange, which leads to Uzume using up most of her life supply, weakening Dark Orange on top of the Sharing Field. As such, we are putting Dark Orange above the Next Forms, BUT, only for certain levels of Shares.

As we know, much like the HDD Forms, the Next Forms are able to gain more strength through varying levels of Shares. This is most notably seen in the scene where the Next Form CPUs attempt to purify Uzume's Share Crystal. They fail, but Umio notes that there is a "lack of energy issue", which means that the CPUs at that point in time had lower levels of Shares, hence the reasoning for why the Next Forms have this attribute. So, it has been discussed and decided upon that the general Share levels of the Heart Dimension arc are Below-average Shares. But what does this mean for Full Power Dark Orange? Well, truth be told, we don't know. Outside of a Sharing Field, we don't know how much Shares the Next Forms need to surpass Full Power Dark Orange. At most, it would need to be High Shares, and at least, it would be Average Shares. So there is a bit of a gray area in that regard. At bare minimum, High Share Next Forms are above Full Power Dark Orange, but more discussion would be needed to be certain if Average Shares is also a requirement to be above Full Power Dark Orange.

Dark Purple-infused Arfoire​

Dark Purple-infused Arfoire has had a few changes in her spot. Specifically, she now has two spots. One where she is at full strength, and another where she is weakened. This is because she actually stole Rei's powers from Croire, as well as had the power of (Incomplete) Dark Purple fused together. Essentially, one spot is for when she's not weakened by the Sharing Field, and the other is for when she is.

Post-Revival/True Uzume​

Recently, there was a discussion about the strength of the Post-Revival/True Uzume (in both Base and HDD Form), and we've generally reached a conclusion that, yes, while Post-Revival Uzume is both the Split Uzume and Kurome fused into one existence, that doesn't necessarily mean that she is at a level above Kurome. Reason being, Kurome is significantly buffed by her own Negative Energy, as well as her hatred, and her becoming stronger every time the Split Uzume was gathering Share Energy, which we consider as a similar type of buff to Negative Energy. In short, Post-Revival Uzume is just the barebones states of both Uzume and Kurome, which, given they are the same person, is just Base Form CPU level x2, hence why she has been considerably lowered from her previous spot in the scaling chain.

High Shares HDD CPUs and Dark CPUs​

Another difference between this chain and the old chain is the Dark CPUs. They now have two spots: their Incomplete selves, and Complete selves. They are separated this way because, in the Heart Dimension arc, the Dark CPUs absorb the powers of the CPUs, thus making them more powerful. But how powerful, exactly? Well, we already know that, based upon Kurome's surprise to seeing the Next Forms, they can't be on the level of the Next Form's strength. So, currently, we are gauging the Dark CPUs' strength to be equal to the High Shares HDD CPUs (although that is very subject to change). Since they could not absorb the Next Form's strength, it was the next (no pun intended) best level of strength they went with, which is High Shares HDD, thus why they are close to High Shares HDD CPUs.

Base Forms and (Very) Low Shares HDD Forms​

Yep, we're covering this one. I don't think this needs to be said, but, the rating of Base Forms above Low Share HDD Forms is just. . .absolutely not.

Hard Drive Divinity, no matter how little Shares it is at, is always shown to be a amp in strength from the Base Form, not a decrease. As such, even Very Low Shares HDD Forms are going to be above the Base Form. Never before in the series has HDD been shown to decrease the strength of a CPU (Candidate), since that would literally go against the whole point of the form and Share Energy in the first place. As such, we're putting Base Forms below all variables of the HDD Form.

The Gold Form and the Gold Crystal​

If you've noticed, we've significantly moved down the Gold Form with the Gold Crystal, below even HDD CPUs at Average Shares. Compare that with the previous chain, where we considered them equal, that's quite a drop. So why? Well, the reasoning is quite simple. The form doesn't get all that more powerful.

The first fight with the CPUs and the Gold Third is extreme PIS. The CPUs, most likely at Average Shares given the events that took place (the festival), being beaten by the Gold Third, then come back and beat the Gold Third with a Gold Crystal, which, for all intents and purposes, essentially acts like a Share Crystal, albeit not to the same degree. And to add salt to the wound, both Noire and Vert have much lower Shares than the other two, Neptune and Blanc, whom are at Average Shares in their respective arcs. Noire even ended up defeating K-Sha alone the first time they fought, which further enforces the idea that the power increase is not that larger.

There is a small exception, though, and that's with Neptune vs. B-Sha, where the two appear to be in a stalemate and injured equally before Neptune ends up bringing B-Sha back to her normal self. So, in that sense, you can say that the two are equal. However, this does not preclude Neptune from being more powerful than B-Sha, or any of the other Gold Third members for that matter. In fact, the other fights support this idea that she is potentially stronger, but for the sake of the story, it's just not shown that way. Because of that, the Gold Form with the Gold Crystal is moved down below the Average Shares HDD CPUs, and thus will lose their 2-C rating.

New Characters​

There are some new characters added to the scaling chain: Affimojas, Steamax, and Warechu King. They were omitted in the previous chain, even though they are some decently major characters in the context of VII's story. Nothing much else to say here other than that this should provide a bit more meat to the scaling chain.

Conclusion​

And that's it from us for now. Phew, that was a lot to go through!

Thank you for taking the time to read through this absurdly massive CRT. If you have any questions, feel free to make a comment about it below, and we'll do our best to answer it.
 
Haven't you a hint of shame?

Anyways, since I was one of the people who helped to make this CRT, I obviously agree with everything barring the 1-C stuff. That's Kaio's territory so I'll let him handle it when that stuff gets brought up, and I shall remain neutral for that part.
 
Most of this is fine except for tier 1.

We don't hand out tiers based solely off of dimensions anymore. The fact that there are 9 dimensions in the Ultradimension doesn't mean a lot because we don't know if these dimensions are infinitely superior to a normal 3-D plane of existence. As far as we know they're just directions, which doesn't grant a tier anymore. You could probably get higher-dimensional manipulation though.

Also I disagree with removing conceptual cut. Just because it's a statement doesn't mean it's invalid, abstract stuff isn't easy to show in a single animation like that.
 
Edwardtruong2006 said:
Also I disagree with removing conceptual cut. Just because it's a statement doesn't mean it's invalid, abstract stuff isn't easy to show in a single animation like that.
Click to expand...
Yes, but that's the only thing it has going for it. No other statements in the cutscenes or in any Nepedia entries, just in the attack description. We're not using it for the same reason that we don't use, say, Ultra Nep's History Sword Croire description; it's never shown or stated to be a thing in anything other than the description.
 
The question for the speed? Was there a clear animation that some of them dodged it? If there was then you need to get it calculated but if there was no instance of anyone dodging no one scales

For the AP upgrade can you send the video link for better context as I did a brief skim through and yeah it looks vague as hell to me
 
FINALLY ITS HERE!! MY SUFFERING FOR THE WAITING IS OVER NOW!!

Oh shit, tier 1 stuff, huh? I'm going with neutral for now, the rest i need a time for looking at it
 
Edwardtruong2006 said:
Most of this is fine except for tier 1.

We don't hand out tiers based solely off of dimensions anymore. The fact that there are 9 dimensions in the Ultradimension doesn't mean a lot because we don't know if these dimensions are infinitely superior to a normal 3-D plane of existence. As far as we know they're just directions, which doesn't grant a tier anymore. You could probably get higher-dimensional manipulation though.
Click to expand...
Fair enough. The cosmology of the series doesn't really specify any information of the exact size of a dimension or "higher dimensional superiority".
As such, I'm willing to drop 1-C in favour of the Low 2-C and 2-C ratings we've also established in the OP.

Edwardtruong2006 said:
Also I disagree with removing conceptual cut. Just because it's a statement doesn't mean it's invalid, abstract stuff isn't easy to show in a single animation like that.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, quite a lot of statements and skill/weapon descriptions in this series are highly exaggerated just for fluff/humour.
Because of this, we usually look for extra evidence/justification before we take the descriptions seriously.

In this case, there is no extra evidence to suggest that what Next Purple does with her attack relates to Conceptual Manipulation. It's also been shown many times throughout the series that she (Neptune) exaggerates stuff just to make herself look better, and some skill/weapon descriptions are modelled after what the respective character would think of the attack/weapon.

Pain_to12 said:
The question for the speed? Was there a clear animation that some of them dodged it? If there was then you need to get it calculated but if there was no instance of anyone dodging no one scales
Click to expand...
There is no animation for the cast dodging the lightning, as it's mainly done within the game - but the series usually does a good job in it's cutscenes after a battle as to whether the characters struggled against the enemy they were fighting or not.

To re-iterate our argument, we believe that the cast can scale to Dark Green's attack because none of the characters in the cutscene right after was shown or told to have struggled during the battle, or suffered any battle damage - therefore implying that they were able to successfully keep up with and dodge the lightning. And, again, the series is usually very good at showing whether a character (or characters) found it hard to keep up.

Pain_to12 said:
For the AP upgrade can you send the video link for better context as I did a brief skim through and yeah it looks vague as hell to me
Click to expand...
Mind specifying as to which AP section you're referring to?
We have both Tier 2 and Tier 1 in the OP.
 
I'm fine with everything except the tiering. Not because it's wrong, but because I'm the last person to go to for anything above 3-A
 
Neutral on speed. Abilities and Low 2-C tiering seem fine at first glance.

Hmm, looking at this again after that first thread, 1-C might work, we have no reason to assume that they're radically different from the regular 3 dimensions of space that are part of those coordinates, which would mean that they're significant in size (considering that they're relative to them) and thus qualify for being higher infinities. I could see a "Low 2-C, possibly 1-C" but this is just me.

Neutral on scaling since I'm not familiar with the verse.
 
Planck69 said:
Hmm, looking at this again after that first thread, 1-C might work, we have no reason to assume that they're radically different from the regular 3 dimensions of space that are part of those coordinates, which would mean that they're significant in size (considering that they're relative to them) and thus qualify for being higher infinities. I could see a "Low 2-C, possibly 1-C" but this is just me.
Click to expand...
What, how
 
Vietthai96 said:
What, how
Click to expand...
If these other spatial dimensions exist then Zero Dimension extends through them to a similar degree as it does its 3 dimensions of length, width and height, since the coordinates seem to not be overwhelmingly different in magnitude. Which would mean the spatial dimensions are of a non-insignificant size and make the Dimension as a whole a large 9-dimensional structure, which qualifies for 1-C.

Again, this is my understanding of the statements mentioned.
 
A compromise of "Low 2-C/2-C, possibly 1-C" could work, but we obviously need some more input on that to say for certain whether or not it works.
 
Planck69 said:
If these other spatial dimensions exist then Zero Dimension extends through them to a similar degree as it does its 3 dimensions of length, width and height, since the coordinates seem to not be overwhelmingly different in magnitude. Which would mean the spatial dimensions are of a non-insignificant size and make the Dimension as a whole a large 9-dimensional structure, which qualifies for 1-C.
Click to expand...
Your thinking goes pretty wild and far. Zero Dimension is just the name of the Dimension though. anyway sleep first, i will go back later
 
Vietthai96 said:
Your thinking goes pretty wild and far. Zero Dimension is just the name of the Dimension though. anyway sleep first, i will go back later
Click to expand...
...Did I imply anything else?

But get some rest. This thread ain't going anywhere.
 
Just to clarify, we aren't pushing for 1-C like it's a necessity, we're just taking it into consideration after looking at it extensively and reviewing the Tiering System FAQ a few times.

If it gets rejected, then it's fine.
 
KaiokenBlueGT said:
There is no animation for the cast dodging the lightning, as it's mainly done within the game - but the series usually does a good job in it's cutscenes after a battle as to whether the characters struggled against the enemy they were fighting or not.

To re-iterate our argument, we believe that the cast can scale to Dark Green's attack because none of the characters in the cutscene right after was shown or told to have struggled during the battle, or suffered any battle damage - therefore implying that they were able to successfully keep up with and dodge the lightning. And, again, the series is usually very good at showing whether a character (or characters) found it hard to keep up.
Click to expand...
I don’t think none of the characters not stated to have struggled or shown to have struggled should mean that they dodged the attack it should be the other way round “they were stated to not have struggled against the attack”
The current speed proposal is based on an assumption
KaiokenBlueGT said:
Mind specifying as to which AP section you're referring to?
We have both Tier 2 and Tier 1 in the OP.
Click to expand...
Tier 1
 
Pain_to12 said:
I don’t think none of the characters not stated to have struggled or shown to have struggled should mean that they dodged the attack it should be the other way round “they were stated to not have struggled against the attack”
The current speed proposal is based on an assumption
Click to expand...
Here's the thing, Dark Green (the one who initiated the attack), even within a Sharing Field that is weakening her powers, is still above all the cast members that fought her individually.
So, since this is the case - saying that the characters can just "handle the attack" doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. Especially a storm that encompasses the whole field and would've striked at every single cast member that was present for the battle, including Maker characters like IF and Compa that are statistically inferior to the CPUs.

Pain_to12 said:
Tier 1
Click to expand...
Here ya' go.
 
KaiokenBlueGT said:
Here's the thing, Dark Green (the one who initiated the attack), even within a Sharing Field that is weakening her powers, is still above all the cast members that fought her individually.
So, since this is the case - saying that the characters can just "handle the attack" doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. Especially a storm that encompasses the whole field and would've striked at every single cast member that was present for the battle, including Maker characters like IF and Compa that are statistically inferior to the CPUs.
Click to expand...
So why should the casts scale to it? I get that Dark green should herb MHS+ attack speed with lightning but just don’t see why everyone else should a scale to it if they never dodged it
 
Pain_to12 said:
So why should the casts scale to it? I get that Dark green should herb MHS+ attack speed with lightning but just don’t see why everyone else should a scale to it if they never dodged it
Click to expand...
He's basically saying that because Dark Green is above each character individually by a big amount even when weakened, the cast can't afford to be hit by the lightning or they'll end up taking serious damage, so they dodge it instead, hence why we're scaling them.
 
thetechmaster36 said:
He's basically saying that because Dark Green is above each character individually by a big amount even when weakened, the cast can't afford to be hit by the lightning or they'll end up taking serious damage, so they dodge it instead, hence why we're scaling them.
Click to expand...
And I’m saying they were never shown or stated to dodge it and with CDGs of games we don’t make such assumptions
 
Pain_to12 said:
And I’m saying they were never shown or stated to dodge it and with CDGs of games we don’t make such assumptions
Click to expand...
That doesn't mean they didn't dodge it though? I've already given you an explanation: Dark Green is stronk, cast is individually much weaker than it so they can't be hit by the lightning or else they'll take serious damage, therefore they dodge.

And again, let's say for the sake of argument that they didn't dodge, they would have had to express some form of injury like a few of the other cutscenes in the game do. Saying "we didn't see it so it didn't happen" isn't a good argument in the case of having some actual reasoning to back up the proposal.
that and the game is an rpg so they're usually meant to stand still when an enemy attacks but that's not a good reason so gg
 
thetechmaster36 said:
That doesn't mean they didn't dodge it though? I've already given you an explanation: Dark Green is stronk, cast is individually much weaker than it so they can't be hit by the lightning or else they'll take serious damage, therefore they dodge.

And again, let's say for the sake of argument that they didn't dodge, they would have had to express some form of injury like a few of the other cutscenes in the game do. Saying "we didn't see it so it didn't happen" isn't a good argument in the case of having some actual reasoning to back up the proposal.
that and the game is an rpg so they're usually meant to stand still when an enemy attacks but that's not a good reason so gg
Click to expand...
Saying “we didn’t see it so they dodged it” is a worse reasoning, if your only reason for saying they dodged something they were not shown to dodge is that the attacker is strong, then I disagree with the speed
 
Pain_to12 said:
Saying “we didn’t see it so they dodged it” is a worse reasoning, if your only reason for saying they dodged something they were not shown to dodge is that the attacker is strong, then I disagree with the speed
Click to expand...
So what you're essentially implying is that they should be tanking the attacks and not dodging them. By an entity that is far stronger than them individually. K.
 
You could probably put a 'likely' or 'possibly' for the speed ratings. I do think the assumptions are fine but I can see why some would be hesitant.
 
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