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Huge Legend of Zelda Upgrades

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Dust_Collector

Dust_Collector

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Starting off we have the Wind Fish. This was discussed in a thread about the Triforces tiering but it wasn't to a great extent and not added to any profiles so I'm bringing it up again. The dream world created by the Wind Fish was stated to be a parallel universe, which obviously would make it universal in size and would bump him up, as well as Demise and Hylias high end tiers, from 4-A to 3-A/Low 2-C

Thanks to Firestorm for finding the archive link for the old version of the official Zelda site: https://web.archive.org/web/20010521063744/http://www.zelda.com/games_la.html



Next we have the Golden Goddesses feat of creating millions of worlds:
https://web.archive.org/web/20120319035629/https://www.zelda.com/universe/pedia/t.jsp

"When Hyrule was created by the three goddesses at the beginning of time, there were certain side effects of its creation which Din, Nayru, and Farore did not anticipate. As the three holy women breathed life into the world and chased away Emptiness, their potent breath slipped through tiny cracks in the folds of space and created millions of alternate worlds in the process. One of these worlds became the land known as Termina.

It is possible that we would know nothing of Termina's existence if Link had not been led there by the mischievous actions of Skull Kid. Termina is very similar to Hyrule, but at the same time extremely different"

These alternate worlds are likely entire universes given how they mention Termina.
 
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If we accept that as canon and not some eng translation bullshit.

I'm fine with it as well.
 
Wind Fish is a glass cannon yes, and it was discussed previously that the Dream World was a legit land with seas and skies around it that it was going to collapse at the end of the game. But Hylia is stated to be "Superior to all lower deities".
 
Eficiente said:
The same source says that it may have all been a dream, why would it scale to others?

And why would making a realm inside a dream matter outside Reality Equalization?
Click to expand...
I mean, it literally is a dream, just not Link's.
The wind fish is on some Azathoth shit, the whole world of Koholint is his dream.

Because everything in that dream is real, the people, the land, the sea, the sky, the monsters, everything truly exists, it's just conjured into being by the Wind Fish and if he wakes up, it ceases to exist. But obviously we know the adventure happens and Link truly did go and wake the wind fish, it wasnt something he just tripped really badly and dreamt up.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Wind Fish is a glass cannon yes, and it was discussed previously that the Dream World was a legit land with seas and skies around it that it was going to collapse at the end of the game. But Hylia is stated to be "Superior to all lower deities".
Click to expand...
I bring it to question again then, they may as well have gone with a wrong conclusion considering they didn't have time to write valid reasons for it in the fish's profile. I'm superior to and beat up everyone weaker than me, that doesn't mean I upscale to everyone in the universe, let alone beings outside the universe, let alone if they weren't even born yet.

Chariot190 said:
I mean, it literally is a dream, just not Link's.
The wind fish is on some Azathoth shit, the whole world of Koholint is his dream.
Click to expand...
Given how Link gets in and out, how do we not know some Immersion didn't put him in a dream-like realm less context than the universe?
Chariot190 said:
Because everything in that dream is real, the people, the land, the sea, the sky, the monsters, everything truly exists, it's just conjured into being by the Wind Fish and if he wakes up, it ceases to exist.
Click to expand...
This is something that can happen with Immersion, of the top of my mind the Fairly OddParents has the same and more.
 
Tbf, a parallel world can still be a realm in a dream less real than reality, it just has to have things our world has like people, a society, etc. without weird otherworldly things, but I see the point.

We can focus on how would others scale to this.
 
Eficiente said:
We can focus on how would others scale to this.
Click to expand...
The complete Triforce and those who use it scale to this for pretty obvious reasons, Hylia, and by extension Demise, can be argued to scale to the Wind Fish as she's treated a more important and powerful deity than he is. Although the lack of concrete comparisons to him is the reason why we didn't just straight up scale her and added it as a likely, and I know there's a few people who aren't entirely sold on the scaling but the level of importance Hylia holds in comparison to the Wind Fish is noticable. Due to some Light Force shenanigans it can also be argued that Vaati and individual Triforce pieces scale to Hylia and the Wind Fish (So basically everyone who is currently at least 5-B).
 
Eficiente said:
Do I need to point out why that's wrong?
Click to expand...
I mean, you kinda have to yeah.

Dust Collector
Click to expand...

Though I understand the complete Triforce and Hylia due to being stated > other God's and all that shit. (Plus the triforce iirc has a universal feat elsewhere, idk how we treat that though).

Vaati, at the very least, is a huge stretch and same with single triforce pieces. They have no feats on that caliber, and I dont recall it ever being stated a single piece is > Wind Fish let alone Hylia. The full one, sure, a single piece? Don't recall.
 
I don't entirely remember the argument myself, but I think that either the Historia or the Encyclopedia state that Hylias power is the Light Force and since Vaati absorbed pretty much all of it from Zelda then he's around her level, and then you'd get stuff like FSA Ganon being superior to Vaati and individual Triforce pieces scaling above him. I'd have to check up on that since I'm not too sure about the specifics so I'm not entirely certain on the 5-B characters scaling.
 
I could probably quickly check the Hyrule Historia or Encyclopedia.
 
"The Light Force"
"A source of infinite power from the heavens that holds the enormous power of the Force, which originally dwelled in all things."

"The Hero of Men"
"The Sword-Fighting Tournament and the Picori Blade. In the first major event to happen since the kingdom of Hyrule was established, the world was engulfed by evil beings and shrouded in darkness. It was then that a tiny Picori descended from the sky bringing a golden light and a sword. Using the sword, the Hero of Men sealed the evil beings away in the Bound Chest and brought peace to the world once again. The golden light was the Light Force."

Checked, I dont see anything about the Light Force being equal to Hylia or it being Hylia's power. The only thing of note I found was these.
 
Dust_Collector said:
The complete Triforce and those who use it scale to this for pretty obvious reasons
Click to expand...
Not in its profile. I really don't think this would-be upgrade thread would roll without those obvious reasons being linked.
Dust_Collector said:
Hylia, and by extension Demise, can be argued to scale to the Wind Fish as she's treated a more important and powerful deity than he is.
Click to expand...
If she was then it would be objective, I can only see some kind of stretch here that may as well be wrong.
Dust_Collector said:
Although the lack of concrete comparisons to him is the reason why we didn't just straight up scale her and added it as a likely
Click to expand...
You're not even showing reasons for that likely, am I supposed to believe all this like that?
Dust_Collector said:
and I know there's a few people who aren't entirely sold on the scaling but the level of importance Hylia holds in comparison to the Wind Fish is noticable.
Click to expand...
If you mean importance as in what the word means and not something about powerscaling then, that is pointless.
Dust_Collector said:
Due to some Light Force shenanigans it can also be argued that Vaati and individual Triforce pieces scale to Hylia and the Wind Fish (So basically everyone who is currently at least 5-B).
Click to expand...
You're not showing how.

@Chariot There you go, I really don't think that was needed.
 
There you go, I really don't think that was needed.
Click to expand...

I mean better that then just saying it's wrong without explaining why, even if it's obvious to some, not everyone knows that. You gotta consider people other then the person you're replying to as well if that makes any sense.

Though, if we do upgrade the Wind Fish, the complete Triforce would indeed scale, it's the most powerful thing in the verse bar the golden goddesses and it already has one or two feats that would support a rating like this.

Light Force shit I couldnt find anything concrete on so Vaati and those that scale is suspect.

Hylia though is the main issue, do we know for certain she's the strongest deity?
 
I only keep hearing people saying that the Triforce it's the most powerful thing in the verse over and over likely because of Cal, yet I have never seen evidence to back this up, in this case the thing is being claimed to scale to some guy from outside the universe, so where is the proof?
 
so where is the proof?
Click to expand...

Oh ****, i wouldnt even know where to begin, I guess I'll just start by copy pasting quotes from shit, obviously not all of them but here's a handful.

"In this world, the three goddesses left behind the omnipotent Triforce . . . "

Omnipotent (Obviously not by our standards, but in regards to the verse, it's treated as omnipotent comparatively).

"The Omnipotent Triforce. The Triforce grants wishes to those who touch it. Since the Triforce does not distinguish between good or evil, it allows both good and bad wishes. A strong heart, innate ability, and a balance of the three virtues (power, wisdom, and courage) are required to be granted a wish. If one who does not possess the balance of the three virtues touches the Triforce, its three pieces split apart. The finder is left with the piece that personifies what he or she values most. The other two pieces will appear on the hands of two individuals, chosen by the will of the goddess. One must reunite the three pieces in order to obtain true power."

Omnipotent again.

"After returning to his own era, Link found the legendary Triforce. He became worthy of its omnipotent power upon the completion of a number of trials, at which time he received the crest of the Triforce. He was granted his wish: the Statue of the Goddess returned to its former place in the Sealed Grounds, where it destroyed the Demon King Demise."

Omnipotent, again.

"The Triforce itself does not judge good and evil. Because of this, the following characteristics are sought from its users: a righteous heart and the mettle to wield the power of the gods."

The power of the Gods (There's also a quote that implies that the Triforce is quite literally their power, which would imply >>>> everything else, given they're the literal God Tiers).

"The Ganondorf of this timeline is able to wield magic due to his possession of the Triforce of Power. However, since Link was able to warn Princess Zelda of the future, Ganondorf did not enter the Sacred Realm or lay his hands on the completed Triforce. Link returning from the future bearing the Triforce of Courage made it so that Ganondorf was unable to consolidate the omnipotent power of the Triforce within himself."

Omnipotent, again.

"One dark, fateful day, the earth cracked wide and malevolent forces rushed forth from the fissure. They sought the power of the Triforce, the power of the goddesses that grants the wish of the one who touches it. The goddess Hylia, protector of the land and Triforce, took the surviving members of the race that would later become Hylians, and sent them skyward, putting them and the power of the Triforce out of evil’s reach. Then, she and the rest of the Surface¬ dwelling races fought back the monsters, sealing their leader, Demise, away. She knew that the seal would not hold, and only the Triforce had the power to combat him."

Power of the Golden Goddesses. Only the Triforce could defeat Demise, nothing else, not even her. Pretty clear cut that the Triforce > Hylia and Demise here.

"This was a mistake. The Triforce proved the very foundation of the realm, and without it, Lorule was fated to degrade and destroy itself."

Not relevant, just adding this because it adds a bit more context to the lorule shit.

"After a ferocious battle, Demise was sealed away. However, it became apparent that the seal would not last long against Demise’s great power. Hylia knew that her power alone was not enough to stop Demise and that her only hope was to unlock the power of the Triforce. Since a goddess cannot wield the power of the Triforce,"

Stated again. The Triforce > Hylia and Demise.

"This evil man ceaselessly uses
his vile, sorcerous powers in his
search for the Sacred Realm that
is connected to Hyrule...
For it is in that Sacred Realm
that one will find the divine
relic, the Triforce, which contains
the essence of the gods..."

Essence of the Gods or some shit.

"The power of the gods... The Triforce! He who touches it will have whatever he desires granted!"

Ditto.

"Created by the old gods, the Triforce possesses ultimate power and is said to grant the wishes of whoever possesses it!"

That part is actually bolded in game, that aint me highlighting it. Same with the below quotes with bolded parts.

"True to legend, the Triforce is the one thing with the power to vanquish Demise. It is thought to have been hidden within Skyloft by the goddess. Sadly, that is all we know of where it rests. All other clues to its whereabouts have been lost to the ages."

Only thing that can kill Demise I guess, again.

"The old gods created a supreme power that gave anyone who possessed it the ability to shape reality and fulfill any desire. They called it the Triforce. In his thirst to make the world his own, Demise readied a massive army of monsters for war. He sought to take the Triforce for himself by force. The goddess feared for her people. She used her power to send both them and the Triforce into the sky on a slice of earth she cut away from the land. This floating rock became the new home of our people. In time, it came to be known as Skyloft."

Supreme power among the verse, can shape reality and all that shit, basic mcguffin stuff.

"..She made this sacrifice, as you have likely guessed, so that the supreme power created by the old gods could one day be used. For while the supreme power of the Triforce was created by gods, all of its power can never be wielded by one."

Calls it the supreme power.

"You see, the mark of the Triforce on your hand is a symbol of the greatest power in this world."

This one right here is actually pretty noteworthy. The crest of the Triforce on Link's hand symbolizes the Triforce (obviously), which is the greatest power in the world allegedly, as if I need to reiterate what is pretty blatant from that quote.

This should be a start, maybe someone can work on a Triforce blog? idk, but here's some quotes to start with that jack the thing off as the best thing since sliced bread.

outside the universe,
Click to expand...

The Wind Fish isn't outside the universe though? He's just a deity that exists, explicitly, not far from Hyrule.
 
Nice job finding the archive link, I'll add it to the OP in a minute. Also I was just reminded of this, but don't we generally treat universe creation feats as Low 2-C?
 
Chariot190 said:
The Wind Fish isn't outside the universe though? He's just a deity that exists, explicitly, not far from Hyrule.
Click to expand...
This clearly changes things up, can you show this part?

It can be that "parallel universe" was mistranslated and the real text had "space" instead of universe, which is extremely common. We should see what the Jap. version of the site says, and if it doesn't have anything like this then this parallel universe take may be some unimportant take of the people who wrote that.
 
This clearly changes things up, can you show this part?
Click to expand...

What do you mean? The Wind Fish is just a sky spirit like Levias and LA takes place in the oceans off not far from Hyrule?
The games that take place in alternate world's with alternate deities are Majora's Mask, A Link between Worlds and Phantom Hourglass, Link's Awakening on the other hand just has Link getting pulled into the alternate universe of the dreams by the wind fish forcefully, though the wind fish's main body exists within Hyrule. I could probably find some scans of this too if I looked.

"parallel universe" was mistranslated
Click to expand...

It could be, though it's commonly called an entire world much like the dark world and light world so idk. If someone wants to find the original transcript that would help.
 
whoa, forgot about this for a second. Anyway I haven't had much luck finding the old version of the Japanese site during the 2 seconds I spent looking for it.
 
Bump

I actually made a genuine attempt at finding the old Japanese site and couldn't find it. Also can we get more input on whether or not this feat would actually be Low 2-C.
 
Obviously I agree with everything said above! Nintendo or Zelda in general has been consistent about their parallel universes/alternate realities etc.

And the game pretty much confirms that wind's fish dream is actually real.

Also about the light force and Hylia and Vaati scaling to it (since he definitely should), plus single pieces of triforce scaling (since Ganondorf with the ToP stomped a bunch of of light deities) here's this.



Its literally stated here that Ganondorf with the ToP powered up Zant. Gave him enough power to merge the Twilight realm (confirmed to be a parallel universe created by the goddesses) and fuse it with the light word (universal size) to create the Dark world out of it.

Zant was given enough power to try and create a 3-A realm via merging two other universal sized realms.

Triforce pieces were are always considered superior or equal to certain deities. ToC and ToW naturally scales to the ToP.

As for the light force and Vaati, Light Force does originate from Hylia as shown in SS when she imbued her Light powers into the master sword and transforming it into the true master sword (only weapon able to harm Demise a 3-A being)



Plus as shown in basically almost every Zelda games and minish cap. The light force is considered a bloodline power to the royal family or at least the females.

Link is the exception here since one his soul was literally tailored/imbued/modified to be compatible with the Lightforce (and triforce).

Everyone else kinda has the light force (source of all life) but it's nothing compared to Zelda and Link.


The 3 essance of the Golden Goddesses plus the light force (Hylia's power) is what again made the MS 3-A (possibly higher).

So Vaati using the full power of a 3-A being literally debunks the notion that his 4-B/4-A feat is an outlier (plus he should straight up be 3-A via light force).

The fact that he is cap at 5-B is a massive downplay.

Now with that out of the way. When are we going to make the Golden Goddesses 2-B via their "created millions of universes by accident."?

Alsooooooooo.

Breath of the wild Zelda ( age of calamity Zelda and Link) should scale to the Triforce since AoC confirms that at the end of BOTW its the Triforce that appears.


Bring back concept manip >:)
 
Eh, ok, that's fine.

I suggest to just keep the old scaling, with the Triforce and its users being 3-A, while Hylia, Demise, SS!Link and Ghirahim's final form get a "Likely 3-A"
 
I honestly feel that triforce should be low 2-C since it was literally created by the Golden Goddesses to control/balance/anchor the space/time of an entire universe example being Hyrule, Lorule and Sacred realm being heavily affected by it.


Also cadence of Hyrule (ambiguously Canon) and Hyrule warriors (Canon in Lore but not part of the main timeline)


It being destroyed literally destroys space and time.

Hyrule warriors also shows that it has the ability to manipulate several alternate universes/parallel universes at the same time.

So anyone who scales to the Triforce should also have "possibly/likely low 2-C via triforce".


Zelda from BOTW/AoC used the Triforce to send Terrako back in time creating a whole new timeline thx to the TF.


Plus last thread we all agreed that TF and people who scaled to it was Low 2-C we just needed to put in the justifications (which we have) it's just not properly updated.
 
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