Huge Legend of Zelda Upgrades

[Elizhaa]

I am neutral on Zant's rating for Tier 2. Though if Zant's statement about merging the worlds is seeing valid and assuming these worlds are universes, then the feat is 2-C according to the tiering system.
2-C | Low Multiverse level: Characters who can significantly affect[1], create and/or destroy small multiverses which can be comprised of several separate space-time continuums ranging anywhere from two to a thousand, or equivalents.

"Significantly affect" is used as an umbrella term for feats that don't involve direct creation or destruction but are comparable to them in power, such as warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question, sustaining its existence with one's own, merging the structure with another one, etc.
Whether is the feat is an outlier/inconsistent or not, is another matter.

What are Zant's other proposed tiers and its TLDRs?
What are Vaati's proposed tiers and its TLDR?

 

[Garchomp777]

Hold up. Who's getting a likely, possibly, and who's just getting a new tier without "likely"?

 

[Dust_Collector]

What are Zant's other proposed tiers and its TLDRs?
What are Vaati's proposed tiers and its TLDR?

Zants other proposed tiers is 2-C isn't excepted would be the same as Vaatis due to scaling to him.

Vaatis proposed tiers are 4-A (due to creating a realm with multiple stars) likely 3-A, possibly Low 2-C (Due to absorbing most of the Light Force which is Hylia's power, he scales to Hylia and by extension the Wind Fish who are 3-A to Low 2-C)

 

[Elizhaa]

If Zant's other tier is obtained from powerscaling to Vaati, this option works, for me.

Vaatis proposed tiers are 4-A (due to creating a realm with multiple stars) likely 3-A, possibly Low 2-C (Due to absorbing most of the Light Force which is Hylia's power, he scales to Hylia and by extension the Wind Fish who are 3-A to Low 2-C)

• This proposal works, for me.

 

[Antvasima]

Are the other staff members here fine with Elizhaa's solutions?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There might be discussions about merging feats, as plenty of other staff members view merging multiple universes into one being something similarly treated as our stabilization feats. The AP feat itself is fine, but it might not scale to physical stats depending on the context. But otherwise, Elizhaa's suggestion looks solid to me.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the evaluation.

 

[Dust_Collector]

But otherwise, Elizhaa's suggestion looks solid to me.

But it was my suggestion...

So we have a few staff that agree with the Vaati scaling, how much more input do we need?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we should probably wait a bit for more staff input, since this seems fairly controversial.

 

[AshenCrow777]

I am neutral on Zant's rating for Tier 2. Though if Zant's statement about merging the worlds is seeing valid and assuming these worlds are universes, then the feat is 2-C according to the tiering system.
2-C | Low Multiverse level: Characters who can significantly affect[1], create and/or destroy small multiverses which can be comprised of several separate space-time continuums ranging anywhere from two to a thousand, or equivalents.

"Significantly affect" is used as an umbrella term for feats that don't involve direct creation or destruction but are comparable to them in power, such as warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question, sustaining its existence with one's own, merging the structure with another one, etc.
Whether is the feat is an outlier/inconsistent or not, is another matter.

Then can I point out that Cia was able to merge all alternate realities (universes+timelines) into one during the event of Hyrule warriors.



Triforce users alone could qualify for 2-C if that helps? plus its consistent and happens in an instant.

 

[AshenCrow777]

I'm sorry to ask, but, how do they?

Zelda is confirmed to have used the Triforce (the full triforce) in lore+gameplay and it confirms that at the end of BOTW its the Triforce that we see.

As for Link he's the only one that is truly able to keep up with full TF Zelda, thanks to his ridiculous strength in his prime and the master sword that is fully powered.

Link is consistently shown to be so far beyond everyone else even when outnumbered and handicapped.

Only people that were a real challenge to him was full TF Zelda and Ganondorf from AoC (pre-one hundred year battle with Zelda).

Link might not obviously physically scale to the Full Triforce but there's no doubt he is far stronger than all the other characters.

 

[Antvasima]

If somebody summarises what we currently need to decide here in a single post, I can send notifications to some knowledgeable staff members so they can evaluate it.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Here's what's being proposed:

Vaati will be "At least 4-A, likely 3-A, possibly Low 2-C" (4-A for creating a dimension containing countless stars, 3-A, possibly Low 2-C due to absorbing most of the Light Force which makes him comparable to Hylia [Her power being the Light Force] and by extension the Wind Fish who is 3-A/Low 2-C)

Every character who is currently 5-B will receive the same tiers as Vaati due to scaling to him (As an example Ganondorf with the Triforce of Power is superior to the Ganon in Four Swords Adventures, who is already stronger than Vaati), and they may possibly be 2-C depending on if Zants feat of merging the Light World and Twilight Realm is considered legit.

Demise will have his High 4-C low end changed to 4-A since he's equal to Hylia and therefore equal or slightly superior to Vaati.

The strongest characters in Breath of the Wild (So people like full power Link, Zelda, Calamity Ganon) may scale to the complete Triforce since Zelda appears to possess it in Breath of the Wild and Age of Calamity.

Ashen just brought up a potential 2-C feat for the complete Triforce from Hyrule Warriors due to it merging several timelines together.

Don't think I missed anything.

 

[Antvasima]

Here's what's being proposed:

Vaati will be "At least 4-A, likely 3-A, possibly Low 2-C" (4-A for creating a dimension containing countless stars, 3-A, possibly Low 2-C due to absorbing most of the Light Force which makes him comparable to Hylia [Her power being the Light Force] and by extension the Wind Fish who is 3-A/Low 2-C)

Every character who is currently 5-B will receive the same tiers as Vaati due to scaling to him (As an example Ganondorf with the Triforce of Power is superior to the Ganon in Four Swords Adventures, who is already stronger than Vaati), and they may possibly be 2-C depending on if Zants feat of merging the Light World and Twilight Realm is considered legit.

Demise will have his High 4-C low end changed to 4-A since he's equal to Hylia and therefore equal or slightly superior to Vaati.

The strongest characters in Breath of the Wild (So people like full power Link, Zelda, Calamity Ganon) may scale to the complete Triforce since Zelda appears to possess it in Breath of the Wild and Age of Calamity.

Ashen just brought up a potential 2-C feat for the complete Triforce from Hyrule Warriors due to it merging several timelines together.

Don't think I missed anything.

@Starter_Pack @Theglassman12 @The_real_cal_howard @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus

What do you think about this?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think those look good.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

The full triforce didn't merge timelines in Hyrule Warriors, it just connected them via portals. 2-C, but not AP.

 

[AshenCrow777]

The full triforce didn't merge timelines in Hyrule Warriors, it just connected them via portals. 2-C, but not AP.

It literally did connect them on the video you quite literally see all the dimensions and different timelines connected to each other like mismatched puzzles

 

[AshenCrow777]

And only skyloft came down from a portal all the other were quite literally changed in real time when the cast was in the bubble you can see reality getting overwritten and glitching out.


And it kinda does count has AP because it was done via the Full Triforce energy blast hence the reason why Lana summoned the bubble shield.

You can legit pause at 1:52 where do you see portals?

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

"she used its incredible power to bend time and space and open doorways through the ages. Portals to three eras appeared..."

 

[AshenCrow777]

"she used it's incredible power to bend time and space and open doorways"

Its literally said that it was done via the incredible power of the Triforce.

Cia powered by the Triforce was able to properly use the gates of souls.

With the full Triforce in her possession (and being powered by it), Cia uses the Gate of Souls by Ganondorf's urging to rip time and space as distant eras are merged into present Hyrule.

Cia already had the gate of souls since the start of the invasion but she couldn't do anything on such a large scale, until she got the full triforce. because again that's what powered her (and the effects of the gate of souls)

From 00:00 to 01:52 you literally see the twilight realm, ocarina death mountain, overwriting reality without going through portals but via the energy blast from Cia powered by the Triforce.

The portals that the heroes use are just specific bubbles in time where Ganondorfs fragments are in a precise moment.

 

[AshenCrow777]

Plus in Hyrule warriors legend (Canon to Hyrule warriors) in the story Wind walker the search for Cia.

Here's the narrative.


"Lana returned to the Valley of the Seers to search for Cia, who had mysteriously vanished following her defeat. However while Lana was busy searching via her crystal ball, an mysterious dark figure attacked her and stole the Triforce of Power. The mysterious figure used the Triforce of Power to warp time and space, causing the Era of the Great Sea to appear in Hyrule."

Phantom Ganon like his master with the Triforce of Power (in twilight princess when he gave power to Zant) was able to warp space and time and caused the dimension of the Great Sea to legit manifest in Hyrule with no gate of souls.

That's 2 time the ToP has done that there's no reason for the TF to not be able to do that.


And again Cia already had the gate of souls since the beginning but only when she got the TF was she able to do that insane feat by summoning several timelines.

 

[Antvasima]

Are we absolutely certain that several universes were merged together? It seems far more practical to simply transport the required characters to a common area.

 

[AshenCrow777]

Are we absolutely certain that several universes were merged together? It seems far more practical to simply transport the required characters to a common area.

Yes we are absolutely certain it is. It's also confirmed in game and said several times that

"With the full Triforce in her possession , Cia uses the Gate of Souls by Ganondorf's urging to rip time and space as distant eras are merged into present Hyrule."

In Hyrule warriors legends:Wind waker search for Cia.

"a mysterious dark figure attacked her and stole the Triforce of Power. The mysterious figure used the Triforce of Power to warp time and space, causing the Era of the Great Sea to appear in Hyrule."

Plus this is consistent with the scan shown earlier in the thread that Zant powered by a single piece of triforce was gonna merge 2 universes together.

So DDM, Dust, Starbrand, Trumpty,Me, elizhaa (they said as long as it's consistent than they agree) all agree on the upgrade. Cal also agrees with everything but was dubious about the Zant feat.

Aside from that no one actually disapprove these upgrades (Aside from Zephyr I guess)

And some others haven't said anything recently.

But I posted a story narrative that says that phantom Ganon, was able to merge the world of the ocean king,(a parallel universe to the grand sea) and merge it to present Hyrule.


TLDR all feats posted are legit and respect the criterias required to be 2-C
We have literally 4 (or even more) consistent instances where it's explicitly stated that the triforce of power/Triforce/gate of souls merged different timelines/universes into 1.

 

[Theglassman12]

Can you show the actual video clips of the statements of the merging happening?

 

[AshenCrow777]

Can you show the actual video clips of the statements of the merging happening?

Its shown above in the first Hyrule warriors video I posted here.

Zant merging twilight realm with light world is also already posted as a scan in this thread.

You are welcome to watch the full video or at least the boss fight but let's just cut to the chase.


They defeat phantom Ganon amped by a single piece of triforce that was able to manifest the great seas.

At 34:48 they gather the Triforce to remove the great sea from their reality timeline. You can literally see its here physically manifested within their realm and getting removed casually by the Triforce they don't even need a gate of souls.

It dosent even disappear via a portal.

Triforce of Power is already proof of that you don't need the gates of souls its just that you can do it on a much larger scale with the full triforce.

Plus if anyone played the games twilight realm, death mountain, sky loft can all be reached by foot you don't need portals.

Ex:Here's more proof about it


Wind temple and earth temple are now connected to each other (the purple line signifies merging points between the different realities) which isn't the case at all if anyone played wind waker.

But since all these place have been manifested in the same plane of existence they are all forcefully connected/attached/merged to each other.

So again all of this has already been posted before aside from that last HWDE video.

 

[AshenCrow777]

Here's what's being proposed:

Vaati will be "At least 4-A, likely 3-A, possibly Low 2-C" (4-A for creating a dimension containing countless stars, 3-A, possibly Low 2-C due to absorbing most of the Light Force which makes him comparable to Hylia [Her power being the Light Force] and by extension the Wind Fish who is 3-A/Low 2-C)

Every character who is currently 5-B will receive the same tiers as Vaati due to scaling to him (As an example Ganondorf with the Triforce of Power is superior to the Ganon in Four Swords Adventures, who is already stronger than Vaati), and they may possibly be 2-C depending on if Zants feat of merging the Light World and Twilight Realm is considered legit.

Demise will have his High 4-C low end changed to 4-A since he's equal to Hylia and therefore equal or slightly superior to Vaati.

The strongest characters in Breath of the Wild (So people like full power Link, Zelda, Calamity Ganon) may scale to the complete Triforce since Zelda appears to possess it in Breath of the Wild and Age of Calamity.

Ashen just brought up a potential 2-C feat for the complete Triforce from Hyrule Warriors due to it merging several timelines together.

Don't think I missed anything.

Anyway a big majority of us agrees with this proposal.

Unless anyone have anything new to bring up?

All scans are already here, statements, videos, it follows the criteria for 2-C,its consistent and it's a feat that was done multiple times (4 possibly more) and unlike Zant the other times the merging universes occurred (in HW case universes+timeline ) they happened instantly.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

How do you know the entire universe was merged instead of only the regions, which would make much more sense given the very, VERY blatant statement that she connected the universes thorugh portals

 

[AshenCrow777]

How do you know the entire universe was merged instead of only the regions, which would make much more sense given the very, VERY blatant statement that she connected the universes thorugh portals

The portals where just here to summon monsters and to get fragments of Ganon that were in specific points of times.

Because last time I checked the twilight realm does not exist on the same plane of existence as the light world.

Plus let's not forget the way that the twilight realm function. It wouldn't even work if it was just a part of the land.

Like literally the sky wouldn't be orange at all if it was just land.

Plus it's heavily stated several time that space and time was bent out of shape to manifest these different timelines into the HW current Hyrule.

Not only that the Triforce of Power have a history of merging universes together.

(plus let's not forget Yuga with 2 triforce wanted to destroy the light world and the world of Lorule)



And you don't need portals to cross between these different "regions" you can get their by foot.

In "The search of Cia" they destroy all the gates of souls and the world is still not back to normal they needed the power of the Full Triforce to do that.

Again only skyloft came from a big portal.

But all the others in the same cutscene were manifested via an energy blast from Cia powered by the TF and using the gate of souls.


the whole point of the twilight realm is that it's always twilight.

You can literally see in the cut scene. the sunny, morning sky being overwritten and now in perpetual twilight.

Again they say she summoned different "ERAS" and merged them into current Hyrule.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

That... doesn't really address my points. at all.

 

[AshenCrow777]

the very, VERY blatant statement that she connected the universes thorugh portals

The portals are irrelevant as shown in the search for Cia Video they destroyed all the portals of the Great Sea and yet the great sea was still in their reality.

Despite you being adamant the only reason why they are here it's because they are connected to the gate of souls.

And again entire universes were summoned, they don't say pieces of lands or regions, they literally say universes from that Era was manifested.

The gates are just doors to help Cia summon monsters of a specific era and to retrieve fragments of Ganondorf's soul.

Even after destroying these portals the connection to these realms are not severed because those dimensions are already merged with present Hyrule.

 

[Antvasima]

How do you know the entire universe was merged instead of only the regions, which would make much more sense given the very, VERY blatant statement that she connected the universes thorugh portals

These are my exact thoughts as well.

 

[AshenCrow777]

They are considered entirely different worlds, separate dimensions with their own space and time despite being merged with current Hyrule.

And the purple lines we see where every areas are attached to each other are rifts.

So yes Zephyr entire universes were merged together in some kind of weird puzzle.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Everything shown as well as occam's razor contradicts the idea that the entire universes were merged together. I genuinely implore you to take the L on this one

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, merging large areas of planets in different universes seems more likely than merging the universes in their entireties.

 

[Theglassman12]

Why are you using Yuga wanting to destroy hyrule and lorule when Lorule's not even stated to be a parallel world? That doesn't exactly help your case for 2-C given Lorule's not labelled as a parallel world.

 

[AshenCrow777]

Everything shown as well as occam's razor contradicts the idea that the entire universes were merged together. I genuinely implore you to take the L on this one

First of all don't throw around occam's razor this wiki love to do that wayyyy too much.


It literally contradicts nothing when every time they talk about the place you go on to go beyond the rifts you know purple lines that you see around.

They are called Eras, World, Dimensions.

I do not see how occam razor applies even if I in the lack of better term "dumbed it down" they still consider every "regions" you travel too as dimensions merged into current Hyrule

But sure 2 can play that game.



Everything I've shown as well as
Hickam's Dictum does not contradicts the fact that universes were merged together. I genuinely implore you to keep your L you seem to need it.

 

[AshenCrow777]

Why are you using Yuga wanting to destroy hyrule and lorule when Lorule's not even stated to be a parallel world? That doesn't exactly help your case for 2-C given Lorule's not labelled as a parallel world.

Yuga wanted to destroy both light world and the world of Lorule and what are you talking about lorule is quite literally stated to be a parallel to the dimension of Hyrule!?!

And I brought that point for consistency because it's not the first time the Triforce or in that case a triforce piece could affect more than one parallel universe.

I am seriously starting to doubt you

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

First of all don't throw around occam's razor this wiki love to do that wayyyy too much.

It's because this wiki is one that at least attempts to rely on common sense. Not doing so results in vastly over-inflated ratings. And believe me, I'm one of the biggest supporters of Zelda on this site, my dude, and I agree with all the other upgrades in this thread. I'm still not gonna let an incorrect upgrade go through if I can allow it.

It literally contradicts nothing when every time they talk about the place you go on to go beyond the rifts you know purple lines that you see around.

They are called Eras, World, Dimensions.

They are also stated to be connected through portals. Perhaps most notably, it's more sensible and contradicts nothing to assume that only the regions were brought there.

I do not see how occam razor applies even if I in the lack of better term "dumbed it down" they still consider every "regions" you travel too as dimensions merged into current Hyrule

Show a scan of that. This ironically points more towards only parts of the world being brought to HW!Hyrule instead of the entire universes.

Everything I've shown as well as
Hickam's Dictum does not contradicts the fact that universes were merged together. I genuinely implore you to keep your L you seem to need it.

"My interpretation is correct because it can be" is not a good counterargument. Fiction does not function like the medical field, so we have to do our best to use fair and well-presented arguments and ratings. This is not that.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Why are you using Yuga wanting to destroy hyrule and lorule when Lorule's not even stated to be a parallel world? That doesn't exactly help your case for 2-C given Lorule's not labelled as a parallel world.

Why are we assuming Yuga wanted to destroy both space-times instead of just conquering or destroying both kingdoms?

 

[Antvasima]

I still agree with Zephyros.