How should we handle pages that discuss extremely sensitive topics?

[Antvasima]

Hello.

I apologise if this is a controversial issue, but it was publicly revealed in Fandom's ongoing Community Connect meeting that they plan to introduce some guidelines regarding the discussion of very sensitive topics such as suicide, and given my own past experiences with suicidal depression and mental illness, my ongoing dedication to helping out members of this community who have approached me regarding extreme levels of depression, and I have concerns regarding society as a whole in this regard, I think that this is a good idea.

Do we have any pages that contain too extremely disturbing text segments that go into too glorifying emotional gory detail, and may need to be cleaned up, or worse, links to images or videos displaying fictional rape scenes (such as in Berserk) or graphic real world violence? If so, I think that these depictions and links should preferably be removed. We do not know if emotionally unbalanced people or young children visit our wiki, and even warning labels at the top of the pages will likely not deter a large amount of them.


NOTE:

Staff only, and please try to keep this discussion polite and respectful without veering into any controversial or hostile territory.

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Andytrenom @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Damage3245

Your input would be appreciated here.

Again, this is a potentially explosive issue, but we need to deal with it at some point, and possibly make some investigations in this regard, so I would greatly appreciate if we try to keep our discussion friendly, respectful, and polite despite this.

 

[SamanPatou]

Afaik no pages link to real-world gory scene (aside from live action movies and such), nor does it encourage suicide etc.., but doesn't fictional material fall under fair use or something? As long as we don't host any illegal stuff, I don't see what would the problem be.
I get that some people may be disturbed by that, but at the same time I don't think it's correct to clip the wings to the wiki just because of that, if what we do is within the limits of legality and all, also because drawing the line is going to be extremely uncontroversial.

Maybe we could enhance the highlight on warnings at the top of sensible pages?

 

[Damage3245]

I think we already do a fair job with the content on our wiki. I'm not aware of any problematic pages.

 

[Armorchompy]

I think warnings are fine, if people continue after those it's ultimately on them. Most we could do is have a more elaborate and official set of content warnings, but we definitely shouldn't remove content.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I don't know any pages that would need to be cleaned up by the given criteria.

Generally speaking, we have to balance keeping things PG with out interest of proper representation. If something is really necessary to describe a character it should probably stay. We can keep the wording neutral and, if necessary, put specific references instead of scans, though.

 

[Antvasima]

I think we already do a fair job with the content on our wiki. I'm not aware of any problematic pages.

I am mostly concerned about if pages such as Berserk link to any unnecessarily gruesome rape scenes, if real world profile pages link to genuine acts of extreme violence, or if extremely nihilistic ultraviolent verses go into too much emotion-triggering detail in their descriptions, rather than maintaining a neutral tone, but as most of you probably know, if am a very worried and rather anxious sort in general, especially when I haven't slept nearly enough, as is currently the case.

 

[Antvasima]

I think warnings are fine, if people continue after those it's ultimately on them. Most we could do is have a more elaborate and official set of content warnings, but we definitely shouldn't remove content.

I am just referring to rewording extremely disturbing text descriptions and removing images to images depicting rape or graphic ultraviolence, but more widespread content warnings at the top of pages would also be useful, yes.

 

[Antvasima]

I don't know any pages that would need to be cleaned up by the given criteria.

Generally speaking, we have to balance keeping things PG with out interest of proper representation. If something is really necessary to describe a character it should probably stay. We can keep the wording neutral and, if necessary, put specific references instead of scans, though.

Well, I am also uncertain regarding the existence of such pages, but investigations in this regard and maybe some kind of official guideline rule, would probably be very useful.

 

[SamanPatou]

I absolutely don't want the wiki to cross the line on the other side too much, because we risk to fall into censorship of things that seem troublesome only to us.
Some fictional products, since the dawn of mankind, represent violence, which, unfortunately, exists in our cruel world, but there's no reason to forbid such material as long as the law accepts it.
And I don't want to delve into any argument about what's to be considered nihilistic or amoral, that's extremely subjective, can be offensive to some who like specific products and shouldn't have a weight on this matter.

We can try to limit something if it isn't absolutely necessary to the correct representation of a character's capabilities and such? Sure, but even then, we aren't doing anything illegal, and nobody holds the ultimate truth in regards to where the limit has to be set, because everyone's got their own sensibility, there's no clear line.
But again, our wiki doesn't host anything illegal material, which should be the main and only concern.

Any protective measure shouldn't go beyond clear warnings.

 

[Antvasima]

I absolutely don't want the wiki to cross the line on the other side too much, because we risk to fall into censorship of things that seem troublesome only to us.
Some fictional products, since the dawn of mankind, represent violence, which, unfortunately, exists in our cruel world, but there's no reason to forbid such material as long as the law accepts it.
And I don't want to delve into any argument about what's to be considered nihilistic or amoral, that's extremely subjective, can be offensive to some who like specific products and shouldn't have a weight on this matter.

We can try to limit something if it isn't absolutely necessary to the correct representation of a character's capabilities and such? Sure, but even then, we aren't doing anything illegal, and nobody holds the ultimate truth in regards to where the limit has to be set, because everyone's got their own sensibility, there's no clear line.
But again, our wiki doesn't host anything illegal material, which should be the main and only concern.

Any protective measure shouldn't go beyond clear warnings.

Well, I just don't think that an all-ages wiki that may be viewed by emotionally unstable children should contain extremely graphic and disturbing descriptions or links to visually displayed rape or realistic gore, that may act as emotional triggers. Also, any in-depth depictions of fictional characters committing suicide should obviously be avoided.

 

[Damage3245]

Some of those things we don't feature on the wiki in the first place.

 

[Antvasima]

Some of those things we don't feature on the wiki in the first place.

I hope so. I just want to make certain.

 

[SamanPatou]

Emotional unstable children aren't fixed units of measure, some could suffer emotional triggers even from fairly mild level of violence, if they touch something related to their personal history, traumas etc.., but we can't account for everything, and at the same time we don't want to make it look like we care only about Emotional unstable children whose tolerance level goes up to a line arbitrarily decided by us, as it seems that we disregard anyone more "sensible".

Again, we can try to limit description and scans within reason, but we can't let this limit us when something is needed to the well-being of a profile.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I apologise if I am being overly neurotic here. As I mentioned, I only received 4-5 restless hours of sleep last night.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I mean we feature verses with dark themes but I don't think we have anything on site that is distasteful.

Even if the source material has some unsavory parts, our job isn't to index that, it's to index the punchy punchy and shooty shooty bits. Hell, if we still haven't gotten any warning for Doctor Manhattan's penis in full view of scans, we don't have much to worry about.

 

[Antvasima]

Emotional unstable children aren't fixed units of measure, some could suffer emotional triggers even from fairly mild level of violence, if they touch something related to their personal history, traumas etc.., but we can't account for everything, and at the same time we don't want to make it look like we care only about Emotional unstable children whose tolerance level goes up to a line arbitrarily decided by us, as it seems we disregard anyone more "sensible".

Again, we can try to limit description and scans within reason, but we can't let this limit us when something is needed to the well-being of a profile.

What are your views about linking to a rape scene in the Berserk manga, for example? Would that really be necessary?

Still, you do have a good point regarding that certain feats will likely contain very graphic content, so it cannot be avoided, but such pages should preferably contain warning labels at the top at least. Maybe we can include a rule about that?

 

[Antvasima]

I mean we feature verses with dark themes but I don't think we have anything on site that is distasteful.

Even if the source material has some unsavory parts, our job isn't to index that, it's to index the punchy punchy and shooty shooty bits. Hell, if we still haven't gotten any warning for Doctor Manhattan's penis in full view of scans, we don't have much to worry about.

Okay. Thank you for the feedback.

 

[Damage3245]

What are your views about linking to a rape scene in the Berserk manga, for example? Would that really be necessary?

Still, you do have a good point regarding that certain feats will likely contain very graphic content, so it cannot be avoided, but such pages should preferably contain warning labels at the top at least. Maybe we can include a rule about that?

I can't imagine that linking to that from Berserk would be necessary on any of our profiles.

 

[SamanPatou]

What are your views about linking to a rape scene in the Berserk manga, for example? Would that really be necessary?

Do we really link that rape scene, for starters?
Imho, that would be fine to me, also because it's not THAT explicit, although I understand it's rather crude. At the same time I don't see the point in showcasing or even linking it, but we should at the very least be free to make mention of it, and use references instead of actual scans.
If, for some god knows what reason, some similar scene should be extremely important to the indexing of a character's characteristic, I'd be in for letting it being linked or at the very least find a workable compromise depending on how offensive it is.

Still, you do have a good point regarding that certain feats will likely contain very graphic content, so it cannot be avoided, but such pages should preferably contain warning labels at least.

A child who's suffered from parental abuse could be triggered by a man punching a woman, vice versa, or an adult beating a child etc..
Really, our world isn't a good place, and people get traumas from every kind of thing (mind you, I'm not downplaying them, not at all, just saying that human beings are extremely creative when it comes to abusing of each other), and to different degrees, we can't act like as if gore was the only thing that disturbs people.
Without exposing myself too much, I'm unfazed by extreme gore, but at the same time other things that wouldn't even be considered brutal upset me for personal reasons.
As I said, it would be both impossible and unfair to account for everyone's sensibility, and so we should generally stick to remain within the boundaries of the law and do our best using common sense and warnings as out main tool.

 

[Antvasima]

I can't imagine that linking to that from Berserk would be necessary on any of our profiles.

No, me neither. I just want us to keep an eye out for removing those sorts of links along with rewording too disturbing text segments, and preferably add more warning labels.

 

[Bobsican]

What are your views about linking to a rape scene in the Berserk manga, for example? Would that really be necessary?

Still, you do have a good point regarding that certain feats will likely contain very graphic content, so it cannot be avoided, but such pages should preferably contain warning labels at the top at least. Maybe we can include a rule about that?

I recall I did do a suggestion a few months ago on adding templates to clarify age ratings on pages to ensure minors aren't seeing inappropiate content without warning and so on, and it was met with good response, even if kept for a later date out of the site being busy with other revisions at the time. So perhaps now it's a good time to consider going farther with the idea.

 

[Antvasima]

Do we really link that rape scene, for starters?
Imho, that would be fine to me, also because it's not THAT explicit, although I understand it's rather crude. At the same time I don't see the point in showcasing or even linking it, but we should at the very least be free to make mention of it, and use references instead of actual scans.
If, for some god knows what reason, some similar scene should be extremely important to the indexing of a character's characteristic, I'd be in for letting it being linked or at the very least find a workable compromise depending on how offensive it is.

Well, I obviously have no problem with simply mentioning that a rape took place during the story.

A child who's suffered from parental abuse could be triggered by a man punching a woman, vice versa, or an adult beating a child etc..
Really, our world isn't a good place, and people receive traumas from every kind of thing, and to different degrees, we can't act like as if gore was the only thing that disturbs people.
Without exposing myself too much, I'm unfazed by extreme gore, but at the same time other things that wouldn't even be considered brutal upset me for personal reasons.
As I said, it would be both impossible and unfair to account for everyone's sensibility, and so we should generally stick to remain within the boundaries of the law and do our best using common sense and warnings as out main tool.

I suppose that we may have to wait for Fandom's new rules to be put in place and adapt accordingly then.

Still, a new rule regarding placing warning labels at the top of pages with potentially very disturbing content might be a good idea.

 

[Antvasima]

I recall I did do a suggestion a wfew months ago on adding templates to clarify age ratings on pages to ensure minors aren't seeing inappropiate content without warning and so on, and it was met with good response, even if kept for a later date out of the site being busy with other revisions at the time. So perhaps now it's a good time to consider going father with the idea.

I personally wouldn't mind at all. It would likely save a lot of time when applying content warnings.

 

[Elizhaa]

I think this page made it clear that very suggestive scenes that are not under Fandom guidelines are not allowed. This disclaimer page already mentioned some content may be inappropriate for younger readers.
From what I know, there aren't pages that need to be fixed as the pages are clean up of such details or keep largely PG as others said so the current rules seem enough; If changes are to be made, I think waiting for Fandom clarifications like SamanPatou suggested would be ideal before making new rules.

 

[Antvasima]

I think this page made it clear that very suggestive scenes that are not under Fandom guidelines are not allowed. This disclaimer page already mentioned some content may be inappropriate for younger readers.
From what I know, there aren't pages that need to be fixed as the pages are clean up of such details or keep largely PG as others said so the current rules seem enough; If changes are to be made, I think waiting for Fandom clarifications like SamanPatou suggested would be ideal before making new rules.

Okay. Thank you for the information. I think that I was the one who suggested waiting for further clarifications from Fandom though.

What do you think about Bobsican's suggestion above?

 

[Andytrenom]

Thunder McQueen is the only page I remember that features this topic

 

[Antvasima]

Thunder McQueen is the only page I remember that features this topic

Okay. Does it veer into any too extreme depictions?

 

[Elizhaa]

What do you think about Bobsican's suggestion above?

If I recall, I remember similar suggestions in the past CRTs by we ultimately went with the update that I mentioned above on the disclaimer page and later create the Acceptable content rating scale age. I am more or less neutral on the matter but I remembered a large number of edits needed was a big negative that was mentioned and why it is not currently applied.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I was just thinking that we could simply create a standardised {{Warning}} template, and then write a rule with information about how to add it, not that we have to apply all of it at once.

 

[Elizhaa]

Well, I was just thinking that we could simply create a standardised {{Warning}} template, and then write a rule with information about how to add it, not that we have to apply all of it at once.

I would not be against the case.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the feedback.

What do the rest of you think?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Afaik we already have a few profiles that note the profile covering material considered NSFW like extreme violence or whatever. Just make it standardized or something.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, there are automatised templates that can be created for such purposes.

Perhaps @Damage3245 and @Bobsican would be willing to design a {{Warning}} template for the top sections of wiki pages with disturbing content?

 

[Antvasima]

You can obviously ask our image helpers to help you out as well if you wish.

 

[Damage3245]

I could, but not for a few days.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, of course. There is no hurry. What you are currently doing is obviously more important.

 

[Bobsican]

Yes, there are automatised templates that can be created for such purposes.

Perhaps @Damage3245 and @Bobsican would be willing to design a {{Warning}} template for the top sections of wiki pages with disturbing content?

This is a good start, I took it from the template the Disney Wiki uses for similar purposes.
We could reword it to be more original or better for our purposes, however, so ideas are welcome.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I do not think we have any pages that go overboard, I have always made it genuine to try to make summaries sound professional and try avoid sounding overly enthusiastic. And I usually fix text to meet then whenever I find a paragraph that appears to be in that nature. But I do not know of anything that makes text sound very descriptive when it comes to gross out situations.

 

[Chariot190]

videos displaying fictional rape scenes (such as in Berserk)

Not staff but as an advocate of Berserk and in a verse where some of that shit has to be linked for power documentation purposes (I mean, Femto doing the deed on Casca actually results in a ability addition, it's why he has corruption for example, he corrupted her unborn child into a demon, we have to touch on that for indexing purposes).

As others have said, we could just do a warning at the top of the page saying this page covers subject matter that might not be suitable for everyone (Probably specify the general themes touched upon, whether that be extreme violence, sexual imagery, or what not) when we link the scans (This would be applicable for most profiles and verses), such as in imgur, they have an 18+ option, we can choose to have the scans/imgur album hidden for those not 18+, with it asking for age confirmation before showing any scans, that way the profile has a warning and when it comes to the scans featuring unsavory material, there's an extra layer of protection off site as well.

Given I plan on doing some Berserk CRT's in due time, I can go through the effort of making all links that feature the nsfw shit to be marked as 18+, or if need be, censor some of the nsfw bits myself if we really gotta go that far (can't do anything about the gore though, that's asking way to much and may as well be impossible).

Okay. Does it veer into any too extreme depictions?

Depends, he definitely tries but all his suicide attempts failed and never got so far to be exceptionally graphic so take that as you will.