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How is 18 tier 4 now?

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Freedomstar

Freedomstar

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With her feats in DBS she's definitely far stronger than high 4-C. I mean she was tanking attack that was hurting SSG Goku and SSJ Vegeta. She also lifting up an opponent that was bearing Goku down. Base Goku himself should be way higher than high 4-C and 18 shown to be far stronger.
 
I mean, look. Universe level 18 is a massive outlier in terms of scaling and also it has never been implied by statements that 18 is comparable to the main U7 3-As.

In all honesty, I think a lot of characters in DBS that were, at least at one point, upgraded to 3-A never should have been.

Piccolo, 18, Trio de Dangers, Frost, etc...come to mind first but there are more especially in the ToP

They really shouldve had "At least High 4-C, likely higher" and/or "At least 4-B, likely higher" keys. I get that 3-As in DBS are way way way above baseline but most of them hadn't even defeated or stalemated a 3-A and Frost did so with poison. It's just wild to me and I'm not even a DB downplayer: I'm the guy who still wants Anilaza upgraded, Kai made canon/Toeiverse pages made, the use of SSJ multipliers to be considered legitimate, the use of guidebooks to be made legitimate, etc... these would trigger significant DB upgrades

I agree that Android 18 is almost definitely well above Large Star level+ but she doesn't have consistent 3-A feats. Maybe she's Solar System level+, maybe Galaxy level+, we don't have the feats, statements, or scaling to place her in any specific tier above High 4-C. In my head canon, she isn't High 4-C either but that can't dictate the information on the profiles
 
I just don't like that 18 is singled out. If she's High 4-C then I think so many others should be downgraded to that level, many of which probably should have never been placed or upgraded to 3-A.

The most blatant contradiction is Basil, who has two keys, implying that he had a massive upgrade between the time he fought Buu, and the ToP. It was never implied that he trained at all (not to mention he would barely have any time), and is only considered 3-A because he fought Goku and Vegeta and assisted in a beam struggle. That, for some reason, isn't an outlier.

Meanwhile 18 also has no mention of training (but much larger gaps in time in her favor), scales to someone who was involved in a beam struggle against two 3-As (Cocotte against Kale and Caulifla), and singlehandedly defeated a 3-A. If you want to argue that this is an outlier, then fine. But that goes for so many others as well.
 
Never forget that we denied Buu's feat of fighting Base Goku, despite explicitly doing so after training and getting stronger, just cause we think it was too silly.
 
And why does she needs to statements? How is this even fair? This is DBS we're talking about.

1. Do you honestly think is 17 god level just by protecting that island from fodder poachers for 10 years? Where is the logic in that? High 4-C to 3-A the gap is huge. DBS is fiction. it's not like Roshi destroying the moon, but losing to a city level character. 18 was holding back in the tournment at first, but was showing her true power after krillin got eliminated. If we're gonna use 17 training statements, we should take in account 18 actually fought in tournaments against people who would one shot the poachers. If that is the case, we need to also take into account that 18 kicked a suppressed SSG goku blast.

2. You do know being universal have different gaps in dbs right? SSJ Goku is universal for using god ki, but that does not mean he is stronger than universal 17 or Frieza. SSJ would get one shotted by

3. if 18 is an outlier, 17 should be one too. He is a walking plot for the DBS series. There is not way he should even tickle Jiren. It was never implied that his power is on par with Vegeta, Frieza and Goku or even close. He needed help with base toppo with Gohan and Frieza. All I've seen people say is that he is using tactics.

4. She still took attacks from Anilaza that SSG Goku, SSJ Vegeta, Gohan, 17, and Frieza also took. Not to mention she took a black hole and didn't die. Her blast was doing comparable damage to a robot with 17. She was whooping Ribrianne butt, and even her most powerful form. 18 easily threw Cocotte barrier out the ring even when Cabba and Caulifla blast could not even move it. She was about to beat Frost up for eliminating Krillin, but he was obviously to scared to fight her. Lifted an enemy who's weight was increasing by the second and Goku could not even breakout. I'm still wondering how this is an outlier, when she was doing this one afer the other.
 
1. Yes, 17 is God-level via Park Ranging, deal with it already. He has numerous feats that are on 3-A, and it is hammered again and again that he can stand up to Super Saiyan Blue level enemies because of it.

2. What is your actual point?

3. No. 17 has training and was explicitly shown to have gotten stronger because of it. You may think it is silly, or unusual, but he was exerting himself physically during all that time. 18 lived as a housewife and did nothing.

4. Being grazed by part of a guy's attack doesn't count. Black Hole isn't a feat. No it isn't, 17 is consistently far above her. Ribrianne is an outlier.
 
It is implied 18 was amped against Ribrianne, so even if it wasn't an outlier, it wouldn't scale to her.
 
Also, 18 didn't break Cocotte's barrier or even do anything to it at all. She literally just picked it up and threw it off the ring.

Even if Ribrianne wasn't an outlier the U2 Magical Girl is painfully inconsistent.
 
1. and 18 has numerous feats that would place her way above High 4-C, but she's an outlier.... but ok... Stand up..? Does Not mean fight on Par or Defeat.... 17 could not even defeat Toppo. It's all called plot.

2. My point is she is above SSJ Goku who is universal. Read my post again to find out my point. "SSJ Goku is universal for using god ki, but that does not mean he is stronger than universal 17 or Frieza." Which means SSJ Goku is universal, but can't defeat a universal character stronger than himself.

3. Once again, he did his training as a park ranger. Where is the logic that he can go from High 4-C to 3-A with that? At least Goku did intensive training to get to his level. 18 was a support character. We rarely see her do anything. We can't just go on the assumption, she did nothing.

4. It shows that she is strong enough to take his attacks. Black hole is a feat. Did 18 dieinside of it? No.... Never said 18 was on par or stronger with 17. I'm stating she has feats to put her in base line 3-A. Also Ribrianne base form was innconsistient.. Her rage form was able to fight on par with 17 momentarily, and she became even stronger.
 
I know, I said it did not even move when Kale, Base Goku, 17, Caulifa, and 18 were shooting it with blast. Here comes 18 and moves it with her physical strength to throw her out.
 
How was she amped? I thought RIbrianne was amped. Even then U7 character got more powerful when it was near their end. Why does it not scale to her, if she defeated her?
 
^Ribrianne's base form is her skinny green haired form (Brianne de Chateau), which we never really saw in action. But you make good points overall.
 
MeleeniumRXJ said:
^Ribrianne's base form is her skinny green haired form (Brianne de Chateau), which we never really saw in action. But you make good points overall.
Click to expand...
I mean her base form when she turns into Ribrianne. It's Base Form Ribrianne, Enraged Form, and Her strongest form.
 
@ The Everlasting 18 was not showing her true raw power, when he was in the ring.

I mean none of the blast that the barrier was being hit with could not even move the barrier. All those characters had trouble with it even 18 herself until she used physical strength.
 
I mean it would not even move. Sorta like Anilaza would pushing 17 shield with is blast off to the edge. 18 was able to move her shield with physical strength.
 
bump.. I just wanna know how Krillin is upgraded to 18 level, when he trained for liked 10 minutes. He was fightning near a supressed 18 level. She didn't even show her true power when he was around. If we go by that logic then we should have 18 at low end universal level for kicking SSB supressed blast.
 
Goku was suppressing his power with perfect chi control even as a SSB, the blast that 18 kicked away was not 3-A.
 
Yes, 18 has gotten stronger. She could be 4-B, she could be 4-A, she could be 3-C, etc...see where I'm going with this? Just because something could be true and would make sense when matched to particular fights or elements in the show doesn't mean that there's the sort of evidence necessary for a tier change. Suggesting any given specific tier for 18 between High 4-C and 3-A is just placing the character where one thinks she should be without regard to the requirements for a character to actually be assigned to said tier.
 
Some of the Large Star level characters might get a "+" sign scaling from Tien's Katchin busting feat; which was a feat not even Buu Saga Gohan upon upon growing much stronger training Z Sword was able to do. And Tien destroyed a stronger version of Katchin to be specific. It's also implied that this would also make them superior to Shi. This would effect 18, Krillin, and Roshi as well, but it has been discussed numerous times that 18's 3-A feats are outliers. She's consistently portrayed as an underdog who gets rescued by 17 a lot.

17 is legit 3-A because not only does he have feats, but Goku even said, "I'm glad you're on our side now," implying he's actually quite strong and at least compatible to Goku Black/Zamasu and Hit.
 
There is no way Krillin trains for 10 minutes and equals 18 level. Heck she trained with him. By that logic she should be tier 3 since she trained with him. 17 didn't save her because was weak. He only saved her because she broke her ankle.

18 literally offered to help 17 when he was struggling with character weaker than Ribrianne.

By your logic Goku is written as the underdog and constantly needs saving. 18 has feats and durability that puts her way past tier 4.

If 18 is an outlier than literally the series is
 
Goku always hold back in every encounter with weaker foes; and even him going SSB is not a good reason for certain fighters to scale to him. The amount of power Goku used against Krillin and 18 was not even close to even the power of his base form. Him going SSB was just to give them motivation.

18 is different, she's still an underdog compared to 17, Piccolo, or Gohan. And while yes, she's easily stronger than Krillin, but she's not overwhelmingly stronger. Training with Krillin is literally the only training she's been getting at all, so it's absurd for her to be on the other character's level. Plus we don't know exactly what kind of creatures 17 has been fighting, and could be fighting beasts who are surprisingly far stronger than Buu for all we know.

Anyway, we have discussed it multiple times. As much as I want 3-A 18, it's not going to happen.
 
As much as I love the idea of 3-A 18 or 3-B, 3-C, or even 4-B, it's just not there.

17 has, IIRC, been implied to have been training over the past 10 years. The first time we see him fight since Z and he overwhelms post-Trunks Arc SSJ Goku. Goku is 3-A no matter what at that point. Goku goes SSJB and 17 holds his own with both of them holding back. It's backed up later when he fights evenly with Ribrianne who can fight SSJ Vegeta.

Really, 17 keeps showing that he's 3-A level throughout his entire appearence in Super.

18's only showing is fighting Giant Ribrianne. She's got no history of training except with Krillin. It would be different if it was said that she'd been training on the side or, I don't know, she decided to use the RoST at some point in the past. But none of that's there. So, there's just no believable basis to say how she got on level with Ribrianne, whose accolades are fighting against the improved 17, SSJ Vegeta and shrugging off a tired base Goku's attacks.

Yes, DBS's power scaling is wonky and full of a$$pulls, but we can still apply some logic to it and come out with reasonable conclusions. Sadly, a more powerful 18 is not one of them, as much as that pains me to say that.
 
The only way I could see an argument being made for 18 being stronger and taking out Ribrianne not being a true outlier, is if you by into the 'Love' argument.

Ribrianne was able to go Super Ribrianne and Giant Ribrianne by recieving 'Love', which allowed her to power up. It was was basically said that Krillin and 18's Love is what allowed her to take out Ribrianne. So you could make a key for her with 'Love Empowerment' or something.

But I see problems with that:

1. The whole Love thing is pretty unique to Universe 2 and those from it.

2. That supposed Love empowerment only lasted for that fight (specifically the moment that 18 overpowered Ribrianne) and is never referenced again. Go figure.

3. Ribrianne was the biggest reciever of such an empowerment but she already had 3-A credentials to begin with and given that she's from Universe 2 and hasn't shut up about Love, it's not that farfetched that she could do something like that.

4. It would have made more sense if the show had stated that 18 and Krillin's love allowed them to tap into the same power source that Ribrianne had or something like that. Basically, just give a better explanation than '18+Krillin 4EVER!!!' beat all the Love that Ribrianne got from Universe 2.

5. The ToP Loved (pun intended) showing and mentioning people breaking their limits. It would have been easier and better to say that 18's love for Krillin and drive to win let her push through her limits to become stronger. It still would have been an a$$pull but given how much 'Limit Breaking' got thrown around, it would have fit in all things considered.

I understand if all that sounds like me over thinking this, but I needed way to work out my fustration on how Super wasted one of my favorite characters in DB.
 
Since when was 17 training with creatures on Buu level? Even Kid Goku can deal with the creatures on their earth. Remember when 18 left her daughter to fight the poachers? Let's not make assumptions for 17, but leave 18 hanging. It's called fiction and plot. Literally everyone trained for the tournament for one episode and was ready to fight. But with 18 it's an outlier. I'm really not understanding y'all points. 18 was limit breaking just like the guys were. I'm pretty sure 17 did that when 18 was eliminated. Pretty sure Goku did that with IS, Vegeta did that with Beyond SSB, and Frieza too. Y'all can sit down and make cases for them, but with 18 "She's a massive outlier."
 
17 is visibly stated to have trained and has a multitude of feats to snow him on that level.

Literally all 18 has done is fight Ribrianne, who is insanely inconsistent regardless.
 
Because 17 fought various aliens, and I said maybe was the keyword. For all we know, 17 could be fighting alien invaders from other universes. Anyway, I know that's per speculation, but aside from the fact that there's so much unknown for how 17 got that strong, he still has numerous feats and lore statements to have him be 3-A and above.
 
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