How far into low 2-C is DBS?

[Zamasu_Chan]

And no don't bring up that GoD BS.

 

[Jinx666]

Hard tier to really consider any sort of lengths within it in general tbh

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

That was quick.

 

[Planck69]

Based on what scaling chains I've seen and a bit of my own personal interpretation, anywhere from 400 at the least to 30,000,000 at the most times baseline.

 

[Mickey1940]

That was quick.

Correct me if I'm wrong:


Infinite Zamasu is i think slightly above Baseline

Jiren during his debut was superior to Infinite Zamasu

initial UIS Goku is comparable to that Jiren

who grew even stronger

but Goku got a zenkai from that

then Goku got a zenkai with UI again with Kefla

to the point where his SSGSS Kaioken x20 form (along with SSGSS Evolved Vegeta) was able to push Jiren to use a hint of his true power, and even then he was still casually beating back the 2 of them + 17

then Goku used UI again, which is superior to the previously aforementioned trio by a lot

then he unlocked MUIS, which not only stomped Serious Jiren, but also forced Jiren to unlock his Burning Ultimate Warrior form, and even then Jiren wasn't strong enough to win

Keep in mind that Base Jiren was already stated to be comparable to if not superior to GoDs, in which 2 of them are already 2C

So overall, they're ridiculously far into Low 2C, possibly thousands of times without using GoD statements.

With GoD statements, they're borderline 2C

 

[Planck69]

You forgot to include SSBE Vegeta, Post UIO2 SSB Goku, Kefla, GoD Toppo and the immense zenkai boosts from the Omens.

 

[Mickey1940]

You forgot to include SSBE Vegeta, Post UIO2 SSB Goku, Kefla, GoD Toppo and the immense zenkai boosts from the Omens.

1. I don't need SSGSSE Vegeta/GoD Toppo or SSJ2 Kefla cause Goku's 2nd and 3rd UIS forms vastly eclipse them respectively

2. I did include the UI zenkais, I'm just an idiot that didn't directly state it lol

 

[Planck69]

1. I don't need SSGSSE Vegeta/GoD Toppo or SSJ2 Kefla cause Goku's 2nd and 3rd UIS forms vastly eclipse them respectively

2. I did include the UI zenkais, I'm just an idiot that didn't directly state it lol

Fair point.

Small point to make though. The zenkais from the Omens are large enough that Pre-UIO2 SSB KKx20 Goku is significantly inferior to SSB Goku after it, who was capable of slightly pushing Jiren alongside Vegeta. There's also the massive boost that they get in the battles in-between so much so that they can force Jiren to use his full power against them. Then there's UIO3 which is outright comparable to Jiren, so it's at least 5 to 10 times stronger than SSB goku who was getting bodied alongside Vegeta before. Then we have UI which bodies Jiren and UBW which keeps up with Jiren.

Honestly thousands might be a lowball.

 

[Omegas03]

MUI Goku (Rage boost) > LB Jiren > Initial MUI Goku >>>> FP Base Jiren >/= UIO3 Goku = GoD level >>> 3 auras Jiren > Initial UIO3 Goku >>>> Suppressed Jiren > SSBE/SSBKKx20 > GoD Toppo >>> UIO2 Goku >>> SSB post UIO2 > UIO1 Goku/Heavily Suppressed Jiren > Infinite Zamasu = Low 2-C.

Let's see how big are the gaps though:

Heavily Suppressed Jiren scared the hell outta Beerus, while for Zamasu it was a mere concern. So we have Jiren a lot stronger than someone who is Baseline.

SSB Goku post UIO2 fought a Jiren who Belmod noted that he considerably powered up since ep 110. So SSB Goku is considerably above Baseline.

SSBKKx20/SSBE and God Toppo are 20x that, so they are far onto baseline now.

3 auras Jiren casually stomped the SSBKKx20/SSBE and 17 team, so he is even further onto Low 2-C.

Jiren went FP (finally) to beat Goku, considering he was about to destroy most people at the spectator seats and that he is stated to be > GoDs I assume he is a LOT stronger than Baseline.

Yet, MUI Goku effortlessly stomped Jiren. So he is even deeper onto the tier, let's not talk about LB Jiren and Enraged MUI Goku. I am sure they are at least 1,000 to 10,000x Baseline.

And that's not talking about Gogeta and Broly, who by multipliers alone (via SSJ Gogeta being over 50x SSB Goku and SSB Gogeta giving a SSG multiplier to that) they could be hundreds of thousands if not millions of times Baseline. And that would boost UIO3 tier characters and up who are GoD tier like Broly too.

I didn't address the fact that GoD x 2 is 2-C because you didn't want that, lol.

 

[Mickey1940]

quote

Ik thousands might a lowball, but there isn't much proof suggesting otherwise, so I'm just putting a safe range

 

[Mickey1940]

I have a question though

Why is Broly considered so much more powerful than Jiren on this wiki?

Ikari Full Power SSJ Broly was stated to be "probably" stronger than Beerus

Base Jiren was confirmed to be the "mortal who surpassed the GoDs", which grants him the same tier

In the anime, there is no massive power gap betweeen the GoDs (except for Beerus and Champa, and even then it's not a large gap at all)

so shouldn't the likes of Burning Ultimate Warrior Jiren and MUIS Goku be able to stomp Broly?

 

[Omegas03]

People have been arguing for Belmod to be way weaker than Beerus and that the gap from SSBKKx20 to FP Jiren or UIO3 can't be nearly as big from as the one that Base Gogeta/SSB Goku and FPSSJ Broly have, not counting some conflicting statements.

In my personal opinion MUI Goku/LB Jiren and SSB Gogeta could be close in strength but I don't want this to get too controversial or derailed so I won't be discussing such a thing, lol.

 

[Planck69]

And that's not talking about Gogeta and Broly, who by multipliers alone (via Gogeta being over 50x SSB Goku) they could be hundreds of thousands Baseline. And that would boost UIO3 tier characters and up who are GoD tier like Broly.

Regarding Gogeta and Broly.

Let's assume that Jiren is 4x baseline while heavily suppressed as a safe estimate. UIO1 could somewhat keep up with him. Post-UIO2 SSB Goku is even stronger than that. And we know that the zenkai from the Omens is at least 20x since he goes from still being far inferior to Jiren after UIO1 as a SSB KKx20 to somewhat keeping up with his significantly raised power as SSB after UIO2. So a hypothetical Post UIO3 SSB Goku would be 80x baseline at a minimum. Factoring in the boost from the actual UI would have Post-ToP SSB Goku at 1600x baseline at the least.

Base Gogeta was keeping up with SS Broly better than SSB Goku and Vegeta so he would be about 3200 times baseline at base. Assuming that SSG is a 5X multiplier, we have SSG Gogeta and by extension FP SS Broly (though he is somewhat stronger than this) at:

3200 x 50 x 2 x 4 x 5 = 6,400,000 times baseline.

According to me at least.

 

[Mickey1940]

People have been arguing for Belmod to be way weaker than Beerus and that the gap from SSBKKx20 to FP Jiren or UIO3 can't be nearly as big from as the one that Base Gogeta/SSB Goku and FPSSJ Broly have, not counting some conflicting statements.
In my personal opinion MUI Goku/LB Jiren and SSB Gogeta could be close in strength but I don't want this to get too controversial or derailed so I won't be discussing such a thing, lol.

YES thank you

also hapy new year for all y'all in time zones past NYC

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

People just make the gap between Jiren and Broly arbitrarily big. They're not that far apart lmao.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

Doesn't this wiki claim that Beerus and Champas are borderline 2-C? That's unquantifiably into Low 2-C

 

[Planck69]

Doesn't this wiki claim that Beerus and Champas are borderline 2-C? That's unquantifiably into Low 2-C

He's trying to see how far the scaling chain can go from Low 2-C.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Bump.

 

[Omegas03]

I'll try to do it, this time with numbers...

Infinite Zamasu will be a 1*Low 2-C. as he is Baseline.

Infinite Zamasu: 1.

Heavily Suppressed Jiren scared the hell out of Beerus and Kaioshin later states he's the toughest opponent they've ever faced. let's assume Heavily Suppressed Jiren along with UIO1 Goku are 5x Zamasu.

UIO1 Goku: 5.

I'll jump to Episode 123 since the rest isn't important. SSJB Goku fought with a Jiren that was using more power than in Ep 109-110. even Belmod was surprised at the amount of energy he was using. For the sake of consistency let's assume SSJB Goku is 2x UIO1, hence 10x Baseline, and his Kaioken x20 is 200x Baseline obviously.

SSJB Goku: 10. up to 200 with Kaioken. SSJBE Vegeta may be a 250 or 300 post Toppo.

Jiren powers up to his 3 auras mode and Goku, Vegeta and 17 aren't anything to him. He absolutely stomps the Trio. let's assume Jiren is 5x SSJBKKx20.

Jiren: 1,000.

UIO3 Goku appears and he catches Jiren off guard and lands a hit to the gut which Jiren didn't receive that well. let's put UIO3 1.5x 3 auras Jiren.

UIO3 Goku (Initial): 1,500.

Yet Jiren in this fight has the upper hand over Goku until the very end where Goku is starting to power up and get the hang of UI even forcing Jiren to his maximum power which was going to kill everyone at the spectator seats. let's assume they are 2x Initial UIO3 Goku for the sake of it.

UIO3 Goku (adapted)/FP Jiren: 3,000.

MUI Goku completely blitzes and stomps Jiren, Jiren has absolutely no chance against MUI whatsoever. let's assume there's a 5x gap between them.

MUI Goku: 15,000. the rage boost makes him somewhat stronger, maybe 20,000.

this is being conservative and not counting Gogeta since UI, Jiren and Broly are closer to SSJB Gogeta than to the SSJG one. the same Gogeta who in Base is above SSJB Goku who's a 10 in this scale. SSJ Gogeta would be end up over 500. considering how far stronger than SSJ3 is SSJG, SSJG Gogeta would be at least in the 20k if not more. multiply that by 50 and you have Gogeta Blue who'll be at least 1,000,000x baseline. UI/MUI, Base/LB Jiren and Broly are approaching him. In fact I believe MUI and LB Jiren to be closer if not at his lvl of strength.

 

[Mickey1940]

SSGSS Gogeta toyed with Full Power SSJ Ikari Broly, who is stated to be around/above Beerus's level. Base Jiren is also above Beerus's level since he's "the mortal stronger than GoDs", and MUIS Goku toyed with him, then MUIS Goku got a rage boost after that

So I daresay that MUIS Goku is stronger than SSGSS Gogeta

 

[AwkguyDB]

Jiren's pinky toe >>>> Baseline

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

SSGSS Gogeta toyed with Full Power SSJ Ikari Broly, who is stated to be around/above Beerus's level. Base Jiren is also above Beerus's level since he's "the mortal stronger than GoDs", and MUIS Goku toyed with him, then MUIS Goku got a rage boost after that
So I daresay that MUIS Goku is stronger than SSGSS Gogeta

p. sure that isn't the case. Goku is stronger in Broly than he was in ToP. Beerus can also use Ultra Instinct to a degree, I'd like to note. Anyway, SSBE Vegeta is at least equal to a newborn God of Destruction Toppo, and he should also be stronger in his SSBlue form after all the zenkais. SSBlue Goku/Vegeta in Broly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSGod (BoG) that fought 70% Beerus. SSBlue Vegeta + SSBlue Goku, then multiplied by an unknown number, should 100% be at least *as* strong as Full Power Jiren/MUI Goku/Beerus.


SSJ FP/Ikari Broly was stated to be "probably stronger than Beerus" by Goku in the official translation of the movie, tho', so I'm more inclined to believe Gogeta is stronger.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Jiren and MUI Goku would slap Broly, what are you talking about?

 

[AwkguyDB]

Jiren and MUI Goku wouldn't slap Broly lol. If anything they are all relative to each other.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I don't know if anyone knows this or not, but in the Novelization of the DBS Broly movie, it was stated that Gogeta used a hint of his Full Power to take out Broly, who is comparable to Beerus. LB Jiren and MUI Goku would slap Beerus and by extension Broly. Maybe not Gogeta, but they would definitely win.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I read the entire translation for Gogeta vs Broly. Nowhere did it state that Gogeta used a hint of his true power.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I swear I heard someone tell me that before.

 

[Ionliosite]

MUI Goku, UBW Jiren and SSJL Broly should all be comparable to each other, all of them scale above Beerus.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

UBW?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

MUI Goku, UBW Jiren and SSJL Broly should all be comparable to each other, all of them scale above Beerus.

FP Jiren is perhaps stronger that Belmod.

MUI Goku might be stronger than Beerus.

LSSJ Broly is probably stronger.

It's pretty consistent that their comparable.

 

[AwkguyDB]

I don't know if anyone knows this or not, but in the Novelization of the DBS Broly movie, it was stated that Gogeta used a hint of his Full Power to take out Broly, who is comparable to Beerus. LB Jiren and MUI Goku would slap Beerus and by extension Broly. Maybe not Gogeta, but they would definitely win.

you can read the translations for yourself here

 

[Sera_EX]

I have a better question, Why does it matter if AP gets shafted 90% of the time by hax in a vs discussion?

But to answer your question (despite it being answered a thousand times already), DB has a standard scaling chain, nothing too significant, but not to be underestimated. It's definitely not the "Low 2-C equivalent of Digimon" or any nonsense like that I've been seeing, but it's comparable to other well-known universe level verses.

 

[AwkguyDB]

I have a better question, Why does it matter if AP gets shafted 90% of the time by hax in a vs discussion?
But to answer your question (despite it being answered a thousand times already), DB has a standard scaling chain, nothing too significant, but not to be underestimated. It's definitely not the "Low 2-C equivalent of Digimon" or any nonsense like that I've been seeing, but it's comparable to other well-known universe level verses.

TBF not everyone leads with their hax in the beginning of a fight. The AP can be a huge difference in the results of the fight even if a character has the means to outhax. Otherwise Beerus might aswell lead with Hakai in every fight.

 

[Sera_EX]

I agree 100%

 

[Mickey1940]

I have a better question, Why does it matter if AP gets shafted 90% of the time by hax in a vs discussion?
But to answer your question (despite it being answered a thousand times already), DB has a standard scaling chain, nothing too significant, but not to be underestimated. It's definitely not the "Low 2-C equivalent of Digimon" or any nonsense like that I've been seeing, but it's comparable to other well-known universe level verses.

TBF not everyone leads with their hax in the beginning of a fight. The AP can be a huge difference in the results of the fight even if a character has the means to outhax. Otherwise Beerus might aswell lead with Hakai in every fight.

Beerus actually does lead with Hakai most of the time cause he's a lazy f*ck and wants to go home and eat

 

[Omegas03]

If Beerus finds someone worthy to fight he'll just have fun like in SSG Goku case. Otherwise he just hakais that annoying person aka Zamasu and that ghost, am I forgetting someone?

 

[Ovrhide]

MUI Goku, UBW Jiren and SSJL Broly should all be comparable to each other, all of them scale above Beerus.

FP Jiren is perhaps stronger that Belmod.
MUI Goku might be stronger than Beerus.

LSSJ Broly is probably stronger.

It's pretty consistent that their comparable.

Its likely because of the UI Omen picture in said magazine that stated that goku is probably stronger than beerus, even tho it was describing MUI.

 

[Mickey1940]

MUI Goku, UBW Jiren and SSJL Broly should all be comparable to each other, all of them scale above Beerus.

FP Jiren is perhaps stronger that Belmod.
MUI Goku might be stronger than Beerus.

LSSJ Broly is probably stronger.

It's pretty consistent that their comparable.

Base Jiren was already stated to be "the mortal stronger than a GoD", which would put him on par with FP SSJ Ikari Broly. His BUW form should be much stronger.

MUIS Goku should be far stronger as well

 

[Ovrhide]

MUI Goku, UBW Jiren and SSJL Broly should all be comparable to each other, all of them scale above Beerus.

FP Jiren is perhaps stronger that Belmod.
MUI Goku might be stronger than Beerus.

LSSJ Broly is probably stronger.

It's pretty consistent that their comparable.

Base Jiren was already stated to be "the mortal stronger than a GoD", which would put him on par with FP SSJ Ikari Broly. His BUW form should be much stronger.
MUIS Goku should be far stronger as well

Correct, he was stronger than A god. not all gods. and MUI Goku was probably above beerus going by a promotional promo (which people mistake with UI omen because of the picture on the top segment). If anything, MUI was the one who got the same hype as Broly, not normal Jiren. They are all comparable. you can obviously argue broly being the weaker of the three, but still in the same domain of power.

 

[Mickey1940]

None of the GoDs are stated to be stronger/weaker than other GoDs in the anime (except Beerus > Champa as a joke, and Belmod > Beerus in arm wrestling).

Either way, Base Jiren should be stronger than Belmod, who is comparable to if not stronger than Beerus, who is weaker than FP SSJ Ikari Broly

Therefore Base Jiren and Broly are in the same domain of power, and that makes BUW Jiren (and MUIS Goku) far stronger than Broly