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Honkai Cosmology and Scaling Philosophy Rework

After clearing Captain Bizzare Adventure in my backlog, I'm here for a while.

Disagree with Solacis's cause Avenger and Garrixian reason.

Also Ryuusuke.

Honestly, I agree that some characters are tier 6. Seeing pre-ferryman Kanchou as 4-A burned my soul.

Ferryman and post-ferryman Kanchou are different beast.
 

Summary for the 11-D Removal Rejection:​

GarrixianXD said:

The third paragraph interprets that the universe that's familiar to us consists of 4 infinite expanding dimensions and 7 limitedly-curling up dimensions. Implies the main universe is part of the spectrum but that description does not imply the entirety of the Sea of Quanta itself.

The second paragraph interprets that those bubble universes inherit the 11th-dimensional properties of the Tub and could choose to bequeath those properties or not.

Also I don't know what context is "String Dimensions" interpreted but I'm unsure where the argument that it's inferior to infinite spatial dimensions stems from.

String theory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
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Avengershows said:
Okay, I will write my thoughts on this:

In regards to the 4+7 thing, I believe that it refers to the main world in which Honkai 3rd takes place in. Why do I believe so? Well, because the characters in the visual novel use the word "Multiverse" within the same (iirc) explanation, to explain the Sea of Quanta. Now, I am aware that this term does not actually apply to the SoQ, but that's because of the "unreliable narrator trope". This was simply something they did, and later decided they don't like those terms (Multiverse & that bizz), and changed them to be more consistent with what HG2 was doing (this also happened in the main HI3rd game, where Einstein decided to explain the whole SoQ using the "Multiple Universes" analogy despite in the background saying "World (whatever names)" and later mentions never using Universe for individual Worlds (in CN ofc))

There's also the fact that the Sea of Quanta, even if you ignore above and say "That Universe" means the IMT, has an outright stated 11 dimensions, which different world bubbles can inherit.

There is also the whole Ryuske v Welt thing, where Ryusuke uses the Reality-Fiction trope and Welt hits him with the "If you understand it, Gravitation Effect is connected across dimensions" which happened in the same chapter and clearly refers to the power of gravity already being higher dimensional and just needing understanding for Welt to be able to use that aspect of it, and the whole HG2 thing where a character who went through the heat-death of the Universe multiple times explains that the laws of physics are created by consciousness.

I could go more into what HG2 says but I'd need to collect it all because a 10 year old game is large
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Avengershows said:
unknown.png
image.png

"The dimensions of space are infinite. At this time, just their axes alone are already infinite two-by-two perpendicular straight lines."

"the Universe" in chinese is "that Universe", and no, it's not talking about the bathtub. It literally says "for example" there after saying inheritance can come at trade-offs dawg
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Avengershows said:
Jesus Christ this thread is going to make me wish I had a lobotomy, anyway, I'll restate my points:

  • The Sea of Quanta is stated to be 11 dimensional, verbatim. It is not stated to be 4+7 dimensional. That statement refers to a specific world, (which you can literally see by the sentence structure there) which has inherited 4 proper and 7 string dimensions. There are setbacks to the inheritance of dimensions, which can result in stuff like string dimensions.
  • Within Honkai 2, there was a Universe which had proper, full dimensions, that ended up becoming string dimensions due to a certain civilization messing around too much and causing an accident, but that's neither here nor there.
  • Within Honkai 2, the Honkai (as in, beings of the Honkai) are outright stated to work on a Higher Dimensional level, and cannot be faced by Lower Dimensional Beings
  • Within Honkai 2, Seele is higher dimensional, and has complete domination over lower dimensions, this is stated in her first appearance outright. She also created a higher dimensional space.
  • Within Honkai 2, Sirin is able to effortlessly create an infinite Imaginary Space, Imaginary Spaces being stated to be higher dimensional compared to the real, 4 dimensional world (or in this case, 4+7D world)
  • Within Honkai 2, Delta becomes a higher dimensional existence, one above all others that was never reached by any human in any other world.
  • Within Honkai 2, Otto points out that Higher Dimensional Beings can completely dominate Lower Dimensional Existences
  • Within Honkai 2, it is outright stated that the laws of physics, of the world, and of dimensions are formed subjectively by the understanding of civilizations, and that they can change from the world being governed by 4 elements to complex physics
  • Within Honkai 3, Ryusuke states that being Higher Dimensional makes you view Lower Dimensions as fiction
  • Within Honkai 3, Herrschers are stated to have their powers rooted in Higher Dimensions
  • Within Honkai 3, Welt states that Gravity as a force is already a part of Higher Dimensions, and to use it's full abilities, all he has to do is understand it.
  • Within Honkai 3, there are multiple statements about Higher Dimensional beings and Imaginary Space transcending the real world
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ThanatosX said:
I agree with GarrixianXD, Honkai Impact is in a tremendous state imho.
Anyways, I disagree with the revision. It's established in the Alien Key that higher dimensions in HI treats lower ones as fictional, so even if the 7 additional dimensions are finite the type of trascendence between dimensions is a reality-fictional one, so a conceptual trascendence rather than the higher dimensions being infinitely bigger than lower ones. Given everything, I don't agree with the Imaginary Tree only being 6-D, and I think that both the Tree and the Sea of Quanta should still be 11-D, althought it should be higher imho.
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Paul_Frank said:
I have to disagree here as well, as I've mentioned on multiple servers to Sol, the "finitely curled" thing, the basis of the entire crt, is mentioned in regards to our world, never any others. Avenger has even shown this with the original Chinese there

In fact it doesn't make sense to apply it to every dimension possible. The SoQ and Tree are higher dimensional and as such so superior to our world they are indescribable without metaphors for instance, where space and time are meaningless due to its structure, this would not be the case if they share the exact same dimensionality as our world. Further you have other worlds like the one from the Durandal VN which explicitly don't have the same explanation for dimensions as ours, given they're manifolds, branes and such, and they go out of their way to describe those rather than string dimensions, this combined with the fact that the description for the SoQ mentions that the worlds have their choice of inheritance of the 11 dimensions within the sea, shows that they do not all share this string theory dimensions thing.

However besides the fact it doesn't apply to anything else besides the main world, it's validity in downplaying the tiers is also questionable. It has a thing blatantly going against it in the Alien Key manga's very clear r-f statement. It's a super clear inarguable r>f statement in fact, but the way you've chosen to try and address it is to say that it doesn't count because Welt affects him with gravity, but that's disingenuous and you're ignoring why that is. Welt explains that it's because gravity works the same in every dimension, before then using a power which is the singularity from which space as a whole is built, and that's what's able to actually hurt him.

To explain why this isn't an anti feat, we need to look at Welt's explanation for his powers, firstly let's start with the singularity thing, it's pretty obvious that if you're restarting space as a whole, you'd affect all spatial dimensions, that's sorta just how it works, unless you're spatial manip is only 3 dimensional. As for the gravity thing, gravity affecting all dimensions is simply how the power works, if gravity exists in all dimensions, as many theories posit it does, then Welt being able to use it to affect a higher d being does not at all mean that higher d being's r>f is fake, rather that's just how gravity works in universe. You've said before that saying that means anyone who tanks gravity is higher d, but that's incorrect, Welt simply isn't hitting people in normal space with 5d gravity or anything, because they aren't in a higher dimension. Furthermore, Herrschers having higher d powers is pretty consistent with other stuff in the verse
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Avengershows said:
Refer to post above, I translated the statement directly.

^ Right here


image.png

Claire: Hahaha... To deal with humanity, Honkai doesn't need tactics! Did you all really think that you're fighting within the same dimension the Honkai is? Ridiculous! This isn't even a game, just a boring massacre!
image.png

Otto: That's right, in the battle against Honkai, humanity is both the player and the chess piece. Just as this chess game is the present-day model of humanity, each move is also a reflection of humanities battle with the Honkai.
But people who are in the chess game often are the ones who can't see the chess game the most, so I need a third party, to overlook our history from a higher dimension, and find a way to overcome the Honkai, Clarie was the perfect candidate.
She has extraordinary adaptability and will when dealing with the Honkai, so after becoming a Valkyrie, I asked her to fight the Honkai day and night in this testing ground, simulating any possibility of humanity fighting back the Honkai, as to find a way to defeat the Honkai, but the results were not ideal.
Until one day, she suggested a game of chess to simulate a way to fight the Honkai, since chess was the only thing she hadn't beaten her sister once at. But seemingly to protect her sister, at first she was opposed to me adding Flora to the plan.

unknown.png

"Honkai Energy twisted into a vortex in that pair of pitch black hands. Space and the Dimensions (this is the most literal way I can translate it, to make it sound better I'd usually go for "Space and its dimensions" since it doesn't sound jagged) were left for her to dominate. (the literal Chinese phrase is something along the lines of "Left to the kneader", but it means what I translated it as)"

image.png

Otto: The ARK Fortress you built requires two conditions.
First, the Imaginary Space created by the Core of the Second Herrscher, because that way you can complete your fortress in a different plane to avoid the eyes and ears of Schicksal and build a base without fear of threat.
Second, is the ability to build a fortress in Imaginary Space. It requires your own gravitational abilities to maintain the construction and composition of the fortress, but it also consumes a lot of power.
So, you've found that the Imaginary Space that the Core of the Second Herrscher can create without a Herrscher is extremely limited, so you want to use Kiana to inherit the power of the Second Herrscher so she works for you to create an infinite space to build a bigger ARK.
uGFKUCs.png

Imaginary Space

Firstly, here is an explanation of what is the Imaginary Space

Generally speaking, within our experiments we have tested a constant relationship (such as that of the length or size of objects, the order which time follows, increments of speed, etc.) which have allowed us to determine that there is only a single space in which they exist at the same time, and is also the four dimensional space around us (the only space of real numbers).

If this four dimensional space (3 spatial dimensions + 1 temporal) is seen as a single "World Sphere", then all the space outside of this sphere would be Imaginary Space. The Imaginary Space can exist in infinite amounts.

Mathematically speaking, the space of real numbers is a peculiarity existing within innumerous imaginary space, yet is also the only space able to produce any sort of meaning.

(The rest is just talking about what happened in a manga)

image.png

Otto: Mushou Kika, I wanted to tell you the true meaning of Delta's existence. We're embarking on a path beyond the course of human evolution, and Delta will be the first "human" to enter this Dimension.
image.png

Ella: I don't quite comprehend the concept of God. Perhaps this is a general term human beings use for objects far beyond their own cognition and abilities, but from the current situation, the concept of God is not enough to explain her current state.
Judging from the sensor data, the Honkai in the Cocoon is evolving the cells and molecules in her body in a completely incomprehensible direction. All formulas and laws have been broken, Flora, is this result really what the Overseer wants?
image.png

Otto: Delta, thank you for showing me such wonderful results. Your existence has proven to me the possibility of humanity reaching another Dimension.

image.png

Humanity is just an inconspicuous speck of dust in the Universe. Even if it becomes the master of its own world, it does not have the right to decide its mode of existence in presence of Higher-Dimensional Beings.

0015.jpg

Just like a character in lower-dimensional space, no matter how hard he tries, he can't touch the people outside the book...
Just like you now.
But people outside of the book can easily destroy everything in the book, with the people within the book being unable to resist.
Click to expand...
Executor_N0 said:
About cosmology questions, some information about tiering.

First of all, String Theory isn't natively about small-scale extra dimensions. Brane Cosmology is also a part of String Theory, both the small and large extra dimensions are branches of String Theory that try to explain why the extra dimension isn't seen, one states that they are super small and so from our perspective they have all been eliminated due to dimensional compactification, the other states that they are big and exists outside of the brane that limits our world in a higher-dimensional bulk. Both are answers to strings needing extra dimensions, so it's not a case of "if there are strings, they need to be compact".

However, the fact that they were talking directly about finite curled dimensions makes that already clear, even if no string theory is mentioned.

However, that doesn't eliminate all the possibilities for large higher dimensions. If what the others are talking about is the sea of quanta having more types of physical worlds than just that one is true, it could be possible for those different physical spaces to have large higher dimensions. After all, a multiverse can include universes with a different set of laws of physics.

Another point is that although large dimensions are a way to have valid qualitative superiority, that is also not the only way. If anything the main reason why compactified dimensions don't scale naturally to larger tiers is that they are often not portrayed as giving qualitative superiority and in our system we assume that large dimensions are already giving qualitative superiority. If qualitative superiority is still proven in the series, even with compactified dimensions, I think it should be enough for higher tiers.
Click to expand...

Summary for the lower tier acceptance:​

The argument came from here:
Now to veer off to a very different but similarly painful scaling-related topic: Tier Jumps.

Why tier jumps? Because as much as it pains me as a fan of hard magic systems, sometimes characters just become thousands of times stronger overnight for no real reason. Looking at you, every JRPG ever. You and your Cloud Strifes jumping from Wall level to Multi-Continental just by getting emotional. You and your Luminaries going from City Block level to Universal+ in between Acts. All the Ren Amamiyas going from Continental to Outerversal just by getting really really motivated.

Suffice to say, I've given up on the bullshit. Honkai Impact 3rd and Honkai Star Rail have both feats and statements, and it just makes the most sense at this point to stick to both of them. Because, even when feats top out at Tier 6 while statements go up to Tier 4, when viewed through the lens of the JRPG genre that Mihoyo is very obviously inspired by (just look at their surveys for HSR), they're actually kinda consistent?

Take a look at Honkai Impact 3rd. Most characters scale to people like Siegfried or Sirin or 2E Welt Yang, who all have a fairly consistent scaling from calcs yielding 6-A and High 6-A results. Meanwhile, the top tiers all scale to feats such as creating and moving stars, rivaling supernovas, and destroying worlds. At first glance it would seem odd to bridge the two extremes together. That is, until you take into account that the characters that these top-tier feats all apply to are consistently portrayed to be in a league of their own.

Destroying worlds and rivaling supernovas are attributed to Kevin, who consistently bodies every single character that ever fights him all the way until the final battle of Part 1, where he fights the strongest forms of the protagonist trio in Kiana, Mei and Bronya. Even when fighting characters that are hyped up and are able to minutely hurt him, the instant he got serious, he blitzed, one-shot and vaporized Senti - one of the strongest characters even up until the endgame. And Elysia, who the "creating and moving stars" statements are attributed to, is consistently portrayed to only be a little weaker than Kevin.

So tiering wise, as long as the character in question is directly compared or reasonably scales to another character that scales to 4-A, and is consistently presented as being in a league of their own compared to everyone else who scales to 6-A, then it shouldn't be a problem to scale them to the former tier.
Click to expand...
@Paul_Frank disagree via this:
As for the tier 6 stuff, I have to disagree there too really, given the original tier 4 stuff explicitly came from those earlier characters (HoV and HoR having the energy needed to create the solar system, Welt's black hole calc, etc)
Click to expand...
With @Solacis counter it with this:
Welt's black hole calc has been debunked for ages. It was all born from the mistranslated explanations that were rampant in 2nd Eruption. There were no mentions of solar masses or even the Chandrasekhar Limit in the original CN text.

As for the Dudu solar system feat, iirc someone from the Discord server brought up that the actual bubble world in Dudu's VN isn't provably the same size as the real solar system, only that it was roughly at the coordinates within the Sea of Quanta that corresponded to the real solar system in Real Space.
Click to expand...
Which majority agreed on the lower tier scaling

Now for the agree/disagree vote, here is the current tally for 11-D Removal and Lower Tier Scaling:

11-D Removal:​


Agree: Unqver, Georredannea15, Phoenks (4)

Neutral: BestMGQScalerEver, Kisaragi_Megumi, Vietthai96, Harith0Cell, BoastJr, Emirp Sumitpo (7 with one staff vowed on neutral)

Disagree: GarrixianXD, Paul_Frank, AvengersShows, ShivaShakti, ThanatosX, Marshadow29, Guardian_Doge, KingNanaya, Shiroiyo, Enryu_The_Red_Tower, Jackpact, Executor_N0, DarkDragonMedeus, Andytremon [Still need more of the context regarding Sea of Quanta] (14)
Click to expand...

Lower Tier Scaling:​


Agree: GarrixianXD, AvengersShows, Enryu_The_Red_Tower, Jackpact, Harith0Cell, Jackpact, Kisaragi_Megumi, Vietthai96, DarkDragonMedeus, Emirp Sumitpo (10)

Neutral:

Disagree: Paul_Frank (1)
Click to expand...

Hope this will help and thus finished this thread, and i hope as well i didn't miss some important point lel
 
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I'm going to remain neutral then, out of everyone who commented, Executor IMO is the one who is consistently most knowledgeable when it comes to Tier 1 stuff from my experience.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I'm going to remain neutral then, out of everyone who commented, Executor IMO is the one who is consistently most knowledgeable when it comes to Tier 1 stuff from my experience.
Click to expand...
Executor stayed neutral because he didn't know about the verse so he didn't trust his own judgement; nonetheless, all his arguments are actually what debunk this proposition.
 
GarrixianXD said:
Executor stayed neutral because he didn't know about the verse so he didn't trust his own judgement; nonetheless, all his arguments are actually what debunk this proposition.
Click to expand...
Exactly, despite him in neutral position, all of his arguments made the downgrade on 11-D even more moot, combined with the op acknowledged and agreed on the tier 1 downgrade rejection say it a lot

So yeah this thread is actually done with the result of hard rejection on tier 1 downgrade, accepting the new scaling chain on lower tier, what we need is staffs input

Hope this will make it clear @DarkDragonMedeus
 
GarrixianXD said:
Executor stayed neutral because he didn't know about the verse so he didn't trust his own judgement; nonetheless, all his arguments are actually what debunk this proposition.
Click to expand...
I read more about the contents of the blog and I have another thing to say about a few arguments from "The Misconception" that made me more sure about not really getting into the downgrade.

According to the blog, the two reasons for the downgrade are:

1) The physical dimensions themselves are Planck-sized, so they don't fit as qualitative superiority by our systems
2) The qualitative superiority scans aren't literal and it's just talking about range.

As I said before, if there's a plurality of physical systems as some still want to use the 1st topic say it has, then it's perfectly fine to have multiple levels of higher dimensions with some not fitting with the system and others being able to. But I don't have the context to that, so I won't comment on it.

But the 2nd point is the important one, the blog says it wasn't a literal superiority because Welt was able to defeat him after starting to "think in higher dimensions". That really isn't what I get from the scans, according to what Welt himself said "as long as you understand its existence, gravity works the same in every dimension. And back to the singularity where space was born, even dimension weapons are useless". This is not Welt out of nowhere saying the difference was a lie or proof that anyone could defeat him just by "thinking in more dimensions". It's propriety of gravity and the origin of space itself work the same in any n-dimensional space (Which fits with real-world physics, gravity is one of the forces said to affect other-dimensional spaces for example".

I don't get anything more from that line than Welt realizing the bigger scope of his own gravity-based abilities that if used in the right perception, can affect higher-dimensional entities with that ability. Like, I don't think Welt's non-gravity-based abilities could have done the same. As far as what he said there, it happened because gravity allowed that to happen, not because the qualitative superiority was a lie.
 
Executor_N0 said:
I read more about the contents of the blog and I have another thing to say about a few arguments from "The Misconception" that made me more sure about not really getting into the downgrade.

According to the blog, the two reasons for the downgrade are:

1) The physical dimensions themselves are Planck-sized, so they don't fit as qualitative superiority by our systems
2) The qualitative superiority scans aren't literal and it's just talking about range.

As I said before, if there's a plurality of physical systems as some still want to use the 1st topic say it has, then it's perfectly fine to have multiple levels of higher dimensions with some not fitting with the system and others being able to. But I don't have the context to that, so I won't comment on it.

But the 2nd point is the important one, the blog says it wasn't a literal superiority because Welt was able to defeat him after starting to "think in higher dimensions". That really isn't what I get from the scans, according to what Welt himself said "as long as you understand its existence, gravity works the same in every dimension. And back to the singularity where space was born, even dimension weapons are useless". This is not Welt out of nowhere saying the difference was a lie or proof that anyone could defeat him just by "thinking in more dimensions". It's propriety of gravity and the origin of space itself work the same in any n-dimensional space (Which fits with real-world physics, gravity is one of the forces said to affect other-dimensional spaces for example".

I don't get anything more from that line than Welt realizing the bigger scope of his own gravity-based abilities that if used in the right perception, can affect higher-dimensional entities with that ability. Like, I don't think Welt's non-gravity-based abilities could have done the same. As far as what he said there, it happened because gravity allowed that to happen, not because the qualitative superiority was a lie.
Click to expand...
Okay, this is literally finalized the whole conclusion of the thread, and i guess we can take this as Ex has finally moved from neutral to disagree with the 11-D removal
Are you going to stay neutral? @DarkDragonMedeus
 
I'll retract my vote for the Tier 1 thing. After rereading the Tier 1 arguments, I got lost and I think I'll just stay neutral for now on that part. Tier 1 isn't my strong suit.

I still agree to the scaling thing tho.
 
Emirp sumitpo said:
I'll retract my vote for the Tier 1 thing. After rereading the Tier 1 arguments, I got lost and I think I'll just stay neutral for now on that part. Tier 1 isn't my strong suit.

I still agree to the scaling thing tho.
Click to expand...
Given that Ex, the most knowledgeable member for tier 1, has finally against the 11-D removal, i think being neutral is moot now, considering the op also accept the rejection
Georredannea15 said:
Why has this taken so long, Lmao. I think someone should call DT or Ultima and make the final point.
Click to expand...
No need, everything has concluded now, we just need more staffs to approve the rejection on 11-D removal and acceptance of lower tier scaling
 
Kisaragi_Megumi said:
No need, everything has concluded now, we just need more staffs to approve the rejection on 11-D removal and acceptance of lower tier scaling
Click to expand...
There is a need. For Tier 1 revisions (especially in such matters), you will need the approval of Tier 1 experts such as DT and Ultima, and you will also need more staff than that.

There are currently only 2 staff votes.(1 nautral and 1 disagree)
 
Georredannea15 said:
There is a need. For Tier 1 revisions (especially in such matters), you will need the approval of Tier 1 experts such as DT and Ultima, and you will also need more staff than that.

There are currently only 2 staff votes.(1 nautral and 1 disagree)
Click to expand...
First of all, Executor_N0 is an expert in Tier 1 stuff, and he expressed his opinion on this matter. Second, DT and Ultima don't always need to approve or rejected every single Tier 1 revision, otherwise this wiki would become too dependent on two individuals that can't physically always be in every CRT. Third, the cosmology was High 1-C in the first place and this is an attempt at a downgrade, so I don't see why they would be needed, especially considering how complex the verse is. More staff input is needed, but at this point it's more of a formality given that the cosmology downgrade have been rejected by the vast majority, with even OP agreeing with the opposing arguments from what I can tell, and the scaling chain have mostly been accepted.
 
ThanatosX said:
First of all, Executor_N0 is an expert in Tier 1 stuff, and he expressed his opinion on this matter. Second, DT and Ultima don't always need to approve or rejected every single Tier 1 revision, otherwise this wiki would become too dependent on two individuals that can't physically always be in every CRT. Third, the cosmology was High 1-C in the first place and this is an attempt at a downgrade, so I don't see why they would be needed, especially considering how complex the verse is. More staff input is needed, but at this point it's more of a formality given that the cosmology downgrade have been rejected by the vast majority, with even OP agreeing with the opposing arguments from what I can tell, and the scaling chain have mostly been accepted.
Click to expand...
The opinions of the vast majority don't get processed at the end of the day, man. Tier 1 experts' opinions are valid at the end of the day (especially on complex threads like this)

Executor also stated that he is neutral (because the verse is complex Lmao)

As I said, man, there is a need for more staff and tier 1 experts on like this threads. Just wait for them or call other tier 1 experts.
 
Nah what Thanatos said is right, and for me one tier 1 expert is already enough
And again i already asked some staffs to come, if they are not come soon then i'll just ask DDM or Emirp to ping the following staffs that i have contacted
 
I haven't been able to read the entire thread but some of the quotes brought up seem to point to a brane cosmology 11-D, which would qualify

It's the same reason Gurren Lagann is 11-D
 
I guess. Will need some more context on the sea of quanta to know if I fully agree with 11-D
 
There's one thing I feel I should still mention.

Even with 11-D staying, no one currently in the verse (outside of GGZ characters who we have yet to index due to lack of knowledgeables) actually scale to 11-D at all. The closest we have is Kiana post-Cocoon, but she's practically featless besides vaguely having 11-D range for her cosmic awareness (which I've yet to add to her profile).
  • No Aeons except HooH and maybe Fuli have explicit Tree-level feats. All we have are vague statements on them being higher-dimensional and overwhelmingly powerful compared to Welt and everything else in HSR. The rest of their tangible feats don't even approach 3-A, much less Tier 1.
  • Lord Ravagers destroying worlds is not an 11-D feat, as we have extremely blatant context on these regarding the method of this destruction being explicitly environmental and societal in most cases, and their biggest explicit destructive feat is destroying a chain of stars, which wouldn't be more than 4-A. For reference, see the "List of Archenemies: Ruin Author" book that can be found in the right side of the Seat of Divine Foresight's entrance area.
So with all this in mind, this is really just a discussion on cosmology until @Avengershows gets to indexing GGZ, which won't be for a very long while since we've not even finished indexing Honkai 3rd, much less HSR.

The main priority here is deciding on the scaling for the actual characters. Sure, whatever, we can get more context regarding 11-D, but it's pretty much universally agreed upon that it's staying, so I'm calling it a moot point. What I believe is most important now is to get the Tier 6/Tier 4 tiering out of the way.

  • Regarding tier 6, the calc yields are pretty consistent in 6-A and High 6-A for AHR Siegfried and Sirin Ascendant.
  • Then we'd have 4-C peak Welt via HSR, which may or may not be debatable considering other scaling contexts (comparisons to Joyce, Reanna and Otto).
  • After that, we'd have 4-A Elysia from the previous CRT, with Kevin, HoFi Kiana, HoO Mei, and HoTr Bronya.
Thoughts?
 
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