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I'm saying that the blog isn't accurate to the real situation of the Sea of Quanta.
As for why Sola chose to say it's 5-D because of that, I have no clue
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Honkai Cosmology and Scaling Philosophy Rework
- Thread starter Solacis
- Start date
As for why Sola chose to say it's 5-D because of that, I have no clue
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OP looks solid to me.
Are we handling all of the Tier 6 rescaling in this thread? If so, I suggest making another thread would make it easier as this in itself is already a pretty big topic.
Are we handling all of the Tier 6 rescaling in this thread? If so, I suggest making another thread would make it easier as this in itself is already a pretty big topic.
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Except for the part where higher dimensional beings are treated as infinitely superior to lower dimensional ones?
Prime examples: Ryusuke from Honkai 3rd, Seele from Honkai 2 and Delta from Honkai 2
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Please read my response to the blog, since I believe it isn't accurate to the actual cosmology presented in game
GarrixianXD
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I’d advise you to read mines and AvengerShow’s arguments.
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But it's proven that it can't be blanketed to every dimension that exists. There still exists 4 spatial dimensions that are infinite in size qualifying for a tier but it's also in conjunction with compactified dimensions.
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And you can't assume that every dimension is a string dimension, the characters made it a point to point out the fact that the string dimensions of "that Universe" are strings. Within the Anti-Entropy novel, 2 characters state that dimensions stretch out into infinity. So what then?
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Double check the reasoning for 5-D/Low 1-C Sea of Quanta. I don't think that's legit.
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Also, the authors within extra descriptions made it very clear that the real world space (which in this case is the 4D+7SD) is characterized by that, while everything else (that has higher dimensions) is not real space.
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Seems to be referring to specific dimensional space unless you also want to say it applies to all dimensions and thus the demonstratably compactified dimensions.
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Also the fact that it's said "infinite extension in four dimensions" proves that it is or can be referring to specific dimensions and not blanketing it to every dimension there is.
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String dimensions aren't treated as proper dimensions in the lore, like, ever.
Also it wasn't referring to a specific space, it was referring to dimensions generally since that was the topic of those 2 characters, nerding off.
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???? Not the statement I'm talking about, can you please actually get a clue about what I'm talking about instead of assuming things
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Can I have proof of them not being treated as proper dimensions? Because it sure seems like they are. Unless your only proof is an absence of it which isn't really proof.
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It corroborates what statement you brought up.
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Also it IS referring to the sea of quanta not a singular universe well maybe a bit of both but context stays the same.
Oh and y'know
The bathtub is the sea of quanta.
And it's saying that this bathtub consists of or possesses 11 dimensions which is elaborated to be the 4 infinite dimensions + 7 compactified.
Oh and y'know
So my above point of it not referring to a universe was kinda wrong but my point remains the same because well they're inheriting the 11 dimensions from the sea of quanta.
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"The dimensions of space are infinite. At this time, just their axes alone are already infinite two-by-two perpendicular straight lines."
"the Universe" in chinese is "that Universe", and no, it's not talking about the bathtub. It literally says "for example" there after saying inheritance can come at trade-offs dawg
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I regret not translating this part as literally as I could simply to avoid situations like these jfc
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It literally seems to be referring to four dimensional space as the space which is infinite. Even the scan with compactified dimensions says its infinite 4-D. Very consistent that the infinite dimensions of space are limited to four. (and calling four dimensional space the only space of real numbers)
"The dimensions of space are infinite. At this time, just their axes alone are already infinite two-by-two perpendicular straight lines."
"the Universe" in chinese is "that Universe", and no, it's not talking about the bathtub. It literally says "for example" there after saying inheritance can come at trade-offs dawg
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Holy shit I want to hit you over the head with a fryingpan
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Lol okay
Vietthai96
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Hmm, excluding the 11D thing peoples still arguing about, there is a statement from Ryosuke who allegedly become a higher-dimensional being that treats lower dimensions as being akin to fiction which can be 5D.
Still to be honest, this statement is extremely random and the context isn't specific to what higher-dimesion mean or what it refering to, since Welt is a 3D guy, Ryosuke could well become 4D and see Welt as fiction. Back in the past i always have problem with this statement
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It isn't referring to anything, it literally doesn't specify which dimensions.
And again, Welt vs Ryusuke exists
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Even then it can be seperated from the 11-D stuff and not really have much relation to it as there are obviously different types of dimensions with different functions than that of a dimension of superiority.
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This reasoning itself seems to have been debunked in the OP any way.
The reasoning the OP uses is that Sea of Quanta encompasses 2-A cosmology thus is Low 1-C, which isn't the case.
Also, yeah, that statement doesn't really make sense and can easily be interpreted as him just understanding the workings of the verse more and thus being a higher existence in comparison.
Could also be the difference between 4-D and 3-D as you mentioned. Thus that should be dismissed.
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Jesus Christ this thread is going to make me wish I had a lobotomy, anyway, I'll restate my points:
- The Sea of Quanta is stated to be 11 dimensional, verbatim. It is not stated to be 4+7 dimensional. That statement refers to a specific world, (which you can literally see by the sentence structure there) which has inherited 4 proper and 7 string dimensions. There are setbacks to the inheritance of dimensions, which can result in stuff like string dimensions.
- Within Honkai 2, there was a Universe which had proper, full dimensions, that ended up becoming string dimensions due to a certain civilization messing around too much and causing an accident, but that's neither here nor there.
- Within Honkai 2, the Honkai (as in, beings of the Honkai) are outright stated to work on a Higher Dimensional level, and cannot be faced by Lower Dimensional Beings
- Within Honkai 2, Seele is higher dimensional, and has complete domination over lower dimensions, this is stated in her first appearance outright. She also created a higher dimensional space.
- Within Honkai 2, Sirin is able to effortlessly create an infinite Imaginary Space, Imaginary Spaces being stated to be higher dimensional compared to the real, 4 dimensional world (or in this case, 4+7D world)
- Within Honkai 2, Delta becomes a higher dimensional existence, one above all others that was never reached by any human in any other world.
- Within Honkai 2, Otto points out that Higher Dimensional Beings can completely dominate Lower Dimensional Existences
- Within Honkai 2, it is outright stated that the laws of physics, of the world, and of dimensions are formed subjectively by the understanding of civilizations, and that they can change from the world being governed by 4 elements to complex physics
- Within Honkai 3, Ryusuke states that being Higher Dimensional makes you view Lower Dimensions as fiction
- Within Honkai 3, Herrschers are stated to have their powers rooted in Higher Dimensions
- Within Honkai 3, Welt states that Gravity as a force is already a part of Higher Dimensions, and to use it's full abilities, all he has to do is understand it.
- Within Honkai 3, there are multiple statements about Higher Dimensional beings and Imaginary Space transcending the real world
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But it wasn't, it's based off of Sola's explanation where he literally ignores 90% of the game
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Now let me go back to this mess:
Let's look at the Chinese text shall we!
而这些“世界泡”，对于“以太浴缸”所拥有的全部11个维度，其继承也各有“取舍”。
举例来说，我们熟知的“那个宇宙”，就是一类“4个维度无限延伸、7个维度有限蜷缩、并且各种常数均符合日常经验”的“膜”。
And these "Bubble Worlds", for all 11 dimensions possessed by the "Ether Bathtub", have their own "choice" in their inheritance.
For example, what we well know as "that Universe", is a membrane class which merely has "4 infinitely extending dimensions, 7 finitely curled up dimensions, and all kinds of variables in line with daily life"
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It would have been better if you provided scans and context. This is a Tier 1 thread, you need more than claims.
Until you provide them none of this can be taken at face value, but I will respond to some stuff.
You have yet to prove they are actual dimensions and not string theory ones. String theory provides us with 11 dimensions. 10 of them are embedded within 3-D space, and there is 1 dimension of time. Thus, it is 4-D at maximum.
4 proper + 7 string dimensions is still 4-D, btw.
Also, regarding these "proper" dimensions. I am guessing it is 3 spatial and 1 temporal since that is the standard. I will go along with that assumption. Unless you have evidence that disputes this.
No idea what this is supposed to mean without context.
This is 4-D unless you have evidence of this being in reference to the entire universe/cosmology itself and not just "lower-dimensional beings"
Also 4-D unless you prove it is higher-dimensional in reference to the entire universe/cosmology itself.
Scan needed.
4-D again without more context.
4-D again without more context.
Not really relevant since we are only going off the verse's currently known cosmology.
Lower Dimensions or Lower-Dimensional Beings? And again, the extra-dimensions provided in Honkai are embedded within 3-D space.
So unless you have proof it is actually referring to the entire universal structure including time, it is 4-D.
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I agree with GarrixianXD, Honkai Impact is in a tremendous state imho.
Anyways, I disagree with the revision. It's established in the Alien Key that higher dimensions in HI treats lower ones as fictional, so even if the 7 additional dimensions are finite the type of trascendence between dimensions is a reality-fictional one, so a conceptual trascendence rather than the higher dimensions being infinitely bigger than lower ones. Given everything, I don't agree with the Imaginary Tree only being 6-D, and I think that both the Tree and the Sea of Quanta should still be 11-D, althought it should be higher imho.
Anyways, I disagree with the revision. It's established in the Alien Key that higher dimensions in HI treats lower ones as fictional, so even if the 7 additional dimensions are finite the type of trascendence between dimensions is a reality-fictional one, so a conceptual trascendence rather than the higher dimensions being infinitely bigger than lower ones. Given everything, I don't agree with the Imaginary Tree only being 6-D, and I think that both the Tree and the Sea of Quanta should still be 11-D, althought it should be higher imho.
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I have to disagree here as well, as I've mentioned on multiple servers to Sol, the "finitely curled" thing, the basis of the entire crt, is mentioned in regards to our world, never any others. Avenger has even shown this with the original Chinese there
In fact it doesn't make sense to apply it to every dimension possible. The SoQ and Tree are higher dimensional and as such so superior to our world they are indescribable without metaphors for instance, where space and time are meaningless due to its structure, this would not be the case if they share the exact same dimensionality as our world. Further you have other worlds like the one from the Durandal VN which explicitly don't have the same explanation for dimensions as ours, given they're manifolds, branes and such, and they go out of their way to describe those rather than string dimensions, this combined with the fact that the description for the SoQ mentions that the worlds have their choice of inheritance of the 11 dimensions within the sea, shows that they do not all share this string theory dimensions thing.
However besides the fact it doesn't apply to anything else besides the main world, it's validity in downplaying the tiers is also questionable. It has a thing blatantly going against it in the Alien Key manga's very clear r-f statement. It's a super clear inarguable r>f statement in fact, but the way you've chosen to try and address it is to say that it doesn't count because Welt affects him with gravity, but that's disingenuous and you're ignoring why that is. Welt explains that it's because gravity works the same in every dimension, before then using a power which is the singularity from which space as a whole is built, and that's what's able to actually hurt him.
To explain why this isn't an anti feat, we need to look at Welt's explanation for his powers, firstly let's start with the singularity thing, it's pretty obvious that if you're restarting space as a whole, you'd affect all spatial dimensions, that's sorta just how it works, unless you're spatial manip is only 3 dimensional. As for the gravity thing, gravity affecting all dimensions is simply how the power works, if gravity exists in all dimensions, as many theories posit it does, then Welt being able to use it to affect a higher d being does not at all mean that higher d being's r>f is fake, rather that's just how gravity works in universe. You've said before that saying that means anyone who tanks gravity is higher d, but that's incorrect, Welt simply isn't hitting people in normal space with 5d gravity or anything, because they aren't in a higher dimension. Furthermore, Herrschers having higher d powers is pretty consistent with other stuff in the verse
As for the tier 6 stuff, I have to disagree there too really, given the original tier 4 stuff explicitly came from those earlier characters (HoV and HoR having the energy needed to create the solar system, Welt's black hole calc, etc)
In fact it doesn't make sense to apply it to every dimension possible. The SoQ and Tree are higher dimensional and as such so superior to our world they are indescribable without metaphors for instance, where space and time are meaningless due to its structure, this would not be the case if they share the exact same dimensionality as our world. Further you have other worlds like the one from the Durandal VN which explicitly don't have the same explanation for dimensions as ours, given they're manifolds, branes and such, and they go out of their way to describe those rather than string dimensions, this combined with the fact that the description for the SoQ mentions that the worlds have their choice of inheritance of the 11 dimensions within the sea, shows that they do not all share this string theory dimensions thing.
However besides the fact it doesn't apply to anything else besides the main world, it's validity in downplaying the tiers is also questionable. It has a thing blatantly going against it in the Alien Key manga's very clear r-f statement. It's a super clear inarguable r>f statement in fact, but the way you've chosen to try and address it is to say that it doesn't count because Welt affects him with gravity, but that's disingenuous and you're ignoring why that is. Welt explains that it's because gravity works the same in every dimension, before then using a power which is the singularity from which space as a whole is built, and that's what's able to actually hurt him.
To explain why this isn't an anti feat, we need to look at Welt's explanation for his powers, firstly let's start with the singularity thing, it's pretty obvious that if you're restarting space as a whole, you'd affect all spatial dimensions, that's sorta just how it works, unless you're spatial manip is only 3 dimensional. As for the gravity thing, gravity affecting all dimensions is simply how the power works, if gravity exists in all dimensions, as many theories posit it does, then Welt being able to use it to affect a higher d being does not at all mean that higher d being's r>f is fake, rather that's just how gravity works in universe. You've said before that saying that means anyone who tanks gravity is higher d, but that's incorrect, Welt simply isn't hitting people in normal space with 5d gravity or anything, because they aren't in a higher dimension. Furthermore, Herrschers having higher d powers is pretty consistent with other stuff in the verse
As for the tier 6 stuff, I have to disagree there too really, given the original tier 4 stuff explicitly came from those earlier characters (HoV and HoR having the energy needed to create the solar system, Welt's black hole calc, etc)
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I think I'm more neutral with more explanations now
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Although I completely disagree with compactified dimensions having R>F as that would lead to nonsensical circular scaling
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Yeah i'm on true neutral now
Also Thanatos pls don't use "tremendous state" since this is just blatant doomposting
Also Thanatos pls don't use "tremendous state" since this is just blatant doomposting
Vietthai96
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Refer to post above, I translated the statement directly.
^ Right here
Claire: Hahaha... To deal with humanity, Honkai doesn't need tactics! Did you all really think that you're fighting within the same dimension the Honkai is? Ridiculous! This isn't even a game, just a boring massacre!
Otto: That's right, in the battle against Honkai, humanity is both the player and the chess piece. Just as this chess game is the present-day model of humanity, each move is also a reflection of humanities battle with the Honkai.
But people who are in the chess game often are the ones who can't see the chess game the most, so I need a third party, to overlook our history from a higher dimension, and find a way to overcome the Honkai, Clarie was the perfect candidate.
She has extraordinary adaptability and will when dealing with the Honkai, so after becoming a Valkyrie, I asked her to fight the Honkai day and night in this testing ground, simulating any possibility of humanity fighting back the Honkai, as to find a way to defeat the Honkai, but the results were not ideal.
Until one day, she suggested a game of chess to simulate a way to fight the Honkai, since chess was the only thing she hadn't beaten her sister once at. But seemingly to protect her sister, at first she was opposed to me adding Flora to the plan.
"Honkai Energy twisted into a vortex in that pair of pitch black hands. Space and the Dimensions (this is the most literal way I can translate it, to make it sound better I'd usually go for "Space and its dimensions" since it doesn't sound jagged) were left for her to dominate. (the literal Chinese phrase is something along the lines of "Left to the kneader", but it means what I translated it as)"
Otto: The ARK Fortress you built requires two conditions.
First, the Imaginary Space created by the Core of the Second Herrscher, because that way you can complete your fortress in a different plane to avoid the eyes and ears of Schicksal and build a base without fear of threat.
Second, is the ability to build a fortress in Imaginary Space. It requires your own gravitational abilities to maintain the construction and composition of the fortress, but it also consumes a lot of power.
So, you've found that the Imaginary Space that the Core of the Second Herrscher can create without a Herrscher is extremely limited, so you want to use Kiana to inherit the power of the Second Herrscher so she works for you to create an infinite space to build a bigger ARK.
Imaginary Space
Firstly, here is an explanation of what is the Imaginary Space
Generally speaking, within our experiments we have tested a constant relationship (such as that of the length or size of objects, the order which time follows, increments of speed, etc.) which have allowed us to determine that there is only a single space in which they exist at the same time, and is also the four dimensional space around us (the only space of real numbers).
If this four dimensional space (3 spatial dimensions + 1 temporal) is seen as a single "World Sphere", then all the space outside of this sphere would be Imaginary Space. The Imaginary Space can exist in infinite amounts.
Mathematically speaking, the space of real numbers is a peculiarity existing within innumerous imaginary space, yet is also the only space able to produce any sort of meaning.
(The rest is just talking about what happened in a manga)
Otto: Mushou Kika, I wanted to tell you the true meaning of Delta's existence. We're embarking on a path beyond the course of human evolution, and Delta will be the first "human" to enter this Dimension.
Ella: I don't quite comprehend the concept of God. Perhaps this is a general term human beings use for objects far beyond their own cognition and abilities, but from the current situation, the concept of God is not enough to explain her current state.
Judging from the sensor data, the Honkai in the Cocoon is evolving the cells and molecules in her body in a completely incomprehensible direction. All formulas and laws have been broken, Flora, is this result really what the Overseer wants?
Otto: Delta, thank you for showing me such wonderful results. Your existence has proven to me the possibility of humanity reaching another Dimension.
Humanity is just an inconspicuous speck of dust in the Universe. Even if it becomes the master of its own world, it does not have the right to decide its mode of existence in presence of Higher-Dimensional Beings.
Just like a character in lower-dimensional space, no matter how hard he tries, he can't touch the people outside the book...
Just like you now.
But people outside of the book can easily destroy everything in the book, with the people within the book being unable to resist.
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About cosmology questions, some information about tiering.
First of all, String Theory isn't natively about small-scale extra dimensions. Brane Cosmology is also a part of String Theory, both the small and large extra dimensions are branches of String Theory that try to explain why the extra dimension isn't seen, one states that they are super small and so from our perspective they have all been eliminated due to dimensional compactification, the other states that they are big and exists outside of the brane that limits our world in a higher-dimensional bulk. Both are answers to strings needing extra dimensions, so it's not a case of "if there are strings, they need to be compact".
However, the fact that they were talking directly about finite curled dimensions makes that already clear, even if no string theory is mentioned.
However, that doesn't eliminate all the possibilities for large higher dimensions. If what the others are talking about is the sea of quanta having more types of physical worlds than just that one is true, it could be possible for those different physical spaces to have large higher dimensions. After all, a multiverse can include universes with a different set of laws of physics.
Another point is that although large dimensions are a way to have valid qualitative superiority, that is also not the only way. If anything the main reason why compactified dimensions don't scale naturally to larger tiers is that they are often not portrayed as giving qualitative superiority and in our system we assume that large dimensions are already giving qualitative superiority. If qualitative superiority is still proven in the series, even with compactified dimensions, I think it should be enough for higher tiers.
First of all, String Theory isn't natively about small-scale extra dimensions. Brane Cosmology is also a part of String Theory, both the small and large extra dimensions are branches of String Theory that try to explain why the extra dimension isn't seen, one states that they are super small and so from our perspective they have all been eliminated due to dimensional compactification, the other states that they are big and exists outside of the brane that limits our world in a higher-dimensional bulk. Both are answers to strings needing extra dimensions, so it's not a case of "if there are strings, they need to be compact".
However, the fact that they were talking directly about finite curled dimensions makes that already clear, even if no string theory is mentioned.
However, that doesn't eliminate all the possibilities for large higher dimensions. If what the others are talking about is the sea of quanta having more types of physical worlds than just that one is true, it could be possible for those different physical spaces to have large higher dimensions. After all, a multiverse can include universes with a different set of laws of physics.
Another point is that although large dimensions are a way to have valid qualitative superiority, that is also not the only way. If anything the main reason why compactified dimensions don't scale naturally to larger tiers is that they are often not portrayed as giving qualitative superiority and in our system we assume that large dimensions are already giving qualitative superiority. If qualitative superiority is still proven in the series, even with compactified dimensions, I think it should be enough for higher tiers.
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Disagree for Paul's reasons
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Brane cosmology is used.
Welt states that gravity is interlinked across all dimensions, in the Alien Space manga, which is something that Brane Cosmology (according to wikipedia) uses, there's also this voiceline from Veneziano (HG2)'s profile:
"十一维，弦与膜，终极的大一统……世界的本源，究竟是什么呢?"
"Eleven Dimensions, Strings and Branes, the ultimate unity... What is the origin of the world?"
There's also the fact that the CN (i just checked lol) uses the word "Brane" to describe different worlds, you gave me the idea to check for what that word even meant
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Like, right here,
膜 is used for branes in physics, I don't know how I never noticed that
https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/膜_(物理學)
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