High 7-A Tournament Round 1, Match 4 (Metagross VS Sanji)

[RazumaHiroki]

Not to mention that Katakuri foresaw Big Father attacking Big mom (Big father is an inanimate object) and foresaw a cake "falling", mind you cakes doesn't have a soul and are fundamentally inanimate objects.

 

[RazumaHiroki]

Kenbunshoku haki could care less if you are alive, animal, monster, invisible, inanimate object, zombie, Stone, Golem, etc etc. You are still getting sensed by people who possess Kenbunshoku haki, especially by those with Advanced Kenbunshoku Haki.

 

[Imaginym]

In the one piece world, invisibility has many meanings such as erasing one's presence, turning himself invisible and creatures beyond anyone's comprehension.

So, when you said: "By monsters, invisible beings and "Sillhoutes", Rayleigh refers to any being that's living on One piece, otherwise he would've told Luffy that there exist things he cannot sense. For example "invisible beings"."
....Which of those many meanings did you mean?

Rayleigh conquered every island, every country and discovered the biggest mystery of the One piece's world. Rayleigh is Roger's right hand, automatically a reliable source. Why would Rayleigh lie or half-heartedly explaining things to Luffy? Rayleigh has faced countless of DF users & mysterious creatures, him telling that observation haki grants him to sense beings that don't have a soul or are invisible beings is accepted here. So going by the Wiki's rules, Sanji can indeed sense Meta, so honestly why is that a debate in the first place?

Why should he tell everything to Luffy, a headstrong young up-start, who, like many others, seeks to conquer the Grand Line?
& are you saying those "invisible" beings are confirmed as having no Souls?
But ARE there Soulless beings Rayleigh could have reasonably encountered in his travels through the Grand Line?
I don't think that we can just assume something unprecedented simply exists & was encountered, without evidence.

& if Haki can detect Soulless beings is something accepted, where was it accepted, under what evidence, & why is there no mention of the word "Soul" in the Haki page?

Every Advanced Kenbunshoku Haki can do that. Otherwise Sanji wouldn't be classified as "Advanced Kenbunshoku Haki user" in the first place, the proof you are asking is literally written on his profile picture and Haki page. Since it's confirmed by Oda that Sanji's Kenbunshoku Haki is comparable to cough Katakuri, pretty self-explanatory if you have watched whole cake arc or Luffy vs Katakuri.

Ah, this text, right?: "Other users can also perform active precognition--seeing events transpiring at least several seconds before they occur."
Hadn't noticed it earlier my mistake.

Also, I have not gotten through Whole Cake Arc. I am not even through Dressrosa.

Don’t know what going on but Kenbunshoku Haki can be used on inanimate objects as shown when Luffy could predict the movements of a Pacifista, a cyborg/human weapon (Chapter 601), and Koby could use it to sense a torpedo heading straight at a ship (Chapter 903).

If a Pacifista is part human, a Pacifista is still partially organic, & presumably, has life force, doesn't it? I vaguely remember something about Bartholomew Kuma's influence gradually fading from one, but....

Not to mention that Katakuri foresaw Big Father attacking Big mom (Big father is an inanimate object) and foresaw a cake "falling", mind you cakes doesn't have a soul and are fundamentally inanimate objects.

I'd assume Big Father is an animated inanimate object via Devil Fruit powers, based on what I remember reading. Thank you for the cake example, however.

 

[Ryuga21]

Irrc Big Mom cannot add souls into beings that already have a soul. But she can make animals become homies. Does this mean that animals in OP don't have a soul? Thinking about it now is very interesting.

 

[KobsterHope07]

If a Pacifista is part human, a Pacifista is still partially organic, & presumably, has life force, doesn't it? I vaguely remember something about Bartholomew Kuma's influence gradually fading from one, but....

No, they are entirely robotic who have their design based on Kuma

 

[Imaginym]

No, they are entirely robotic who have their design based on Kuma

If they are entirely robotic, why did you say "a cyborg/human weapon"??

Irrc Big Mom cannot add souls into beings that already have a soul. But she can make animals become homies. Does this mean that animals in OP don't have a soul? Thinking about it now is very interesting.

Am I mistaken, or didn't she animate things like clouds?

 

[RazumaHiroki]

Why should he tell everything to Luffy, a headstrong young up-start, who, like many others, seeks to conquer the Grand Line?
& are you saying those "invisible" beings are confirmed as having no Souls?
But ARE there Soulless beings Rayleigh could have reasonably encountered in his travels through the Grand Line?
I don't think that we can just assume something unprecedented simply exists & was

Almost anything is possible in the Grandline, especially if DF users are involved and other things. Considering that DFs are consistently portrayed as being "natural phenomenon", we don't have any reason not to believe that Perona's ghosts aren't real ghosts (except you can see them) but are proven to be Intangible. Since the negative hollow (horror? Or hollow) and those doesn't seem to have a soul.

Or the fact that a crazy M.A.D Scientist is capable of making inanimate objects eat a DF, thus an object gains the power of a DF. Apparently the Mad scientist has advanced technologies from the future (if I recall correctly Corby said 400 years or 500 years, I'll send the scan if you want), subsequently mass produced the Pacifistas. Only Kuma is a cyborg, while the other PX series are based on him, the PX series are robots without a soul, they only serve to hunt down pirates and replace the Shichibukai.


To Rayleigh, nothing is new anything, he and Roger are the only ones who know about the secret of the "World", which strongly implies they know about what happened 700 years ago and literally conquered all islands (Rayleigh wasn't surprised at Brook's appearance).

 

[Imaginym]

Almost anything is possible in the Grandline, especially if DF users are involved and other things. Considering that DFs are consistently portrayed as being "natural phenomenon", we don't have any reason not to believe that Perona's ghosts aren't real ghosts (except you can see them) but are proven to be Intangible. Since the negative hollow (horror? Or hollow) and those doesn't seem to have a soul.

Many would consider a ghost itself a soul. I think that whether or not Rayleigh encountered Perona's DF himself is debatable, I'd say. Aren't DF supposed to be unique?

 

[Ryuga21]

Am I mistaken, or didn't she animate things like clouds?

Animals as well.

 

[RazumaHiroki]

Many would consider a ghost itself a soul. I think that whether or not Rayleigh encountered Perona's DF himself is debatable, I'd say. Aren't DF supposed to be unique?

Not technically. DF users are ultimately "vessels". If the vessel dies, the DF teleports elsewhere (randomly), somewhere in a country or island.

In other words, if you are the user of the Gomu Gomu no mi, and dies at an accident or gets killed by a Magma guy with anger management issues. Someone who's incredibly lucky finds the Gomu Gomu no mi by chance and becomes the new user of the Gomu Gomu no mi.

 

[Imaginym]

Not technically. DF users are ultimately "vessels". If the vessel dies, the DF teleports elsewhere (randomly), somewhere in a country or island.

In other words, you are the user of the Gomu Gomu no mi, and dies at an accident or gets killed by a Magma guy with anger management issues. Someone who's incredibly lucky finds the Gomu Gomu no mi by chance and becomes the new user of the Gomu Gomu no mi.

That wording ("the Gomu Gumu no mi", for one.) still sounds like it's implying there's only one Gomu Gumu no Mi fruit, it just reappears after the current user dies.

Animals as well.

My concern is with animating clouds. Many could readily believing animals have souls.
Clouds are often just bodies of moisture.
If her DF ability requires something have a pre-existing soul to be affected, that would imply clouds in One Piece have souls, no?

 

[RazumaHiroki]

Apparently DF hunters are now a thing in One piece, stares at Blackbeard's crew

 

[RazumaHiroki]

That wording ("the Gomu Gumu no mi", for one.) still sounds like it's implying there's only one Gomu Gumu no Mi fruit, it just reappears after the current user dies

Yep. There exist only one Gomu Gomu no mi, just like every DF as well. If you dies and you are presumably a DF user, the fruit reappears somewhere in the world (completely uneaten tho)

 

[Imaginym]

Yep. There exist only one Gomu Gomu no mi, just like every DF as well. If you dies and you are presumably a DF user, the fruit reappears somewhere in the world (completely uneaten tho)

I'd sure hope it doesn't reappear partially eaten, lol.
But given there is usually only 1 Devil Fruit of each kind, & given how out of the way & impractical Thriller Bark is, I'd be a little surprised if Rayleigh encountered Perona's DF, especially while she was still the user of it.

 

[RazumaHiroki]

I'd sure hope it doesn't reappear partially eaten, lol.
But given there is usually only 1 Devil Fruit of each kind, & given how out of the way & impractical Thriller Bark is, I'd be a little surprised if Rayleigh encountered Perona's DF, especially while she was still the user of it.

Nah. Perona wasn't born when Roger was still a rookie, it's not strange to assume that they met the previous user of Perona's DF. Similarly how they met the previous user of Bartolomeo's DF and Mr.2's DF, as well as many others too. I think the fact that she obtained the fruit means the previous user of her fruit died.

After all, the possibility is still there. Since there isn't a single island left that the Roger's pirates didn't conquered (stealing gold, playing pranks and bullying the gold ol' whitebeard).

 

[RazumaHiroki]

Even an island that was apparently erased by the WG and from all world-history

 

[Ryuga21]

If her DF ability requires something have a pre-existing soul to be affected, that would imply clouds in One Piece have souls, no?

Her ability doesn't require the body to have a pre-existing soul, it actually adds the soul to an inanimated body to animate it. The belief that animals have souls is relative, and metaphysical concepts can have various functions within their own verses than we are generally used to (The "Shadow" in One Piece works as a second soul for example).

But forget it, it's just said that she can't add souls into human beings (Ch 835), and not in all bodies that have souls (Assuming animals have one).

 

[Imaginym]

Nah. Perona wasn't born when Roger was still a rookie, it's not strange to assume that they met the previous user of Perona's DF. Similarly how they met the previous user of Bartolomeo's DF and Mr.2's DF, as well as many others too. I think the fact that she obtained the fruit means the previous user of her fruit died.

After all, the possibility is still there. Since there isn't a single island left that the Roger's pirates didn't conquered (stealing gold, playing pranks and bullying the gold ol' whitebeard).

If you say so. Might be a bit NLF to assume they found/met users of all the fruits, or that even all the fruits had users at the time.

 

[SemiRaedi]

Yes, but it's not specified that they're facing towards one another, right?

Nope

Didn't OP specify that they have prior knowledge? What would be the point of granting prior knowledge if it granted them no knowledge at all?

Mb I forgot

 

[Eminiteable]

I think grace has finished

 

[Imaginym]

Probably has, unless there's a matter of lack of votes/vote difference or some votes were somehow invalidated or such.

 

[Sergeant_Hypocrite]

So we move on now?

 

[Eminiteable]

Yeah

 

[Sergeant_Hypocrite]

Alright then. Match 5!: https://vsbattles.com/threads/high-7-a-tournament-round-1-match-5-akuma-vs-reigen-arataka.122912/

And yet again, don't forget Match 1.: https://vsbattles.com/threads/high-7-a-tournament-round-1-match-1-neinhart-vs-m-bison.122264/