Heroes and Xenoverse speed revisited

[The_Causality]

I mean, a lot of Dark Area Digimon (the Low Tier) also didn't demonstrated anything remotely approaching infinite speed outside of moving in a timeless void (aKa Dark Area) but are actually Infinite.

Although i can be wrong once again.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, aren't they also considerably higher-order entities? I am not well informed about Digimon though.

 

[The_Causality]

Indeed, the higher-order entities scale to the Infinite Speed (and even Immeasurable) but the Low tier is also Infinite, the problem brough the last time was that due to some low tier (like Dabura) scale to Infinite Speed, this can't be a real void/Infinite speed

The same situation exist in other franchise who have currently Infinite speed.

 

[Antoniofer]

Is the same what happened with Kingdom Hearts, people insisted to made characters infinite speed by moving in a nonexistent world, but really is that, within the verse requeriments, having a "strong heart" was enough to perform actions there.

I would have suggested to not standarize "timeless voids", as they do not exist in real life and authors gave the properties they wish to add.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, our instruction page is support to act as a bulwark against inflation of infinite speed ratings at least.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I mean, a lot of Dark Area Digimon (the Low Tier) also didn't demonstrated anything remotely approaching infinite speed outside of moving in a timeless void (aKa Dark Area) but are actually Infinite.

Although i can be wrong once again.

Didn't the DA Digimon get their speed removed?

That said, call Matt. He was the main proponent against this last time. It wasn't me (I know, right?), as I was neutral to agreeing at the time.

 

[The_Causality]

Is the same what happened with Kingdom Hearts, people insisted to made characters infinite speed by moving in a nonexistent world, but really is that, within the verse requeriments, having a "strong heart" was enough to perform actions there.
I would have suggested to not standarize "timeless voids", as they do not exist in real life and authors gave the properties they wish to add.

This is also true though, this site usually treat many abilities or stuff like that due to his own standard, even when the Verse didn't showed things remotely similar this site say.

@Cal really? eh i'am not informed well.

 

[Omegas03]

So what is the conseus here? I guess this got rejected lul.

Btw the statements on the DBH Void seem very consistent to be Type 3, but I am still doubtful. Gotta be neutral with this.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

Since when was there a need to show the characters can do things besides move in timeless voids

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Timeless_Voids_Standards

Staff members, this is your own timeless void standards. Please tell me where these statements do not apply to Dragon Ball.

• The realm should be consistently and reliably described as timeless by knowledgeable characters who can be confirmed not to be lying or bluffing

> The Demon Realm, The Crack of Time, the void in which mechikaboola was sealed in were stated by the god of time to be outside of time multiple times, all across xenoverse and heroes

• The realm should display characteristics a realm without time would be expected to have, such as the lack of a visible passage of time, unless this is Cinematic Time

> There is literally no passage of time in The Crack of Time, The Demon Realm or Mechikabura's imprisonment place. They were completely outside of time. Goku could not affect time with his SSJ4 transformation because time was not present in the demon realm. The time scrolls and the scrolls of eternity do not have the demon realm as part of time.

• Although not necessary per se, and not entirely accurate either, the characters who traverse it being described as "beyond the space-time" or "beyond time" would be supporting evidence

> Literally every relevant demon god has been stated to be "beyond time and space" and "transcended to time". Let me guess, this are "hyperbole" and "taken out of context" despite the characters themselves shown to be able to function in a timeless void?

• Type 3: "True" Voids: Voids that are stated to be timeless and are explicitly shown to be such. They have many properties that would come with timelessness to the extent that it is undeniable they would qualify for Infinite speed. Examples: The Void Beyond in Final Fantasy XIII-2, The Void in League of Legends, and the Dark Area in Digimon.

> Refer to my comments above for statements and propeties

Literally all these statements follow your own standards. Since when did we need to show anything outside the multiple consistent timeless void. The reason you can't see these characters show infinite speed feats is because that can be used to downgrade any verse from infinite speed. How do you even show infinite speed in a video game where you are controlling the characters, much less an arcade game where the entire fight scene is game mechanics outside of trailers.

 

[The_Causality]

This site also has conflictual standards for Infinite Speed, if we choose to not accept those feat as Infinite Speed due to the fact that they "don't look moving at Infinite speed" probably 3/4 of the infinite speed character on this site will no longer have Infinite Speed since they have actually 0 feat of them moving at IS.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Lol, most feats look subjective, if that's the case many things would be downgraded if it were based on looks.

 

[Antoniofer]

Issue is that the character that have infinite speed is due an standard made by us, rarely the verse consider them to have infinite speed (that rating is even more difficult to prove than immeasurable speed).

 

[Antvasima]

Timeless Voids Standards:

"Most series do not acknowledge such a feat as something that would take an infinite amount of speed to accomplish, and it's constantly portrayed as a one-off action occurring for the sake of plot. In that case, the feat is to be discarded as an Outlier or as Plot-Induced Stupidity."

 

[Akreious]

Timeless Voids Standards:
"Most series do not acknowledge such a feat as something that would take an infinite amount of speed to accomplish, and it's constantly portrayed as a one-off action occurring for the sake of plot. In that case, the feat is to be discarded as an Outlier or as Plot-Induced Stupidity."

Does not help your case though?. Dragon Ball consistently portrays it in the same way and with the same statements over and over- it's ceased being a one-off action ocurring for the sake of the plot when it's been a massive plot point not once, but twice. It's not happening for the sake of the plot either, unless you're calling it "The Plot happens for the sake of the Plot"

Your entire argument right now is "We don't think it is" despite the fact that if you did what you're doing to other Infinite-Speed Verses, they too would be downgraded.

 

[Antoniofer]

@Ant, as I said, the problem is not wherever or not the "sealed outside of time" is consistent or not, is more about the standard and how it grants ratings that aren't hinted/suggested within the verse at all (in this case, infinite speed).

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I recall that we were supposed to write in the Timeless Voids Standards page that cases for which such a rating strongly contradicts all other shown instances of speed for the relevant characters, it should be disregarded, but it seems like this was not added. That should preferably be corrected.

 

[The_Causality]

@Ant, as I said, the problem is not wherever or not the "sealed outside of time" is consistent or not, is more about the standard and how it grants ratings that aren't hinted/suggested within the verse at all (in this case, infinite speed).

But doesn't like most of the Infinite speed characters via a timeless void doesn't showed anything at this regard? (like specific characteristic of being able to move into a timeless void) if not, we should make a thread to downgrade a lot of IS characters if necessary but i don't know if what you say is necessary since the timeless void standard page doesnt mention it.

 

[Antoniofer]

I can't talk by all these verses, but if most of them are rated IS by tye same reasons stated here (or from that one KH thread), I would say they must be revised, as having IS is not an stated requeriment to be there.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I am 100% on Antonio's side.

It is dumb on Kingdom Heart's case as well.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I recall that we were supposed to write in the Timeless Voids Standards page that cases for which such a rating strongly contradicts all other shown instances of speed for the relevant characters, it should be disregarded, but it seems like this was not added. That should preferably be corrected.

So would it be fine if we add a mention of this to the Timeless Voids Standards page?

 

[Antoniofer]

Personally, I rather get rid of the Timeless Void Stantards and let knowledgeable users (revised by the staff, naturally) of how these places works within their respective verse, and avoid granting powers and stats never showed in canon.

 

[Antvasima]

My apologies, but I do not think that would be a good idea at all. We used to have much bigger problems with inflation of infinite and immeasurable speed statistics before we established some restrictions.

 

[Antoniofer]

Welp, in the other hand had been [at least] two attemps in upgrading characters to IS by our own standard, so I don't think stuff has changed much; but that is just me, we can always write something in the blog between the words of "characters do not qualify as having infinite speed by simply performing actions in the timeless void, regardless of the type of void, and the verse needs to specify that having infinite speed (or certain speed) is a requeriment to move in within the void".

 

[The_Causality]

we can always write something in the blog between the words of "characters do not qualify as having infinite speed by simply performing actions in the timeless void, regardless of the type of void, and the verse needs to specify that having infinite speed (or certain speed) is a requeriment to move in within the void".

I mean this sentance can also be used to remove the whole timeless void page since the categories of void listed here (type 1, 2 and 3) no longer mean that a character is IS since the type of void not mean much due to the verse's setting of Void for IS.

 

[Antvasima]

@Antoniofer

I really don't think that it is a good idea to get rid of our restrictions entirely, rather than help to clarify or make them even stricter, to solve any problems.

 

[Antoniofer]

Honestly, as the thread has proven, is more like a window to upgrade characters rather than a restriction. But whatever change to avoid this kind of stuff is good I guess, as the staff find more useful.

 

[Antvasima]

People kept giving hundreds of characters that scaled to anybody that had ever been in any type of timeless void infinite or immeasurable speed before we estalished the definition page. I am not going to allow that it is removed. My apologies.

Adding further clarifications and sensible restrictions is fine though.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

I agree with Infinite Speed. If we're really applying the standards shown against Kingdom Hearts to other verses like this, I really don't see why Timeless Voids being infinite should even exist because it was agreed on that thread that the Realm of Darkness was Type 3 but still got rejected.

 

[Antvasima]

We simply need to clarify in the page that infinite speed still has to make logical sense within the context of each verse.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

That's super ambiguous and hardly helps. Honestly, that feels like it's very easy to exploit for a downgrade with that wording. You might as well force the entire narrative to take place in a timeless void if you're going to use wording like that.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

How do you even show infinite speed in a video game where you are controlling the characters, much less an arcade game where the entire fight scene is game mechanics outside of trailers.

So instead of the evidence being wrong, the "context" is inaccurate because of "lack of representation that it takes infinite speed to move in said voids." Someone remind me how without a shadow of a doubt, I can show Heroes having infinite speed on screen, if the entire fight scene in the game is game mechanics and in xenoverse, where I am controlling the characters.

Tell me how infinite speed doesn't make sense, when the feats have been repeated many, many times, and being sealed outside of time and escaping is seen as impossible by Chronoa herself (As shown as when she was utterly shocked Demigra escaped from The Crack of Time).

I 100% agree with Ploz here. It is such an exploit. Literally might as well remove timeless void standards as a whole. Literally the only refutes I have gotten to this is "It doesn't make sense" or "this is dumb", which is rather rude and I find it rather funny that revisions on standards are being made when Heroes fufils an already submitted standard

 

[Akreious]

I've been reading over the against for the past 10 minutes and I have to agree with Zenkaibattery and Ploz. "It doesn't look like it", in a game where the entire story is literally all game mechanics or you control the character- where the entire game where Infinite Speed is demonstratable (The actual fights) is ALSO game mechanics, shouldn't be a thing.

It's an extreme cop-out. We don't allow some abilities and stuff because they're game mechanics and yet we're using game mechanics to "debunk" an upgrade? How and why is that fair at all?

 

[Omegas03]

I am leaning towards agreeing tbh, not a legit debunk has been made to this and it's legit.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I'm finding it hard to agree with the anti-upgrade argument as well. Just doesn't seem like there is enough justification to reject this, to me.

 

[TheSpeedster96]

I agree. The infinite speed standards already has problems, but "clarifying" it for each verse makes it infinitely worse and exploitable.

 

[Ionliosite]

I'm personally amazed of this, but I'll say it: Heroes has all standards needed to be a true void and get infinite speed if a Digimon that has never shown a feat close to FTL has infinite speed, because there are tons of those. The problem isn't the verse, Heroes has consistently shown all standards to be a true void, the problem would on applying our standards, because the argument being used against Heroes applies to many other verses with Infinite speed.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

The problem isn't the verse, Heroes has consistently shown all standards to be a true void, the problem would on applying our standards, because the argument being used against Heroes applies to many other verses with Infinite speed.

^This

The Kingdom Hearts thread basically had this mentality applied to it as well, but this isn't a KH thread so we shouldn't go into that. Point is, there's nothing wrong with the page, it's just people trying to apply it in ways like this or else you're going to affect like literally every other verse on the site.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

Also, just like Dialga and Palkia, Time Breaker Bardock and Mira fought in a torn space-time, IIRC

 

[Bobsican]

I guess we can totally go ahead and do an entire CRT on Timeless Void Standards

 

[The_Causality]

Wait, Kingdom Heart have Infinite speed for the same reason? i thought that it was rejected due to Antonifer's reasoning.

If it was accepted; i don't think we can apply Antonifer's logic here to discard the IS without making a overall CRT about Timeless Void standard since it's against our current settings of IS character.