Hax resistance during versus matchups Continued

[Elizhaa]

This Thread is about Staffs Thread since it was never concluded: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1087383

I wonder if a Character is, for example, 3-D, can destroy or create 4-D constructs like universe shouldn't their Hax be 4-D as well?

I get inspired here because the point about Goku and Jiren have 4-D and attacks and defense

What 'i' am saying is 'goku' and 'jiren' have metaphysical attacks and 'defenses,' but aren't themselves metaphysical. Think of it like this, a sheet of paper is 2-D, and you are a 3-D being can do whatever you want 'to to' that piece of paper, as the paper is 2-D and can't resist you.

I don't think a 4-D being that much different from the 4-D universe here. Also, even Higher-Dimensional Existence doesn't claim Lower-D resistance.

If Having metaphysical attacks and defenses count as Hax, I think it is cherry picky to claim only a few abilities work when at least they can fully affect a 4-D constructs here

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Unless said destruction/creation was done via powers similar to the ones they use for hax, the answer is no. Being able to punch a 4-D being doesn't make you able to, say, affect 4-D matter with a totally different power. This is even more the case for strong reality warpers who might see lower dimensional stuff as fiction or something similar.

Not sure why Goku and Jiren are even examples. They have no Tier 2 feats on their own, they just scale to a Tier 2 individual. Not even via fighting it mind you.

 

[Elizhaa]

Saikou, their powers and hax are just from their energies and normal usage at Tier 2 or above. The abilities are just called because here on the wiki as Hax are defined as abilities that ignored durability.

 

[Antvasima]

Saikou seems to make sense to me.

 

[A6colute]

Saikou The Lewd King is right.

 

[Dark649]

I also agree with Saikou.

 

[Elizhaa]

This text also something is written by Ultima reality that I agree: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2760052

The Hausdorff dimension
One of the main justifications for Higher Dimensions equaling greater orders of Infinities is the use of the concept of a Hausdorff dimension, which, according to our own pages elaborating on this aspect of the Tiering System, proposes that each Higher Dimension is uncountably infinitely greater than a lower one.

However, Felix Hausdorff's formalisms are extremely specific, and assuming all Higher-Dimensions in fiction need to abide to them is frankly an absurd idea that borders on the pseudo-intellectual.

To start with, Hausdorff Dimensions are simply a way of measuring Fractal Sets and Topologies, which usually have non-integer Dimensions and thus can't be measured using regular Euclidean Geometry and all that junk. They have absolutely no relation to Spatio-Temporal Dimensions that are used in Cosmological Models or Manifolds, which is generally what we use when dealing with the rating of fictional verses.

Yes, theoretically you can obviously model a Formalism based on Hausdorff Fractal Topologies, but, as I stated above, it would be an insanely specific framework that is unseen in any notable cosmology, both in Fiction and in Theoretical Physics, and once again, acting like every single Higher-Dimension needs to act like a Hausdorff Dimension is a fine example of Cherry-Picking.

Furthermore, even stating that Hausdorff's Formalisms establish that Higher Dimensions are infinitely superior to lower ones is erroneous anyway. It effectively argues that due to the existence of Non-Integer Dimensions under Fractal Geometry, and the fact you can infinitely extend any subsets and decimals between any two Integer, the distance between 1 and 2 is Uncountably Infinite, something which, as I keep repeating, is not used in any Manifold or Model describing our Universe / Multiverse, and is generally inapplicable to them unless you model a very specific framework.

So, no, Hausdorff Fractal Geometry doesn't state that Higher Dimensions are infinitely greater than lower ones, it just uses Dimensions as a way of measuring the complexity of shapes and nothing more.

Dimensional Tiering in a more General Sense
Now that all of the details about the flaws present in Dimensional Tiering are out of the way, I'd like to ramble a bit on why the Logic and Reasons behind our usage of it are fairly erroneous and, to put it bluntly, an extreme example of cherry-picking and borderline favoritism towards certain works of fiction.

Yes, I am perfectly aware that this Community uses Dimensions as they are (supposedly) defined within Fictional Works such as DC Comics, Umineko no Naku Koro Ni and the Cthulhu Mythos. In fact, some of the Staff Members even stated in the past that the upper bounds of our Tiering System are basically a combination of Umineko and Lovecraft's works, and at first glance, this seems understandable and even justifiable, to a certain extent.

However, in my opinion, this is what constitutes one of the most severe flaws of Dimensional Tiering.

In effect, it is choosing to apply to all of fiction an incredibly specific and erroneous interpretation of how Dimensions are supposed to work, which itself only applies to the cosmologies of a set of specific franchises. Like, I said, this is borderline favortism towards these franchises, and I see absolutely no reason to put the way they treat Dimensions within their Cosmologies as an objective way to Tier all of fiction, rather than a more realistic approach to the concept, which is far more general, unitary and unattached to any specific Cosmology of any specific work of fiction.

In addition, I am fairly sure that Dimensions being used as Higher Infinities in any of those Franchises is a huge misconception. For example, Umineko simply uses Dimensions as a metaphor to describe an hierarchy of Reality-Fiction Layers which can themselves contain any amount of space-time dimensions.

Furthermore, the very concept of Dimensional Tiering is giving our visitors the wrong idea about Dimensions; what we are doing now is making pseudo-intellectual trite and forgetting that VSBW has the responsibility of being truthful and placing accuracy above all. What I am pointing at is expressed very well on our own Tiering System page, which was the following notes written in it:

"

Logically, a lower-dimensional character should at best have as much ability to affect a higher-dimensional character as a drawing on a paper has to punch you in the face. However, mostly due to lack of story logic, mere 3-dimensional characters sometimes triumph over forces that are degrees of beyond countable infinity above them. It is usually due to Plot-Induced Stupidity.

"

"

There are many different versions of the concept of higher-dimensional entities, each depending on the fictional rules that the author of that particular franchise has laid out. Hence, it is impossible to say that higher-dimensional characters can always beat lower dimensional ones within fiction. This, however, does not invalidate the system itself. It simply means that the author in question does not particularly care about logical coherence, or does not understand the full implications of the terms that he or she is using.

"

Not only are the last two paragraphs extremely self-contradicting, but they are effectively stating that certain Authors are idiots who don't know what Dimensions are just because their Cosmologies and Interpretations aren't aligned to the Cosmology of completely disparate fictional settings.

So, as I keep saying, (for the time being at least) our Wiki should use a simple, unanimous and realistic system that can apply to all fictional verses, rather than specific ones that happen to be popular enough to have great influence on this wiki.

 

[Agnaa]

I disagree with that quoted part strongly, with the response I made in that thread, and DontTalk's response to the Hausdorff stuff here.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Nedge Sooo what's your point?

You seem to be bringing up a problem in how the wiki treats dimensions,and what criterias need to be fulfilled for higher dimensional feats to be considered legitimate.

But that doesn't really matter here if the topic is about a character's other abilities working on the same dimensional level as their AP rather than the feat of affecting things up to a certain dimensional level being legit.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I too agree with Saikou.

 

[Elizhaa]

Unless said destruction/creation was done via powers similar to the ones they use for hax, the answer is no.

> I guess by this logic those who do the feats with their causual energy attack scaled.

Being able to punch a 4-D being doesn't make you able to, say, affect 4-D matter with a totally different power.

> The irony of the matter is that "Being able to punch a 4-D being" is technically view has been able to affect 4-D being with hax in most thread

Not sure why Goku and Jiren are even examples. They have no Tier 2 feats on their own, they just scale to a Tier 2 individual. Not even via fighting it mind you.


> So, I guess if the Tier 2 feat mentioned in the first point above are their own and don't involved Powerscaling; then it is legit the a character can affect 4-D being.

 

[Elizhaa]

bump

 

[Antoniofer]

I think that in order to hit someone that fades into the forth dimension one just need dimensional/spatial attacks, being independent of AP.