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Analyzing Dimensional Tiering (Staff only)

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Ultima_Reality

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STAFF DISCUSSION

Introductio
Hello everyone, hope you're doing well.

As a few users I spoke with off-site may know, I have been increasingly unsatisfied with the current state of our Tiering System, and thus, have been making a Thread to tackle what is certainly the most controversial aspect of it: Dimensional Tiering.

But before discussing this subject, I'd like to note that I am not really trying to dismantle the System, nor do I want deviate too much from it. In fact, most of the Tiers are going to be basically the same even after the revisions I am proposing, save for some name alterations and changes in Tier 11. So I would appreciate if the main subject of this Thread can be discussed in a calm and civilized way, with no shitstorms or anything of the sort.

Furthermore, I would like to give credits to Aeyu, since she assisted a lot with this Thread and basically taught me about most of this stuff I previously knew shit about.

Now, as Jack the Ripper would say: Vamos por partes.

dimenshunal tayeri
Firstly, it is extremely important to note that Dimensions are just Axis of Movement, nothing more and nothing less. Higher Dimensions are not layers or higher levels of existence in any way, they are just additional directions through which individual shapes and entities can displace themselves in. I believe this is explained fairly decently in the Dimensional Tiering page, so I am not going to waste time or space going in-depth about it here.

Secondly, it is important to note that within Mathematics, Dimensions are used to denote the number of values needed to specify the position of a point within some abstract space. A Cartesian Plane, for example, is 2-dimensional because two values are needed to specify the location of some element inside it (x, y), and a Space is 3-dimensional because three values (x, y, z) are needed to do that. You could as well say that an n-dimensional space is the set of all n-tuples of numbers that can possibly be used to indicate a position within said Space.

Now, with these two things in mind, the problems with Dimensional Tiering become incresingly obvious.

To start with the basics, let's see what the Attack Potency page has to say about the levels of energy exerted by Higher-Dimensional Beings:

Higher Dimensional levels: These levels are not listed because they are not restricted to the same parameters for energy requirement. The energy for such levels cannot be calculated.
I will simply start by saying that this notion is completely wrong even when going by our basic understanding of physics: This is due to the fact that Energy is a Scalar Quantity, which means that it is described by only one value, its magnitude, and thus does not depend on direction or displacement of any kind.

A Vector Quantity, on the other hand, is a quantity that is dependent not only on its Magnitude, but on its Direction and Displacement as well. A good example of the distinction between Scalar and Vectors would be the concepts of Speed and Velocity - Speed, as it is commonly defined, is the rating which is used to describe how fast an object is moving, or in more formal terms, the rate in which an object covers distance: this definition is a constant regardless of motion and direction, as it is only defined by Magnitude and nothing else, a car moving at 70 km/h will have the same Speed regardless if it is heading towards North, West or East. Thus, Speed is a Scalar Quantity, one that never changes regardless of directions.

Velocity, on the other hand, is the rating in which an object changes position, that is, it defines not only the rate in which an object covers distance, but also the direction in which it is doing so. Indeed, to shamelessly quote Wikipedia on this:

If a car is said to travel at 60 km/h, its speed has been specified. However, if the car is said to move at 60 km/h to the north, its velocity has now been specified.
The big difference can be noticed when we consider movement around a circle. When something moves in a circular path (at a constant speed, see above) and returns to its starting point, its average velocity is zero but its average speed is found by dividing the circumference of the circle by the time taken to move around the circle. This is because the average velocity is calculated by only considering the displacement between the starting and the end points while the average speed considers only the total distance traveled.
Now that the difference between Scalar and Vector Quantities is established, it is fairly easy to see where I am going with this, as I mentioned earlier: Energy is a Scalar Quantity, and so are Mass and Speed, the quantities which are used to measure Energy, and by extension, Power, in the first place. Hence, Energy is a dimensionless concept, and is fully independent from direction or displacement, and thus, from Dimensionality as a whole, meaning a punch of 10 joules will still have a value of 10 joules regardless if it is done by a being of Dimension 3, 5 or 100.

Now with this out of the way, It is also important to tackle the simple fact that there is nothing inherently cosmic or godly about Higher-Dimensional Beings. Under ordinary circumstances, they would in no way be what is described in the Higher-Dimensional Existence page.

As a matter of fact, Higher-Dimensional Beings would abide by the same physical and mathematical principles as we do, as stated by actual mathematicians. The fundamental laws of physics are inherently dimensionless, and they would effectively be the same in Higher-Dimensions going by a mathematical, more fundamental sense, they would only operate differently in a physical sense, and that would be due to the additional axis of movement inherent to the Higher-Dimensional Space; say, the newtonian law of gravitation would be the same mathematical principle within a Universe of 4 dimensions, but the way it functions would appear different because, for example, Orbits work differently in more than 3 dimensions.

Furthermore, even the idea of Higher-Dimensional Creatures being always strictly bigger than lower-dimensional ones is faulty at best. Sure, they can potentially be much bigger than us, but this is not because of their Dimensional Parameters make them automatically larger by an infinite amount, but because said parameters allow their mass to extend into different directions entirely which are inaccesible to lower beings.

Additionally, if beings with more than three dimensions were really Infinite in size and scope, and capable of exerting more than infinite energy, their 3-dimensional parameters would also have to be Infinite, which obviously wouldn't always be the case, since we don't have infinitely big 2-dimensional parameters, so the argument that any non-zero size within a Higher Dimension would be uncountably infinite in a lower one simply doesn't hold up.

Now, one may propose the argument that, due to the fact that even an infinite amount of 2-dimensional objects and shapes wouldn't be able to construct a 3-dimensional one, then the difference between Dimensions 2 and 3 must be uncountably infinite. That is, an individual could stack up and combine any amount of 2-D objects, but they would never really be as large as a 3-D one and their collective size would always be 0 in relation to it. By logical extension, this can be applied to any shapes and objects, no matter their number of dimensions.

However, I would like to note that this has little relation to Size per se; rather, it is due to the fact that the 3-dimensional object extends into another direction of space entirely, which the set of 2-dimensional objects can't reach because they lack the parameters needed to do so.

Remember, Dimensions are merely axis of space-time movement, and under Coordinate Spaces the above argument falls apart even much more clearly - Suppose that we have a Coordinate System with Three Axes (System A):

X = 999

Y = 999

Z = 999

W = 0

And then we have another one, comprised of Four Axes (System B):

X = 1

Y = 1

Z = 1

W = 1

Obviously, System B can never be reached by the System A, but this is simply because it has a greater value on the W axis, which the latter System lacks entirely. It doesn't translate to "lol W axis is infinitely more bigger than (999,999,999)", rather, it translates to "W axis is to the left and even if you go infinitely up and up and up it'll never reach it".

Even then, you can just increase the value of the W axis to 1 in System A. You don't need to accelerate the parameters X, Y and Z to infinity to try and make W increase to 1.

In layman's terms, what the argument I detailed above (and Dimensional Tiering as a whole, really) proposes is analogous to saying that North is infinitely far away from West, since you can walk infinitely in the direction of the former and never reach the latter, when this only happens because West is positioned in another direction relative to North, and you can simply take a step in its direction and reach it with no problem whatsoever.

Additionally, we are actually capable of calculating Hypervolume. This is even more evidence that Dimensions don't represent orders of infinity even in a geometrical sense.

The Hausdorff dimension
One of the main justifications for Higher Dimensions equaling greater orders of Infinities is the use of the concept of a Hausdorff dimension, which, according to our own pages elaborating on this aspect of the Tiering System, proposes that each Higher Dimension is uncountably infinitely greater than a lower one.

However, Felix Hausdorff's formalisms are extremely specific, and assuming all Higher-Dimensions in fiction need to abide to them is frankly an absurd idea that borders on the pseudo-intellectual.

To start with, Hausdorff Dimensions are simply a way of measuring Fractal Sets and Topologies, which usually have non-integer Dimensions and thus can't be measured using regular Euclidean Geometry and all that junk. They have absolutely no relation to Spatio-Temporal Dimensions that are used in Cosmological Models or Manifolds, which is generally what we use when dealing with the rating of fictional verses.

Yes, theoretically you can obviously model a Formalism based on Hausdorff Fractal Topologies, but, as I stated above, it would be an insanely specific framework that is unseen in any notable cosmology, both in Fiction and in Theoretical Physics, and once again, acting like every single Higher-Dimension needs to act like a Hausdorff Dimension is a fine example of Cherry-Picking.

Furthermore, even stating that Hausdorff's Formalisms establish that Higher Dimensions are infinitely superior to lower ones is erroneous anyway. It effectively argues that due to the existence of Non-Integer Dimensions under Fractal Geometry, and the fact you can infinitely extend any subsets and decimals between any two Integer, the distance between 1 and 2 is Uncountably Infinite, something which, as I keep repeating, is not used in any Manifold or Model describing our Universe / Multiverse, and is generally inapplicable to them unless you model a very specific framework.

So, no, Hausdorff Fractal Geometry doesn't state that Higher Dimensions are infinitely greater than lower ones, it just uses Dimensions as a way of measuring the complexity of shapes and nothing more.

Dimensional Tiering in a more General Sense
Now that all of the details about the flaws present in Dimensional Tiering are out of the way, I'd like to ramble a bit on why the Logic and Reasons behind our usage of it are fairly erroneous and, to put it bluntly, an extreme example of cherry-picking and borderline favoritism towards certain works of fiction.

Yes, I am perfectly aware that this Community uses Dimensions as they are (supposedly) defined within Fictional Works such as DC Comics, Umineko no Naku Koro Ni and the Cthulhu Mythos. In fact, some of the Staff Members even stated in the past that the upper bounds of our Tiering System are basically a combination of Umineko and Lovecraft's works, and at first glance, this seems understandable and even justifiable, to a certain extent.

However, in my opinion, this is what constitutes one of the most severe flaws of Dimensional Tiering.

In effect, it is choosing to apply to all of fiction an incredibly specific and erroneous interpretation of how Dimensions are supposed to work, which itself only applies to the cosmologies of a set of specific franchises. Like, I said, this is borderline favortism towards these franchises, and I see absolutely no reason to put the way they treat Dimensions within their Cosmologies as an objective way to Tier all of fiction, rather than a more realistic approach to the concept, which is far more general, unitary and unattached to any specific Cosmology of any specific work of fiction.

In addition, I am fairly sure that Dimensions being used as Higher Infinities in any of those Franchises is a huge misconception. For example, Umineko simply uses Dimensions as a metaphor to describe an hierarchy of Reality-Fiction Layers which can themselves contain any amount of space-time dimensions.

Furthermore, the very concept of Dimensional Tiering is giving our visitors the wrong idea about Dimensions; what we are doing now is making pseudo-intellectual trite and forgetting that VSBW has the responsibility of being truthful and placing accuracy above all. What I am pointing at is expressed very well on our own Tiering System page, which was the following notes written in it:

Logically, a lower-dimensional character should at best have as much ability to affect a higher-dimensional character as a drawing on a paper has to punch you in the face. However, mostly due to lack of story logic, mere 3-dimensional characters sometimes triumph over forces that are degrees of beyond countable infinity above them. It is usually due to Plot-Induced Stupidity.
There are many different versions of the concept of higher-dimensional entities, each depending on the fictional rules that the author of that particular franchise has laid out. Hence, it is impossible to say that higher-dimensional characters can always beat lower dimensional ones within fiction.
This, however, does not invalidate the system itself. It simply means that the author in question does not particularly care about logical coherence, or does not understand the full implications of the terms that he or she is using.
Not only are the last two paragraphs extremely self-contradicting, but they are effectively stating that certain Authors are idiots who don't know what Dimensions are just because their Cosmologies and Interpretations aren't aligned to the Cosmology of completely disparate fictional settings.

So, as I keep saying, (for the time being at least) our Wiki should use a simple, unanimous and realistic system that can apply to all fictional verses, rather than specific ones that happen to be popular enough to have great influence on this wiki.

Proposals
However, as I clarified in the beginning of this Thread, my intention here isn't to completely change the Tiering System, so my proposals can be summed up to:

  • Higher-Dimensionality by itself should not warrant a higher tier, unless the Verse in question specifies that Higher Dimensional Beings are qualitatively superior to lower ones, as assuming any 11-D being is capable of destroying / affecting an entire 11-D Multiverse is really the same thing as assuming any 3-D being can affect the entirety of a structure equivalent to our (un)observable Universe in scope. Therefore, if a Higher-Dimensional Being has no feats or showings other than being Higher-Dimensional, and no further context as to the nature of Dimensions within their setting is given, they should be put at 'Unknow'.
  • However, if said Higher-Dimensional Being is actually shown to be capable of affecting and manipulating phenomena / structures on their level of existence, then an appropriate Tiering can be given to them (i.e a Cosmic Entity who embodies the totality of an 11-D Multiverse would be High 1-C, so too would a being who created a Multiverse of this scale of complexity)
  • For High 2-A and above, instead of Hausdorff Fractal Geometry that has absolutely no relation to Spatio-Temporal Dimensions as they are applied to Manifolds and regular Cosmologies, I suggest we use Brane Cosmology, a model wherein our entire Universe is part of a Higher-Dimensional Membrane whose dimensional complexity can vary, which is itself contained inside a greater "Bulk". It is actually a far easier and more reasonable alternative, and isn't as convoluted and overly technical as arguing the distance between 1 and 2 is infinite because of Non-Integer Dimensions
 
Why have dimensions when you can have comprehensibility

Okay, legit, I have no comments to really make, since I'm not really proficient in dimensions and I've gotten really tired of them in a general sense with a whole lot of things, so I'll let other people tear out each other's throats.
 
God ******* damnit. I've had long disagreements with Aeyu about this, a snipppet of which you can find here and here.

Needless to say I strongly disagree and this is based off gross misunderstandings of physics and why we use dimensional tiering. I'll type up a response to specific points soon.
 
I also like this, a 4D being just means that can move one additional dimension of what we normally do, ignoring 3D objects in the same way we ignore 2D objects, no destruction of time continum incolved.
 
Also people, Ultima is not trying to change the whole system, just a few justifications.

Read the proposals section of the OP if you want the TL;DR version of things.
 
I'll say this: You posting this at this specific time was not the best idea.
 
Speaking from experience, posting this at a time Ant has likely gone to bed and the other bureaucrats aren't around is not a good idea. Every time I've done so it backfired.
 
Ultima Reality said:
To start with the basics, let's see what the Attack Potency page has to say about the levels of energy exerted by Higher-Dimensional Beings:
I feel like looking at things from this way would end up ignoring some hidden part of the physics where size, and from that how higher-D beings have infinitely more of it from a lower-D perspective, comes into play with these equations. I'm not a physicist so I can't conclusively say size does matter, but I'm not sure if everything related to power has been checked for dimensionality.

Ultima Reality said:
Furthermore, even the idea of Higher-Dimensional Creatures being always strictly bigger than lower-dimensional ones is faulty at best. Sure, they can potentially be much bigger than us, but this is not because of their Dimensional Parameters make them automatically larger by an infinite amount, but because said parameters allow their mass to extend into different directions entirely which are inaccesible to lower beings.

Additionally, if beings with more than three dimensions were really Infinite in size and scope, and capable of exerting more than infinite energy, their 3-dimensional parameters would also have to be Infinite, which obviously wouldn't always be the case, since we don't have infinitely big 2-dimensional parameters, so the argument that any non-zero size within a Higher Dimension would be uncountably infinite in a lower one simply doesn't hold up.
Yes, and this extending into different dimensions means you need a different ruler to try to even measure their size.

If you try to measure a 3d cube's size in area (separate from surface area), it's a lost cause; the cube has infinite size in area. While every 2d object has finite area, every 3d object has infinite area. Going the other way too, every 3d object has finite volume, but every 2d object has 0 volume.

To your second paragraph, and object doesn't need to be infinitely large in every dimension to be infinitely large. A higher-dimensional being could be the same size as a human in three dimensions, but infinitely larger in one dimension. Multiplying from zero to a finite number is an infinitely large increase.

Ultima Reality said:
Now, one may propose the argument that, due to the fact that even an infinite amount of 2-dimensional objects and shapes wouldn't be able to construct a 3-dimensional one, then the difference between Dimensions 2 and 3 must be uncountably infinite. That is, an individual could stack up and combine any amount of 2-D objects, but they would never really be as large as a 3-D one and their collective size would always be 0 in relation to it. By logical extension, this can be applied to any shapes and objects, no matter their number of dimensions.

However, I would like to note that this has little relation to Size per se; rather, it is due to the fact that the 3-dimensional object extends into another direction of space entirely, which the set of 2-dimensional objects can't reach because they lack the parameters needed to do so.

Remember, Dimensions are merely axis of space-time movement, and under Coordinate Spaces the above argument falls apart even much more clearly - Suppose that we have a Coordinate System with Three Axes (System A):

X = 999

Y = 999

Z = 999

W = 0

And then we have another one, comprised of Four Axes (System B):

X = 1

Y = 1

Z = 1

W = 1

Obviously, System B can never be reached by the System A, but this is simply because it has a greater value on the W axis, which the latter System lacks entirely. It doesn't translate to "lol W axis is infinitely more bigger than (999,999,999)", rather, it translates to "W axis is to the left and even if you go infinitely up and up and up it'll never reach it".
It translates to a W axis of 1 is infinitely bigger than a W axis of 0. There is no finite number you can multiple 0 by to get it to 1, or to even get any number other than 0.

Ultima Reality said:
Even then, you can just increase the value of the W axis to 1 in System A. You don't need to accelerate the parameters X, Y and Z to infinity to try and make W increase to 1.
It's not "just increasing the value of the W axis to 1", that's not scaling up the original object, that's creating a whole new object with a different value there.

To go from X = 3 to X = 6 you scale it up by stretching it by a factor of 2, so an object with length X = 6 is twice as large as an object with length X = 3. You cannot stretch something with W = 0 to W = 1, because W = 1 is infinitely larger than W = 0.

And of course you don't need to stretch X, Y, and Z to infinity to increase W, that's a pretty dumb idea.

Ultima Reality said:
In layman's terms, what the argument I detailed above (and Dimensional Tiering as a whole, really) proposes is analogous to saying that North is infinitely far away from West, since you can walk infinitely in the direction of the former and never reach the latter, when this only happens because West is positioned in another direction relative to North, and you can simply take a step in its direction and reach it with no problem whatsoever.
Walking and turning is completely disanalagous to having actual physical size in a higher dimension. I would never tell you that W = 1 is an infinitely far distance away from W = 0, it's only 1 unit away, but for an object of size W = 0, an object of size W = 1 is infinitely larger in comparison.

Ultima Reality said:
Additionally, we are actually capable of calculating Hypervolume. This is even more evidence that Dimensions don't represent orders of infinity even in a geometrical sense.
We can calculate hypervolume, obviously, but it's different to volume. It is a different measuring stick, because if we tried measuring it by volume we'd find out that 4d objects are infinitely large.

(I'm not familiar with Hausdorff dimensions so I won't respond to that part)

(I'm not interested in the philosophy of why it was chosen either, I'm only interested in its validity, so I won't respond to that part)

Since I disagree that Dimensional Tiering is wrong, I disagree with the proposals.
 
TriforcePower1 said:
Quick question: Is Ultima saying that Lower Ds can now normally interact with Higher Ds?
Yes, unless those Higher-Ds are from a verse where Higher-Dimensions are qualitatively superior to lower ones.

Also please, you and everyone else, please stop derailing with posts that aren't really needed/relevant. Take it to chat/someone's wall.
 
TriforcePower1 said:
Quick question: Is Ultima saying that Lower Ds can now normally interact with Higher Ds?
A 4D could interact with a 3D being, but not necessary the otherway around since 4D ca ignore 3D beings in the same way we ignore 2D objects.
 
TriforcePower1 said:
Quick question: Is Ultima saying that Lower Ds can now normally interact with Higher Ds?
If a 4D being is directly aligned with a 3D being in the same axis as the 3D being, then by definition and basic logic, the 3D being can unarguably interact with the 4D being.
 
A 4D could interact with a 3D being, but not necessary the otherway around since 4D ca ignore 3D beings in the same way we ignore 2D objects.

Okay, that would have been the only thing I'd have disagreed with. I completely agree with the OP then.
 
Sera EX said:
Speaking from experience, posting this at a time Ant has likely gone to bed and the other bureaucrats aren't around is not a good idea. Every time I've done so it backfired.
Yes. I am not particularly happy about the timing for this, especially given Aeyu's involvement, who was permanently banned for very good reasons.

I am currently half-asleep, and would have much preferred if you had done as our regulations require and had approached the bureaucrats in private about this before causing a possibly coordinated massive uproar.

In addition, I am extremely overworked to the point of extreme exhaustion in general, due to trying to keep this wiki from falling apart into chaos as usual, so I do not have the time and energy to properly deal with this issue, which was suddenly rushed in a very disrespectful manner.

That said, if all that is proposed is to slightly adjust the system to not allow any higher-dimensional being whose demonstrations of power contradicts it to reach massively high tiers, we already do that.

In any case, I will close this thread. It should have been discussed slowly in private with all the bureaucrats before it was proposed, and I am ridiculously overworked doing a workload likely comparable to half of the staff combined already. It should not be reopened until we have evaluated it in a slow and private, rather than severely rushed and public pace.

Like it or not, these types of issues should be thoroughly evaluated by the bureaucrats and the consultants before going public.
 
This seems too soon.

So, any idea on when the thread will be re-opened again?
 
To be fair, Prom is still up and about so I'm sure things'll be fine. The admins are pretty trustworthy themselves after all.
 
I think you're overreacting, Ant. This is a pretty simple suggestion here, despite how long the thread is.

"Higher-Dimensionality by itself should not warrant a higher tier, unless the Verse in question specifies that Higher Dimensional Beings are qualitatively superior to lower ones"

This is reasonable and is already applied in some cases.

I'm not exactly well-versed on all this jargon so I can't judge the rest but it's not changing the foundation of our system.
 
Overlord775 said:
Ultima Reality said:
>Staff Discussio
>Tries to change the way a large part of wiki works
>Doesn't allows 99% of all users to have a word

Evil doens't even being to describe this
Rude! :p

Anyway, seriously speaking... In short: Treat each instance as their own thing, correct? And assume by default that the changes currently proposed is the standard model for fiction overall. While I have my doubts about the scientific accuracy, since we have no way of actually verifying any of this, it is the current, most up-to-date-of-physics-as-we-understand-them, correct

And then there is, as an example, Umineko and Lovecraft that treats the higher dimensions as a qualitatively superior thing in all aspects and weirder things. This isn't going to change their actual tiers as I understand it, it is just that we aren't going by the assumption that as soon as a 'verse mentions a higher dimensional entity, we aren't immediately going to jump to the conclusion that they can destroy a 5D multiverse or what have you.

I am onboard with that.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Don't be apocalyptic, Ant. People are discussing the issue peacefully here and there is absolutely no need to close this.
I don't think Ant's issue is whether it's peaceful or not, but that he wants such major changes to go through bureaucrats first.
 
I sympathize with Ant's words but honestly, doesn't seem to be too much of a hitch.

I mean, this doesn't affect anything major now, does it?
 
KLOL506 said:
I sympathize with Ant's words but honestly, doesn't seem to be too much of a hitch.

I mean, this doesn't affect anything major now, does it?
It means downgrading dozens (possibly hundreds?) of verses.
 
I just want to point out a thing

A 2-D object only has weight and lenght, but not any height, so it's area and mass are thus 0.

So it wouldn't have any KE, so making it infinitielly weaker than anything 3-D, which has mass.

and this should be similar for other dimensinal jumps.
 
"That said, if all that is proposed is to slightly adjust the system to not allow any higher-dimensional being whose demonstrations of power contradicts it to reach massively high tiers, we already do that."

Ant is right about this particularly. If a character is stated to be higher-dimensional yet it's contradicted by their showings, they aren't treated as being higher-dimensional. Wyrm for example.
 
Is anything below High 2-A affected? If not, well that means less work to carry out.

After all, it just seems like now you'll only need solid evidence to prove higher-dimensional tiers.
 
Promestein said:
I think you're overreacting, Ant. This is a pretty simple suggestion here, despite how long the thread is.

"Higher-Dimensionality by itself should not warrant a higher tier, unless the Verse in question specifies that Higher Dimensional Beings are qualitatively superior to lower ones"

This is reasonable and is already applied in some cases.

I'm not exactly well-versed on all this jargon so I can't judge the rest but it's not changing the foundation of our system.
Yes, like I mentioned, I do not mind this principle in itself, as we already try to apply it. What I mind is that it was suddenly rushed out in public, in a coordinated "let's all quickly approve this" manner right as everybody knew that I had just gone to bed and usually sleeps. It is both strongly against our regulations to not talk with all the bureaucrats in private first to get their approval, and extremely disrespectful given everything that I have done to build and maintain this community from the ground up.
 
You know, it would be nice if I could answer Agnaa's post without having my own reply buried by a hundred messages that are either one-word posts or things that are completely parallel to the topics being tacked at the moment. I don't know about you guys, but I personally want this Thread to run smoothly, and not become a clusterfucked mess of mostly unrelated posts.

so, ye
 
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
"That said, if all that is proposed is to slightly adjust the system to not allow any higher-dimensional being whose demonstrations of power contradicts it to reach massively high tiers, we already do that."

Ant is right about this particularly. If a character is stated to be higher-dimensional yet it's contradicted by their showings, they aren't treated as being higher-dimensional. Wyrm for example.
Yes but this is changing it from "They're higher-D-tier unless it's contradicted" to "They're only a higher tier if the verse gives higher-D beings qualitative superiority"

@KLOL Maybe some characters in the tier 2 range that are there from 4D statements would be downgraded.
 
That's not how it's going, Ant. It's not disrespectful or wrong to suggest something publicly to get public opinion; it's better to be transparent. None of this was a slight against you or anyone else, and I knew this would be happening sooner or later, personally, and the only reason I didn't talk about it before is because it's... really not a big deal?

I don't really care if we close it or not if it's gonna be discussed privately, but transparency is a good thing. This will effect a lot of verses so it's best if people know about it.
 
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