KaydeeX
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This is head canon because the said speed "amp" is pointing toward a statement in the databook.
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Happy New Year From Kishimoto
- Thread starter Testarossa002
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Godernet
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I can definitely understand why you have this stance.
imo there's less headcanon at play with just taking the SOL statement at face value.
And Zetsu does say verbatim: "The Speed of Lightning is 1000th of a second...it's faster than sound!" before the Jutsu was even cast. So his statement doesn't really support either side of the argument unless we say Kirin is just a regular lightning bolt.
I personally feel like there's much more evidence for a solid or "likely SOL" rating for Kirin but if there are others that are also this strongly opposed "Possibly SOL" works too.
As long as we are not completely disregarding a statement without any definitive counters arguments, just because.
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The fact that people are arguing "Kirin isn't natural lightning" is starting to make me think they haven't read the manga.
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Panache_x
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Comments like this should be restricted here. You're making the thread unnecessarily more lengthy than it should be. Post something useful or don't.
The whole Premise of the thread addresses what you are referencing.
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If we can't even agree on the fundamentals on what the Jutsu is, then it's hard to see a way to make progress here.
Panache_x
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Your or any other's inability to agree despite being unable to counter the Logicality presented doesn't objectively halt progress.
Yet to be refuted.
Progress won't be denied due to Subjectivity or Incredulity. It shouldn't be an avenue to try and close the thread prematurely.
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I have no intention of closing the thread. I've given my evaluation and if you want, you're welcome to seek out additional staff input.
As far as I'm concerned, all of those points have been refuted earlier in the thread.
As far as I'm concerned, all of those points have been refuted earlier in the thread.
Godernet
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Most of us agree with at least a possible rating. The only people firmly opposed are you and Tempest and neither of you has brought up any arguments that haven't already been refuted(and have yet to be countered.)
If you have something substantial that debunks/counters the SOL Kirin please share.
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Panache_x
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None has been refuted. Avoid baseless claims.
Your evaluations have all been addressed and I personally saw to it that they were countered.
So practically, your disagreement has been refuted. I think you're done here. Bye
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LOL, bye then. As I said, feel free to get more staff input.
Godernet
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Can you point me to your refutations then so that we can go over them?
I personally care more that the argument is consistent rather than winning an argument with you. It's pointless since your mind is made up.
But I would like to make sure I didn't miss an argument that could change things.
You don't have to argue your side anymore if you don't want to.
Testarossa002
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Feel free to provide your evidence of "natural lightning" having tier 7 potency
Throw in another for "natural lightning" being in the shape of any animal
narutosage15
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What’s to say the missiles don’t have planetary level AP? Or they move at ftl+ speed?
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Wouldn't kishimoto the author who understands/wrote and understand the abilities >>>>zetus who doesn't really know anything about Kirin apart for" it is made up from lightning"! Again why would kishimoto specifically use SOL especially when he possibly knows the speed of lightning!
In all honesty Base of the lore of the show
and this a direct non hyperbolic statement from kishimoto
Don't u guys think we should take the direct statement from the author instead!!
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Send a scan of Kirin being stated to be imbued with chakra
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I’m dead
Panache_x
Username Only- 395
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0 Debating Skills.
The premise of the thread emphasized on it.
Kirin is tamed and controlled.
Natural Lighting can't grow an eye and a face
Natural Lighting would not fall down automatically the way it did without external manipulation.
You're asking for a direct statement of that which has been logically explained.
Sorry, you are the one to explain how Lighting performed all it did without Chakra manipulating it.
You admitted previously that chakra is imbued in it and sent something to justify. You came back confused and asked for a justification for it again. Please boy, Focus.
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You could just say that you don't have a scan for it.
The Kirin jutsu guides the lightning down from the clouds, and as Sasuke puts it he merely "directs its power" towards Itachi.
So arguments like "Sasuke's chakra boosted the lightning to 6-C" is meaningless since no such thing took place.
The lightning shaping itself into beast form? Nothing to do with its speed, and can just be a product of Sasuke "taming" the lightning and guiding it.
The Kirin jutsu guides the lightning down from the clouds, and as Sasuke puts it he merely "directs its power" towards Itachi.
So arguments like "Sasuke's chakra boosted the lightning to 6-C" is meaningless since no such thing took place.
The lightning shaping itself into beast form? Nothing to do with its speed, and can just be a product of Sasuke "taming" the lightning and guiding it.
Panache_x
Username Only- 395
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"Not stated to be Blue" doesn't mean "Can't be implied to be Blue". Don't reference my message in an illogical manner next time.
Again, read the premise of this thread. Him merely guiding it down is in reference to the fact that he doesn't create the Lighting. He however can manipulate it from there on. "Guide" can have a contextual reference to amplification.
Lighting having facial features is used as a support to the fact that it has been altered and manipulated or tamed via chakra. Once again, don't fail to remember that all you addressed are simply used to back up the fact that Databooks translations says the speed of said Lighting is faster than Natural Lighting.
Godernet
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Can you prove that Kirin is just Natural Lightning and nothing more? The mountain carving Dragon Lightning bolt.
Kirin is still a jutsu so chakra is involved in some way. And we've seen Sasuke still has to use chakra to guide it.
It also clearly outputs more energy than any lightning bolt normally could.
Disregarding it to just lightning speed when nothing implies that and other external sources tell us otherwise that isn't contradicted by the manga would be disingenuous.
And since you apparently can't come up with any counterpoint besides "prove it" I don't see why you don't want to settle for a possibly rating.
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You aren't understanding that this is an assumption on your part, it's assuming that the databook statement is being extremely literal when you haven't proved that yet, and you're assuming it directly contradicts Zetsu's word when it doesn't innately do so. Just because the databook uses the Kanji for SOL doesn't mean it actuality it moves at the speed of light, you're removing needed context which completes the actual sentence, you can't just remove that context and then specifically focus on set of Kanji, it would be dishonest to do so. Especially for a language like Japanese.
The point i'm getting at is just because Kishimoto used SOL in his explanation of Kirin within the databooks doesn't mean it would innately move at the speed of light without further context because there's room for equal interpretations to come about which don't necessarily contradict Zetsu's word. Using a specific set of Kanji doesn't negate the possibility of the statement being hyperbolic.
No one in this thread has proven it's innately non-hyperbolic, the OP only provided the Kanji for the scan without the translation, which isn't evidence for either of our claims, until someone can actually provide the full translation of that raw scan we both can't make complete assertions like this.
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"This jutsu guides the lightning striking down from the heavens."
Yes, the chakra is to guide it.
Yes, because the entire cloud's ambient energy is used. Hence why the storm rapidly vanishes once the jutsu has been cast.
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Natural lightning can’t destroy small mountains tbf. Kirin is natural in the sense it comes from a cloud, but by all means the energy in that bolt of lightning is nowhere near natural, and I believe that is what people are getting at.
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That isn't evidence for the lightning being natural?.
It's evidence that Kirin is a lightning-based attack.
That doesn't disprove his point at all.
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Might have been a gas leak.
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Sasuke literally uses the ambient atmospheric energy to fuel it instead of his own chakra. This is as close to outright stating "It's natural lightning" as you can get.
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It’s natural in the sense that it comes from nature, but irl lightning bolts don’t use all the clouds energy in one bolt, hence Kirin is far beyond any normal lightning. Deceived isn’t saying it’s not natural, but rather it’s not normal.
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tbf, if Sasuke is only guiding the lightning then why does it take the shape of a dragon?
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theres also the fact that Kirin is still used by stronger versions of Sasuke which would mean the speed has to be variable to a degree.
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You didn't use this scan Damage, you used an entirely different scan which didn't disprove his point.
That was my entire post. I don't care if you believe it's natural lightning or not, just the evidence you used against his point didn't prove your claim.
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Sorry, I had posted both of them further up.
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The databook doesn't say that, it just says it's guidable, which isn't evidence for it only being guidable.
That doesn't address Shadow's point.
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He never uses it again in the manga IIRC.
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No body is saying it isn't natural Lightning
We are saying it is natural Lightning being manipulated by chakra ,which could be the reasoning for it having far more power than the natural thing!
It is not like this is first time ninjas infuse chakra into natural elements to increase its output
Even In og Naruto, if I'm not mistaken kakashi and zabuza use their chakra to manipulate the lake Turning the water into a dragon like Shape and increasing the output/ movement of the wave from the lake
Kawaki also mentions ninjas using their chakra to move / manipulate natural elements using water from a lake as an example
And we see when ninjas manipulate such natural elements they are amplified
It is simple lightning being controlled by sasuke chakra= the implications for kishimoto saying it moves at light speed
For batum
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Boruto anime is canon gg
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Doesn't he use it against Naruto in VotE or was that anime only?
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