Happy New Year From Kishimoto

[Damage3245]

Why are both not the same speed?

Do you think that all CTG lightning is the same speed?

 

[Testarossa002]

No it says at the speed of a flash, which is common figurative tool used to emphasize someones speed.

Yh sure
Now that I think further, it doesn't matter that much
He can probably get an FTL rating from keeping up with a shadow clone of KK

What are your thoughts on the rest of the OP
Apart from the two you discussed on

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I'm neutral on the Kirin stuff, i think people also need to remember when it comes to databook stuff that they also descriptive, as in not just the mechanical side but in how it literally looks. this is why a lot of lightning based powers tend to have flashes in their description because they describe literal flashes of lightning.

that being said i do think Kirin is prob faster than Natural lightning but it being lightspeed is questionable to me. Haku who can also move at lightspeed and has far more consistent statements and showings can still blitz people like War arc Kakashi. Then theres' Lightfang which is explicitly noted to be nearly undodgable to 99% of the cast which is stated to move at the speed of light. meaning that 99% of cast need to be slower than lightspeed.

 

[Testarossa002]

Do you think that all CTG lightning is the same speed?

I'm not a science guy
You tell me why zetsu would know more than 1 speed
Because he gave a definitive assertion
"The speed of lightning is 1/1000 of a second" is what he said
Meaning that's the standard in the verse
Which would also apply to the one involving kakashi

 

[Testarossa002]

I'm neutral on the Kirin stuff, i think people also need to remember when it comes to databook stuff that they also descriptive, as in not just the mechanical side but in how it literally looks. this is why a lot of lightning based powers tend to have flashes in their description because they describe literal flashes of lightning.

that being said i do think Kirin is prob faster than Natural lightning but it being lightspeed is questionable to me. Haku who can also move at lightspeed and has far more consistent statements and showings can still blitz people like War arc Kakashi. Then theres' Lightfang which is explicitly noted to be nearly undodgable to 99% of the cast which is stated to move at the speed of light. meaning that 99% of cast need to be slower than lightspeed.

Yeah
Keywords
"Move", "Undodgaeable"
Both of which involves literal movement
As far as I'm aware, neither that version of sasuke nor itachi would scale to Kirin physically
Sasuke scales via his attack speed and Itachi scales via his perception/susanoo activation

 

[Damage3245]

I'm not a science guy
You tell me why zetsu would know more than 1 speed
Because he gave a definitive assertion
"The speed of lightning is 1/1000 of a second" is what he said
Meaning that's the standard in the verse
Which would also apply to the one involving kakashi

If you don't know what you're talking about, then why even bother trying to revise it?

 

[Testarossa002]

If you don't know what you're talking about, then why even bother trying to revise it?

Why do I have to be a physics major to suggest the usage of a WoG statement over another statement?
When there are obvious flaws in the latter considering the context of the series?
You did not address this

You tell me why zetsu would know more than 1 speed
Because he gave a definitive assertion
"The speed of lightning is 1/1000 of a second" is what he said
Meaning that's the standard in the verse
Which would also apply to the one involving kakashi

or this

Zetsu supposedly has an idea on what the speed of CTG lightning is


That aside
Kirin is only 2.7 times faster than the movement speed of 3T Shippuden Kakashi
Apart from the fact that it doesn't seem enough to completely blitz a mangekyo wielding itachi, A 30% capacity itachi was able to keep up just fine with 3T Kakashi as at the beginning of Shippuden

The more you look at it, the more holes you find in both the calc and zetsu's claim

Which again, is completely based on speculations as he has no prior knowledge on the jutsu nor it's mechanics

or this

Kirin isn't exactly a naturally occurring lightning
Nor does it carry the natural potency of one
And it has the shape of a freaking giraffe

Instead picking on this

I'm not a science guy

Like it's supposed to make the other points disappear into thin air

 

[Panache_x]

I think we need another Mod here for futher input.
The one here seems unable to tangibly contribute

To solidify this "theory", Sasuke stated "This Jutsu Guide The Lighting...". Direct implication of this statement is the fact that he uses a Jutsu (which always involves Chakra) to directly control the Lighting. It is this Jutsu that is known as "Kirin '' and not the natural lighting formed. In other words, the natural lighting formed cannot be Kirin without Sasuke manipulating it with his Chakra which can in turn alter its Speed.

"But Zetsu said....."
Aside from the controversy or fact of Zetsu being an unreliable source, it should be clarified that Zetsu only made his statement in reference to natural lighting and didn't and couldn't account for the boost that may come from Sasuke imbuing it with his chakra. For simplicity, Zetsu stated the speed of Natural Lighting and not Kirin. It's previously explained above how the Natural Lighting differs from when it is converted to Kirin.

There has been zero logical counters to this as the fact remains that Zetsu is an unreliable source who has Never witnessed Kirin but simply spoke in terms of a natural CTG without accounting for Sasuke's Manipulation and amp to that Lightning.
Mods disagreeing to something simply due to bias with illogical Refutations isn't healthy to this wiki.

 

[Damage3245]

There has been zero logical counters to this as the fact remains that Zetsu is an unreliable source who has Never witnessed Kirin but simply spoke in terms of a natural CTG without accounting for Sasuke's Manipulation and amp to that Lightning.

Nowhere is it said that Sasuke is amping the speed of the lightning.

 

[Panache_x]

Nowhere is it said that Sasuke is amping the speed of the lightning.

Sasuke imbues it with his chakra to manipulate it to that extent. It's no longer your normal lighting that doesn't possess a face.
Regardless, you shouldn't forget that the ideology is only used to support the Light Speed databook translation rather than standing independently.

 

[ssgengar]

ill try and mention it in my Boruto CRT, but im pretty sure there's going to be a Naruto speed CRT at some point

When you dropping the crt?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

When you dropping the crt?

Q1

 

[Godernet]

That's because they're not both treated as the same speed.... I already explained this to you.

Zetsu also claimed Amaterasu was unavoidable like Kirin yet the Raikage could dodge it. Zetsu does not seem to be a reliable source.

 

[Damage3245]

Zetsu also claimed Amaterasu was unavoidable like Kirin yet the Raikage could dodge it. Zetsu does not seem to be a reliable source.

That feat took place after Zetsu made his statement.

Obviously Zetsu is not to be relied on for events that take place far in the future.

 

[Panache_x]

That feat took place after Zetsu made his statement.

Obviously Zetsu is not to be relied on for events that take place far in the future.

Yh, those I side talks now.
Let me know your stance. If you still disagree, give your reasons then we address it.
Cause I'm letting no one get placed up for Disagree for zero reasonable reasons.
You're gonna be placed Neutral at the very least if you still feel u ain't agreeing to this Regardless of everything.

 

[Tdjwo]

I agree with the CRT, tbh. The mods here haven't brought up any reasonable counters to it except muh Zetsu..zetsu..hyperbole...lightning speed.

 

[Testarossa002]

So just to reiterate some stuffs
This time from the statements page
We have 2 sources
1. Zetsu

If the source of the statement is reliable?
Zetsu has no prior knowledge on the Jutsu nor it's mechanics
He's only making a deduction on what he's seeing in real time
Conclusion: He is hardly reliable

If the statement conflicts with the story or feats of the character?
Zetsu notes that Kirin would be the speed of CTG lightningMeaning it would be in the same ball park of speed as the lightning Kakashi cut
How does something Teen Kakashi could react to be considered impossible to react to for a god tier at that point?
That aside Kirin is only 2.7 times faster than the movement speed of 3T Shippuden Kakashi
Apart from the fact that it doesn't seem enough to completely blitz a mangekyo wielding itachi, A 30% capacity itachi was able to keep up just fine with 3T Kakashi as at the beginning of Shippuden
Conclusion: It heavily contradicts the feats of Itachi, Sasuke and whoever scaled to them at this point in the story

2. Databook Entry
If the source of the statement is reliable?
The databook is written by an omnipotent source aka author
And although not primary canon, it sheds more light on the informations given in the manga and can be used if the events in primary canon are not clear cut
Conclusion: It is reliable in this context

If the statement conflicts with the story or feats of the character?
As established in the points above, no
It's already established that kirin is the fastest thing in the verse at that point
And by feats and statements, it's superior to the already CTG lightning recorded in the verse
Conclusion: No it does not conflict with both the lore and feats

As an addendum, the page also says this:
Option 5: The author is the one calling the Green Knight indestructible outside of the story. As the previous option, this should be examined in the context of the story. A character being described as invincible, indestructible or all powerful in one setting might not be in the same position when compared to characters from other settings.

Already addressed why option 5 is valid in the context of the story up to that point

 

[Damage3245]

That aside Kirin is only 2.7 times faster than the movement speed of 3T Shippuden Kakashi

Our profiles cannot be used as counter-evidence like this because our profiles could simply be wrong.

Zetsu has no prior knowledge on the Jutsu nor it's mechanics

The statement on the mechanics also comes from Sasuke himself. Sasuke states he merely guides lightning down from the clouds; nothing about amping its speed.

It's only after that, where Zetsu makes his statement on the Kirin.

Meaning it would be in the same ball park of speed as the lightning Kakashi cut
How does something Teen Kakashi could react to be considered impossible to react to for a god tier at that point?

Absolutely irrelevant since it's never stated that Kakashi could dodge the lightning.

 

[Archinord991]

I agree with the CRT, tbh. The mods here haven't brought up any reasonable counters to it except muh Zetsu..zetsu..hyperbole...lightning speed.

Staff that don't give an unreasonable reason you mean precisely those that will accept the revision of this thread or not. If the staff does not agree with your CRT, then find another staff.

You can't insult staff just for disagreeing with you.

Btw, I'm neutral with this.

 

[KingogKings777]

Hard disagree, Kishi said guns would be issues for ninja so they can't be faster then guns.

 

[Godernet]

Absolutely irrelevant since it's never stated that Kakashi could dodge the lightning.

Guy stated that Kakashi chopped lightning, which still implies he could perceive it and move to hit it with his Chidori. That is much more impressive than just dodging.

Interpreting this as Kakashi could react but wasn't fast enough to dodge and only somehow cut it requires headcanon rather than just interpreting the manga statement at face value.

Do you have any proof that supports that interpretation or anti feats for Kid Kakashi?

 

[Retired_Penguin_X]

Following...

Neutral for now

 

[Tdjwo]

Staff that don't give an unreasonable reason you mean precisely those that will accept the revision of this thread or not. If the staff does not agree with your CRT, then find another staff.

You can't insult staff just for disagreeing with you.

Btw, I'm neutral with this.

I don't remember ever insulting any staff here.

 

[KingTempest]

Sasuke imbues it with his chakra to manipulate it to that extent. It's no longer your normal lighting that doesn't possess a face.
Regardless, you shouldn't forget that the ideology is only used to support the Light Speed databook translation rather than standing independently.

Sasuke imbues it with tiny amounts of chakra.
A tiny amount of chakra added to an intense lightning style jutsu won't amp it to be literally over a thousand times faster than it already is

 

[Archinord991]

I don't remember ever insulting any staff here.

At least I thought. To not drag on in this thread, this is just a suggestion.

 

[Panache_x]

Sasuke imbues it with tiny amounts of chakra.
A tiny amount of chakra added to an intense lightning style jutsu won't amp it to be literally over a thousand times faster than it already is

Quantify that "tiny amount" and draw out the mathematics.

 

[KingTempest]

Quantify that "tiny amount" and draw out the mathematics.

So small to the point where Itachi said that Sasuke had no chakra left and the databook calls it a low impact withdraw from the user

 

[Godernet]

Sasuke imbues it with tiny amounts of chakra.
A tiny amount of chakra added to an intense lightning style jutsu won't amp it to be literally over a thousand times faster than it already is

saying that it can't do that isn't an argument. Gaara laces sand with bits of his chakra and he can make ordinary sand to tag people like Madara when lightning Jutsu can't.

 

[KaydeeX]

A bit neutral rn on the shippuden stuff, just wanna see what some other people say first

Agree with the boruto changes, I honestly think there’s enough for FTL base naruto though. Not only did he perform relativistic feats while extremely weakened, he showed brief FTL speeds against fused momo too

Naruto uses kurama chakra in base tho, so it's not really a nerf on the Several orders of magnitude (multiplers)

 

[KaydeeX]

Clean

So just to reiterate some stuffs
This time from the statements page
We have 2 sources
1. Zetsu

If the source of the statement is reliable?
Zetsu has no prior knowledge on the Jutsu nor it's mechanics
He's only making a deduction on what he's seeing in real time
Conclusion: He is hardly reliable

If the statement conflicts with the story or feats of the character?
Zetsu notes that Kirin would be the speed of CTG lightningMeaning it would be in the same ball park of speed as the lightning Kakashi cut
How does something Teen Kakashi could react to be considered impossible to react to for a god tier at that point?
That aside Kirin is only 2.7 times faster than the movement speed of 3T Shippuden Kakashi
Apart from the fact that it doesn't seem enough to completely blitz a mangekyo wielding itachi, A 30% capacity itachi was able to keep up just fine with 3T Kakashi as at the beginning of Shippuden
Conclusion: It heavily contradicts the feats of Itachi, Sasuke and whoever scaled to them at this point in the story

2. Databook Entry
If the source of the statement is reliable?
The databook is written by an omnipotent source aka author
And although not primary canon, it sheds more light on the informations given in the manga and can be used if the events in primary canon are not clear cut
Conclusion: It is reliable in this context

If the statement conflicts with the story or feats of the character?
As established in the points above, no
It's already established that kirin is the fastest thing in the verse at that point
And by feats and statements, it's superior to the already CTG lightning recorded in the verse
Conclusion: No it does not conflict with both the lore and feats

As an addendum, the page also says this:
Option 5: The author is the one calling the Green Knight indestructible outside of the story. As the previous option, this should be examined in the context of the story. A character being described as invincible, indestructible or all powerful in one setting might not be in the same position when compared to characters from other settings.

Already addressed why option 5 is valid in the context of the story up to that point

 

[Panache_x]

So small to the point where Itachi said that Sasuke had no chakra left and the databook calls it a low impact withdraw from the user

Firstly, it is stated that he has tamed it i.e he has total control over it and even a meager amount of chakra would enable him draw it down at that speed according to his will.
Secondly, that's an obvious Appeal to Reality. You aren't an objective personnel to give the workings of the fictional Verse as they can alter basic Physics, addition or any other Logicality to make their work an illogical logicality.
Thirdly, you still seem to forget that the issue of imbuing chakra is used to Support the Light Speed Translation. It's not objected independently. When asked how "Natural Lighting" can move at light speed (according to the databook translation), the case of Chakra Imbuing is brought up.

 

[Damage3245]

Literally nowhere does that scan say that the lightning itself is imbued with chakra.

 

[Godernet]

Literally nowhere does that scan say that the lightning itself is imbued with chakra.

I mean for it to be a Jutsu some chakra needs to be involved. that's a fundamental rule of the power system.

And Sasuke and Zetsu don't necessarily say there is 0 chakra involved but that it would be a Jutsu that uses the enormous power of natural lightning rather than just Sasuke's chakra to create Nature transformation alone.

 

[Panache_x]

Our profiles cannot be used as counter-evidence like this because our profiles could simply be wrong.

Same way he told you the current calc on the site could, rather is wrong

The statement on the mechanics also comes from Sasuke himself. Sasuke states he merely guides lightning down from the clouds; nothing about amping its speed.

You are repeating same thing we've gone Over.

• Databooks translation gave it Light Speed.
• Controversy of it being just Lighting is nulled by Sasuke taming it and imbuing it with Chakra.
• Zetsu has Never witnessed the Jutsu and is in no place legible to account for Sasuke's Manipulation of the Natural Lighting

Absolutely irrelevant since it's never stated that Kakashi could dodge the lightning.

I thought it was obvious that he would have to react to it or intercept it to cut em.
Dw, cook on

 

[Panache_x]

Literally nowhere does that scan say that the lightning itself is imbued with chakra.

You have to refute the premise of why and how chakra is imbued in it and avoid baseless refutations, you are damaging this thread negatively.

 

[Damage3245]

You have to refute the premise of why and how chakra is imbued in it and avoid baseless refutations, you are damaging this thread negatively.

I don't have to refute that which has been presented without evidence.

The chakra involved can purely be in the directing the lightning to the target, as Sasuke explains when he goes over what the jutsu involves. We don't have to headcanon that he amps the speed of it up thousands of times.

 

[Panache_x]

I don't have to refute that which has been presented without evidence.

The chakra involved can purely be in the directing the lightning to the target, as Sasuke explains when he goes over what the jutsu involves. We don't have to headcanon that he amps the speed of it up thousands of times.

Umm Yh, evidence were dropped.
And please stick to a claim
You mentioned it was never stated chakra is imbued, but you are presently claiming the "chakra involved"

Also no, it's not a Headcanon
This is the third time I'm repeating this; Sasuke imbuing chakra and taming it is used to support the fact that the translation reads Light Speed.
It's no headcanon and no assumption. The Lighting is manipulated by Sasuke's Chakra. The lighting won't fall down without Sasuke using his Chakra to manipulate it.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Hard disagree, Kishi said guns would be issues for ninja so they can't be faster then guns.

Can’t tell if this is satire.

 

[Godernet]

I don't have to refute that which has been presented without evidence.

The chakra involved can purely be in the directing the lightning to the target, as Sasuke explains when he goes over what the jutsu involves. We don't have to headcanon that he amps the speed of it up thousands of times.

the evidence is the databook entry that Kirin is Light Speed.

we're just taking the statement at face value as there are no anti-feats nor would it break scaling.

headcanon would be saying that it can't possibly be that speed with no definite evidence.

Again an example would be Gaara making regular sand move at comparable speeds to lightning by lacing it with his chakra.

 

[KingogKings777]

Can’t tell if this is satire.

Kishi in interview said guns were to much for ninja, disagreement is just cope.