Happy New Year From Kishimoto

[Majinere566]

KingogKings777 fra

 

[45Saef]

Staff that don't give an unreasonable reason you mean precisely those that will accept the revision of this thread or not. If the staff does not agree with your CRT, then find another staff.

You can't insult staff just for disagreeing with you.

Btw, I'm neutral with this.

But he never insulted the staff to begin with though, nor can I see it anyways. He simply said they haven’t brought any reasonable counter argument to the claim that has been established except for Zetsu being a “hindrance” to the CRT.

 

[Mori]

Since I haven't seen any reasonable refutation to the prepositions, I agree with the Light Speed Kirin.

I need more light thrown on the new gen scaling.

 

[narutosage15]

Kishi in interview said guns were to much for ninja, disagreement is just cope.

Please tell me you’re joking?

 

[KingogKings777]

Please tell me you’re joking?

Take it up with Kishi not me.

 

[The_Alxhemist]

Naruto uses kurama chakra in base tho, so it's not really a nerf on the Several orders of magnitude (multiplers)

Save this for another thread. We can't revist Kido multiplier here

 

[The_Alxhemist]

Ok can you people drop the Kirin bit already? Arc already reviewed the raw databook scan and he got a different translation. If there's any problems, Tes can put in a translation request through another person.

New Era Naruto and Orochimaru looks simple enough, I doubt there's any sound argument against it.

What's interesting is Konohamaru's calc and how many people it would affect. By the looks it's of its already damn near a verse wide revision because almost every single Anime original character would be affected

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Ok can you people drop the Kirin bit already? Arc already reviewed the raw databook scan and he got a different translation. If there's any problems, Tes can put in a translation request through another person.

I actually reviewed the Itachi Tsukuyomi translation. The raws for Kirin do say speed of light iirc

 

[narutosage15]

Take it up with Kishi not me

How is this related to speed in any given context?
Kishi: I restrained weapons used for war
You: They can’t dodge bullets

 

[Testarossa002]

Our profiles cannot be used as counter-evidence like this because our profiles could simply be wrong.

The calcs carry more weight than a canon statement but I can't apply the outcome of those calcs in this discussion?

The statement on the mechanics also comes from Sasuke himself. Sasuke states he merely guides lightning down from the clouds; nothing about amping its speed.

It's only after that, where Zetsu makes his statement on the Kirin.

The point is
Which one has been saying since
Is that it's not a Naturally occurring lightning
The very fact that supernatural energy is used in it's creation makes it open to multiple lightning
"Lightning from the heavens" don't get tier 6 values

Absolutely irrelevant since it's never stated that Kakashi could dodge the lightning

Who's talking about dodging
Apparently, lightning speed is instantaneous
That version of kakashi has no business even perceiving the movement of the lightning when itachi was considered a sitting duck from the same speed

 

[Testarossa002]

Sasuke imbues it with tiny amounts of chakra.
A tiny amount of chakra added to an intense lightning style jutsu won't amp it to be literally over a thousand times faster than it already is

It's okay when lightning leaves it's building level tier to tier 6 but it's incredulous to believe that that same lightning can be much faster?
Especially again, when supernatural energy was involved in it's creation
Various ninjas including itachi have made literal water move at breakneck speed

 

[Testarossa002]

I mean for it to be a Jutsu some chakra needs to be involved. that's a fundamental rule of the power system.

And Sasuke and Zetsu don't necessarily say there is 0 chakra involved but that it would be a Jutsu that uses the enormous power of natural lightning rather than just Sasuke's chakra to create Nature transformation alone.

Similar to earth and water styles users manipulating already existing elements to do shit
It takes less chakra to do that
Doesn't mean it can't be manipulated

 

[Testarossa002]

Ok can you people drop the Kirin bit already? Arc already reviewed the raw databook scan and he got a different translation. If there's any problems, Tes can put in a translation request through another person.

New Era Naruto and Orochimaru looks simple enough, I doubt there's any sound argument against it.

What's interesting is Konohamaru's calc and how many people it would affect. By the looks it's of its already damn near a verse wide revision because almost every single Anime original character would be affected

Yeah
You brought up Jugo earlier
Peeps like shinki and ku might eventually scale
Don't remember every episode in Boruto
And don't plan on rewatching anytime soon
Only listed the characters I remembered

 

[KingogKings777]

How is this related to speed in any given context?
Kishi: I restrained weapons used for war
You: They can’t dodge bullets

If they moved as fast as the crt says or were destructive as the profiles label them then Kishi wouldn't have said this, but he did.

 

[Testarossa002]

If they moved as fast as the crt says or were destructive as the profiles label them then Kishi wouldn't have said this, but he did.

Yh sure
Go make your downgrade CRT
Small Town level ishiki is consistent with Naruto fearing he'll destroy the hidden leaf

 

[Archinord991]

If they moved as fast as the crt says or were destructive as the profiles label them then Kishi wouldn't have said this, but he did.

You know Author doesn't care about the scaling we do at all, they just create stories so we cannot take all statement Author. Either you're doing this troll or a joke .

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

King is trolling that statement was made for very early part 1 Naruto iirc

 

[Archinord991]

King is trolling that statement was made for very early part 1 Naruto iirc

Yeah I know, this is only for people who are fooled at his trolls

 

[KingTempest]

It's okay when lightning leaves it's building level tier to tier 6 but it's incredulous to believe that that same lightning can be much faster?
Especially again, when supernatural energy was involved in it's creation
Various ninjas including itachi have made literal water move at breakneck speed

Creating water and shooting it out at breakneck speed vs summoning lightning and merely telling it where to move is completely different

You can have a ridiculously large strength amp and a small speed amp

 

[Testarossa002]

Creating water and shooting it out at breakneck speed vs summoning lightning and merely telling it where to move is completely different

You can have a ridiculously large strength amp and a small speed amp

Point is
There's an amp
Which directly affects the stance of "it's natural"
That aside
Kirin would be 680x faster than the speed of lightning accepted in this community
Compared to the 2164160718x difference between the regular building level potency of lightning and baseline 6C
I'd say the speed amp is ridiculously small compared to that of it's potency

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I will say the fact that the lightning bolt was able to obliterate a small mountain definitely warrants the notion that said bolt of lightning is not “regular” lightning. Not that it inherently means anything, but it’s not crazy to think a “natural” lightning bolt capable of performing crazy freak of nature feats of destroying a small mountain might not abide by the standards of your average couple gigajoule bolt of lightning. I don’t really have anything to say in this debate but felt like commenting on this point.

 

[Godernet]

Creating water and shooting it out at breakneck speed vs summoning lightning and merely telling it where to move is completely different

You can have a ridiculously large strength amp and a small speed amp

Assuming it to be a small speed difference is fine when there is no other evidence to go off of at that point we would use a calc to supplement the lack of information.

But why make an assumption when we can use a statement that isn’t contradicted by the Manga?

 

[KingTempest]

Assuming it to be a small speed difference is fine when there is no other evidence to go off of at that point we would use a calc to supplement the lack of information.

But why make an assumption when we can use a statement that isn’t contradicted by the Manga?

"Isn't contradicted"

When the technique is given a timeframe of a millisecond, with a speed of SOL, that means it would need to cover over a quarter of a million meters in order to hit the ground

We can visibly see the height of the technique. It doesn't cover that much

 

[Godernet]

"Isn't contradicted"

When the technique is given a timeframe of a millisecond, with a speed of SOL, that means it would need to cover over a quarter of a million meters in order to hit the ground

We can visibly see the height of the technique. It doesn't cover that much

The time frame is given by Zetsu who is seeing it for the first time and is just guessing how the technique works based on his understanding of regular lightning.

And as others have pointed out this Jutsu’s destructive capabilities already far surpasses regular lightning.

Zetsu’s guesses don’t debunk the SOL statement.

 

[Majinere566]

The time frame is given by Zetsu who is seeing it for the first time and is just guessing how the technique works based on his understanding of regular lightning.

There's something called Authors intent.

The Author went out of his way to provide a Timeframe and even dubbing it as faster than Sound.

Infact isn't the speed of light thing mistranslated?

 

[Godernet]

There's something called Authors intent.

The Author went out of his way to provide a Timeframe and even dubbing it as faster than Sound.

Infact isn't the speed of light thing mistranslated?

The SOL thing is not a mistranslation as far as I've seen but if you'd like to have someone translate it again go ahead.

Also how you believe Kishimoto meant for this to play out isn't an argument.

Zetsu gave a timeframe for Natural Lightning in the Naruto world. Kirin isn't just Natural Lightning, it's a Jutsu.

And even disregarding the SOL Statement, Zetsu's opinion that Kirin being the Speed of Lightning is the reason Sasuke claimed it can't be evaded contradicts earlier statements made about Teen Kakashi cutting lightning.

Zetsu just isn't a reliable source of information on Sasuke's unique Jutsu.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Being I don’t see why Kirin can’t be “Sub-Rel (calc), possibly SoL (databook)”. Zetsu isn’t an objective source so there’s no inherent contradiction, Kirin is obviously a super lightning bolt, it seems like a more than fair compromise between the skeptical and the not.

 

[Majinere566]

The SOL thing is not a mistranslation as far as I've seen but if you'd like to have someone translate it again go ahead.

Also how you believe Kishimoto meant for this to play out isn't an argument.

Zetsu gave a timeframe for Natural Lightning in the Naruto world. Kirin isn't just Natural Lightning, it's a Jutsu.

And even disregarding the SOL Statement, Zetsu's opinion that Kirin being the Speed of Lightning is the reason Sasuke claimed it can't be evaded contradicts earlier statements made about Teen Kakashi cutting lightning.

Unsurprisingly, Zetsu just isn't a reliable source of information on Sasuke's unique Jutsu.

1. Saying what the author intended isn't an argument is crazy. That's quite literally disregarding what the author wants.

2. In the scan you said, sasuke even mentions that he only guides the lightning paths, hence why he "tamed the lightning". So yes its natural lightning and the Timeframe is still credible and is actually crucial in getting the speed of how fast the jutsu is.

I think the fact that is "unavoidable" is because sasuke controls the path on which the lightning travels which is why zetsu thoughts on the jutsu was confirmed.

 

[Majinere566]

Just to be safe doesn't a manga hold precedence over stuff in a databook?

 

[Godernet]

1. Saying what the author intended isn't an argument is crazy. That's quite literally disregarding what the author wants.

it's not an argument because unless the Author confirms your interpretation is correct it's all speculatory at best.

2. In the scan you said, sasuke even mentions that he only guides the lightning paths, hence why he "tamed the lightning". So yes its natural lightning and the Timeframe is still credible and is actually crucial in getting the speed of how fast the jutsu is.

Sasuke says he directs its Power toward the Target and does not comment on its speed. Again this isn't just a lightning bolt, it's a jutsu that has shown far more power than a natural lightning bolt could and it still requires Sasuke's chakra to be usable.

I think the fact that is "unavoidable" is because sasuke controls the path on which the lightning travels which is why zetsu thoughts on the jutsu was confirmed.

Sasuke controlling the path doesn't make it unavoidable. Sasuke controls the path of all of his Jutsu.

Zetsu in the same panel as the time frame claims that if Kirin's speed was "the speed of lightning" it would be unavoidable in his eyes.

Which contradicts the entire lore of Raikiri.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Just to be safe doesn't a manga hold precedence over stuff in a databook?

No depends on the circumstance

 

[Panache_x]

2. In the scan you said, sasuke even mentions that he only guides the lightning paths, hence why he "tamed the lightning". So yes its natural lightning and the Timeframe is still credible and is actually crucial in getting the speed of how fast the jutsu is.

Bullshit.
The premise of the whole issue includes Sasuke imbuing Said Natural Lighting with his chakra to freely manipulate it hence the speed increase.
"Natural Lighting" can't grow an eye nor a head. Kirin isn't Kirin but just Natural Lighting until Sasuke uses his chakra to tame and manipulate.

• Databooks translation gave it Light Speed.
• Controversy of it being just Lighting is nulled by Sasuke taming it and imbuing it with Chakra.
• Zetsu has Never witnessed the Jutsu and is in no place legible to account for Sasuke's Manipulation of the Lighting.

Stop the damn recycling of already burnt points.

 

[Deceived3596]

Arguing for Kirin being objectively, or more likely SOL comparative to Lightning Speed isn't something i agree with, nor do i believe it's necessarily supported by more evidence compared to Lightning Speed Kirin.

I'm fine with Arc's compromise however since there's evidence behind both claims being possibly true, with those claims holding similar probability values imo. But arguing a concrete SOL rating for Kirin is something i heavily disagree with.

 

[Godernet]

Arguing for Kirin being objectively, or more likely SOL comparative to Lightning Speed isn't something i agree with, nor do i believe it's necessarily supported by more evidence compared to Lightning Speed Kirin.

I'm fine with Arc's compromise however since there's evidence behind both claims being possibly true, with those claims having similar probability values. But arguing for a concrete SOL rating for Kirin is something i heavily disagree with.

Are there any valid arguments you can bring up against a solid SOL Kirin rating?

So far nothing has been said that isn't misinterpreting Zetsu's words, making an assumption, or flat-out disagreeing with no arguments presented.

if you don't feel like arguing the point that's fine just curious.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Arguing for Kirin being objectively, or more likely SOL comparative to Lightning Speed isn't something i agree with, nor do i believe it's necessarily supported by more evidence compared to Lightning Speed Kirin.

I'm fine with Arc's compromise however since there's evidence behind both claims being possibly true, with those claims holding similar probability values imo. But arguing a concrete SOL rating for Kirin is something i heavily disagree with.

I agree that Arc guy was onto sumn

 

[Deceived3596]

I agree that Arc guy was onto sumn

She's very intelligent.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

She's very intelligent.

 

[Godernet]

She's very intelligent.

ain't no way this mf ignored my message to flirt with Arc

 

[Deceived3596]

ain't no way this mf ignored my message to flirt with Arc

 

[Deceived3596]

Are there any valid arguments you can bring up against a solid SOL Kirin rating?

So far nothing has been said that isn't misinterpreting Zetsu's words, making an assumption, or flat-out disagreeing with no arguments presented.

if you don't feel like arguing the point that's fine just curious.

Since we're working upon mostly different interpretations of the same statements, we're arguing something which is innately subjective, and not solid. This isn't a singular direct statement which doesn't have multiple other valid interpretations intertwined within it. It just isn't. We're arguing purely on our interpretations of what Zetsu actually meant by his statement, making assumptions if he's actually knowledgeable enough to be a credible source on Saskue's jutsu or not, and believing the databook statement is being literal or not.

Nothing about this is "solid", it would be intellectually dishonest in my opinion to assert we're dealing with something which isn't mostly subjective to interpretation and assumptions.