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Haku Upgrade

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I would argue that in terms of Haku's durability/AP, he does only have one significant feat in the War arc which is not to be completely overwhelmed by Rock Lee and Guy's kick.

Zabuza's hype statements for him are not feats.
 
The statements still give Haku more than just one feat. Aside from the feat you mentioned Haku also has intercepting Raikiri on two separate occasions and defending against Sai's ink birds.
 
I was talking specifically about durability/AP.

Defending against Sai's birds is a bit meaningless since we don't know how powerful the attack was, though it may be possible to calc.
 
The bird thing was more speed than durability/AP, though I guess you could calc it if you wanted to. Also Haku was shown fighting Rock Lee during the War, which is more AP stuff.
 
What are the conclusions here?
 
Antvasima said:
What are the conclusions here?
Click to expand...
Some people are in favor of upgrading Haku, some others including myself disagree. I've asked them to invite Kep to the thread for his input, but mostly this thread feels like a retread of the previous attempt to upgrade Haku which you closed a couple months ago.
 
@Damage3245

I have already pointed out that the OP of this thread presented more evidence than the one you are referring to.
 
@Damage

Okay then.

I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.
 
@Nehz

Whatever the reason for Shukaku, it doesn't change the fact that it is an outlier that should never be accepted, especially when it results in a circular line of scaling that just makes Naruto infinite in power. It is no different from Zabuza being a match and equal to Kakashi, then still being a match and equal for a much stronger, fairly faster Kakashi that doesn't get tired nearly as fast despite being an Edo and, therefore, weaker. It makes no sense and shoudn't be accounted for to make ratings unless there's sufficiently good contextual information to explain the discrepancy (like Kabuto somehow empowering their edos), which there isn't in this case. The exact opposite, everything points out he shouldn't be that strong.

The ending things quick isn't my main point, but that Haku not holding back any of his power makes more sense in the context of the scene. Be it getting to Zabuza quickly, keeping Sasuke occupied without killing him, putting him and Naruto out of commission quickly, all of them make more sense if Haku was using all of his power but was simply doing his best to kill neither of them. Not only is it consistent with Zabuza saying he was pained fighting them, it makes way more sense when the statement Sasuke denies from the start is how he was able to avoid hits to his vital areas, which doesn't correlate in anyway with Haku hitting slower or softer, but with him never trying to kill Sasuke

And indeed, it doesn't mean it was all he did... but that doesn't matter when the implication points in that direction, and nothing indicates Haku punched softer or moved slower, or that there is literally any scenario in which he gains anything out of it. Leaving aside that no one at no point says Haku was or is holding back, your reply is basically saying that nothing indicates he wasn't holding his strength so it is entirely possible, while my point is that the statements and context very much lean for my interpretation much more.

@LordTracer

No, it just means that Haku is more skilled, in what way would that even come close to implicating he's jonin level and way above Sasuke in strength and speed? Does Naruto at the end of the manga suddenly scale way above Sasuke for getting a draw and not trying to kill him while Sasuke was trying to kill him? Does Sasaki from Fate scale way above Saber in power for dominating her in close combat because his skill is much better? No, they obviously don't. Haku was simply way more skilled and had a much better jutsu, the Demonic Ice Mirrors. Nothing indicates he was holding back beyond not trying to kill Sasuke.
 
Him not trying to kill Sasuke isn't what makes him Jonin level, I don't know why or how you thought that was my conclusion. And how does not trying to kill someone mean they're just more skilled as opposed to holding back, that doesn't make sense. And your examples (one of which means nothing to me cause I don't know shit about Fate) don't take into account the fact that, as is shown in the OP, Haku has numerous feats in the War Arc where he fights 7-C people.
 
Because being able to not kill someone is a matter of skill...? LIke knowing how to deal damage without making it lethal? The exact same thing Haku did by hitting none of Sasuke's vital points all through the fight? Holding back doesn't exclusively translate into using less power so why are you acting like holding back and trying not to kill Sasuke are entirely different things?

Yes, just as Zabuza fights Kakashi. The same Zabuza that is weaker because of being an Edo, weaker still than the version that had a hard fight against Low 7-C Kakashi, the same Kakashi that is hundreds of times weaker and much slower than the version this supposedly weaker Zabuza is matching. It's an outlier, what a surprise.
 
@LSirLancelotDuLacl

I believe you are confusing Kakashi's key for him as a child with the key for him in Part I.
 
I literally said Haku not trying to kill Sasuke means he was holding back... not that they're different things...?

Zabuza is not Haku. Zabuza fighting War Arc Kakashi is an outlier, yes. What reason is there to assume Haku fighting Rock Lee, Gai, later Gai and Lee at the same time, plus Zabuza saying Haku can beat Kakashi even in the Land of Waves is ALL outliers, and the one fight between him, Naruto and Sasuke is what's consistent.
 
@Nehz

OH right. I was getting extremely angry at my laptop for a really dumb error it was giving me so I got distracted, thanks for pointing it out.

But I can agree with Astral to shut this down until later if there is gonna be some AP related stuff.
 
This isn't purely AP related though. Aside from Haku's AP it also addresses his scaling and his speed.
 
Except it is, as there's nothing indicating he is holding back his power and the issue is the discrepancy of the power he shows at the start and the power he shows in the War Arc, which already has other inconsistencies like Zabuza himself matching Kakashi.

If the AP revisions make this less egrigious, it is much easier to consider.
 
The speed is the most inconsistent part of it. As I stated above, Zabuza would have noticed if Haku was holding himself back enough to point where Sasuke could keep up with him.
 
Nothing implicates Haku was moving slower. Even worse, Haku literally gains nothing at all from moving slower while battling Sasuke and Naruto. No seriously, he still ends up hurting them, what's the point of making everything harder for himself by moving slower? And compounding this, Sasuke's imperfect Sharingan could keep up with him.

So still a no from me.
 
@LSirLancelotDuLacl

If you think that Haku's speed being higher than Supersonic is inconsistent, do you think that the justification for his speed with his ice mirrors needs to be revised? The justification is after all intercepting Raikiri which would be Massively Hypersonic+ in the Land of Waves Arc and Sub-Relativistic in the War Arc.
 
Which makes no sense and is inconsistent.

Like Damage said, keeping it as "higher" is much more easy and less of an annoyance since we know he can totally move faster, yet he can intercept Kakashi and at the same time Sasuke can keep up with him and evade him while tired and hurt, the same Sasuke who is way below Kakashi and has a sharingan that compares in no way to his.
 
@LSirLancelotDuLacl

If Haku's speed doesn't get upgraded, then I think that his speed justification should be changed since it puts him on a level of speed that isn't listed on his profile. There is also the fact that you think that intercepting Raikiri is an inconsistency for Haku so that shouldn't be a justification for his mirror speed in that case.
 
It is proof for the fact that the mirror does indeed make him faster and he does indeed use it to move faster if needed, not so much for being comparable to Kakashi. The inconsistency makes putting a credible, hard number impossible, but it doesn't mean the feats can't convey that the mirror does amp his speed
 
The feat still puts him higher than what his profile lists him as. If Haku's mirror speed isn't accepted as equal or superior to Kakashi's Raikiri, then in my opinion the justification of intercepting Raikiri shouldn't be on his profile at all. That justification should be replaced with something that also shows that the ice mirrors make him faster but doesn't suggest him to be Massively Hypersonic+ or Sub-Relativistic.
 
The justification can be written to something along the lines of "Travelling via the ice mirrors makes him far faster with Naruto and Sasuke struggling to keep up with him".
 
If nothing about Haku's speed changes, then that justification would be better in my opinion.
 
LordTracer said:
I literally said Haku not trying to kill Sasuke means he was holding back... not that they're different things...?

Zabuza is not Haku. Zabuza fighting War Arc Kakashi is an outlier, yes. What reason is there to assume Haku fighting Rock Lee, Gai, later Gai and Lee at the same time, plus Zabuza saying Haku can beat Kakashi even in the Land of Waves is ALL outliers, and the one fight between him, Naruto and Sasuke is what's consistent.
Click to expand...
Imma just repost this, cause I don't recall seeing it responded to.
 
Considering that statement, how the speed increase is portrayed and how Sasuke specifically needed his Sharingan to keep up should Haku's speed with the ice mirrors be changed from simply being higher to far higher? Sasuke's profile should probably list him as having higher perception speed via the Sharingan since it allowed him to perceive Haku. That would be something that every Sharingan user should have in that case.
 
"And how does not trying to kill someone mean they're just more skilled as opposed to holding back, that doesn't make sense."

This is not differentiating? Nothing indicates he is holding back by using less power, just holding back by not actually trying to give a lethal blow. Not mentioning that, again, no one ever says he was holding back either.

He is not Haku, but it perfectly shows the scene already having an outlier completely disregarding the power of the characters for the sake of a scene. The fact that there is nothing indicating what Zabuza said about Kakashi not being able to beat him is actually true at all? The fact that a Naruto enhanced by Kyuubi Chakra, which would be weaker and slower than Naruto in the Sasuke Retrieval Arc, which is still weaker and slower than Kakashi in his base state, could outspeed Haku, damage him and destroy his mirrors? The fact a tired Sasuke with an inferior sharingan could keep up with his Demonic Ice MIrror speed and Haku even thinks to himself trying to attack Sasuke like this would be foolhardy, hence targetting Naruto?

He is holding back his power and speed even though he is worried of Sasuke with a sharingan? He's holdding back his power and speed despite desperately trying to get to his next mirror and Naruto reacting and grabbing him before he does? He's holding back his power and letting Naruto kill him because "he lost" and stopped being useful as a tool, when he had no trouble putting Sasuke out of commission and could have easily done the same to Naruto and Sasuke if he was even half as strong as Kakashi?

Just because he could "match" Guy and Lee in an scene that already has another, way more blatant outlier for the sake of a cool scnee? You can't be serious.
 
It still means Haku wasn't going all-out in the fight. If he's not trying to murder Sasuke, then he's not going all out. That's just logical. And you didn't really answer my question on how not trying to kill someone = only being more skilled than them.

No, it just shows Zabuza was the one with the outliers. You can't immediately apply that to Haku just cause it was the same scene. And for what reason would Zabuza have to lie about Haku being able to beat Kakashi, hm? And Naruto with the Kyuubi chakra was stated in that same arc to be, and I quote; "too strong" to be Kakashi.

Just because you're not going all-out doesn't mean you can't get worried... If someone can damage you even when you're not going all out, there's still very much cause to get worried there.

Once again, you can't just claim Haku's scene is an outlier just because Zabuza's is. Especially when Haku was fighting Lee before that, showing that it's not his only thing on that level. And I didn't say he could match both Lee and Gai, I said he could match Lee alone. Which is still 7-C.

And again, how is EVERYTHING Haku did in the War Arc the outlier, but the ONE fight he had against Naruto and Sasuke is the consistent one?
 
Trying not to murder doesn't mean he wasn't hitting any softer or moving any slower. Hitting someone in the arm instead of the throat, which is easily way more lethal and can likely end in death, is holding back, even if you are hitting the arm with your full strength. Throwing his senbon to non vital areas is holding back, and doesn't require him to attack any less hard or any less fast.

Sure, if you want to believe that. Kishimoto showing he doesn't understand the massive power difference in this scenario is just further proof to me he didn't know what he was doing.

It... actually means he shouldn't, do you even know what the context is? Why should Haku be worried about someone he should easily outspeed, even without his mirrors, catching up to him? Why would he ever be worried and unable to match a 8-B kid when he scales to 7-C and shouldn't even feel a tickle from his attacks? Why would you ever worry about stuff you can easily circumvent? I am confused you are even questioning this.

It really doesn't matter. It only means the entire scene is an outlier. It being a scene instead of a single instance doesn't make it any less of an outlier.

Because that fight has more context to it and we can even see Haku's thoughts? By that logic Zabuza isn't an outlier because he had a whole fight.
 
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