Haku Upgrade

[UrsaBanks]

Just a suggestion. Might be a bit of headcannon but it's better than flat out lying on your guy's profiles and ignoring Haku's actual capabilities just to make the rest of your profiles seem nice when it's not your fault that the verse is seemingly inconsistent.

If we took the same amount of Chakra from Naruto's half of the Kyubi and Kakashi, who's Chakra would be stronger? The Kyubi's. But if you took all of Kakashi's Chakra and compared it to just about enough Chakra from the Nine Tails to walk on water (proportional to what the Kyubi would use for himself I guess?), who would likely be stronger? Kakashi. At least, that's what everything else in the series has led us to believe. Now, in that moment, Naruto has only a fraction of a fraction of Kurama's casual Chakra. What I think can be said is that, Zabuza was referring to the potency of the Chakra itself— Nine Tails power that's far more ferocious, hateful, dangerous, demonic makes Kakashi's look like nothing in comparison, but that doesn't make him stronger than Kakashi. It's more of a recognition of the quality of Chakra than anything else. Naruto's nine tails Chakra state had obviously very little of Kurama's power in the grand scheme of things, as its the first time the Seal has let some of it leak through. What can be gathered is that Zabuza notices that the Chakra he's sensing is of a stronger TYPE than Kakashi's rather than being stronger.

But I mean, this is just me trying to reconcile the statements. If y'all wanna say Haku isn't as strong as he actually is just to avoid scaling political issues, that's your prerogative

 

[Nehz_XZX]

UrsaBanks, to your information, I wasn't involved with making the profiles.

 

[UrsaBanks]

No one said you were. I'm referring to this community as a whole when I say "you guys".

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Okay.

 

[Damage3245]

When you're comparing a character between them at nearly the beginning of the series and them 500 chapters on when powerscaling has ramped up enormously and every other character has gone through power increases, inconsistencies are inevitable.

Let's not forget that this is the same arc that has Zabuza being stabbed and wounded by common thugs when he's supposed to be comparable to Kakashi.

So for the sake of keeping the verse consistent, sometimes we do end up having to ignore some things.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I think, I can understand and accept that but we still have to decide how exactly we are dealing with this.

 

[LordTracer]

So... can I apply the upgrade for Haku?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

It seems like to me as if that part has been accepted so it should be alright to apply it now. What remains are the ramifications of that upgrade and how it affects the scaling.

 

[UrsaBanks]

No, you don't Damage. Bluntly, that's a bullshit excuse. It isn't your job to keep the verse consistent when it isn't. It's your job to be accurate. And when you can obviously make some way to use the truth at the same time, then you should be doing so rather than trying to look good. Which is the bigger inconsistency? As in, more troubling. Haku being stronger in his Edo Tensei form than his living counterpart, or Zabuza being wall level in durability whilst weakened after a fight against a fellow Kage Level opponent that was stomping him? People write off actually bullshit lines and shit all the time, like Goku being laser level or bullet level. You can do that with the latter, but not so easily with the former. You can write off Zabuza's statement using what I said or just ignore it as an inconsistency altogether without resorting to my headcanon to diffuse the confusion. There's notes on profiles that can state Naruto doesn't scale to Haku because Haku was holding back, or using "possibly" or "at most" more. There's many ways one can at least attempt to convey this information whilst trying to accomplish what you're doing now as well, and this wiki often refuses to do it. I mean, when we know the bare minimum of Adult Naruto's base AP, why don't you hit him with a "At Least Town Level, likely far higher", as an example, instead of leaving him as unknown. Because it's not an absolute unknown, when we know he should be at least as strong as his base already was. But whatever. That's y'all.

 

[Damage3245]

@UrsaBanks; it ain't a "bullshit excuse". We do this all the time with things that we declare are Outliers or Plot-Induced Stupidity / Character-Incuced Stupidity.

@Nehz; I don't believe other profiles should be affected by this.

 

[LordTracer]

@Damage But can it be applied for Haku now?

 

[ItsOnlyDanny3]

@Damage3245, I also disagree with the way of handling power levels this way, it's set up to harshly judge a lot of characters that live in an inconsistent verse, like Haku in this case. It's unfair to harshly rate a character who has shown that they're capable of more but the writer made the verse a mess

 

[Damage3245]

@ItsOnlyDanny3; doesn't the reverse also apply, that we might unfairly be overrating some characters just for the sake of powerscaling instead of looking at their feats with context?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

In other words, we need to make a compromise between both points of views that doesn't completely dismiss either of them?

 

[Damage3245]

@Nehz; ideally, yes.

My suggested compromise is that we can upgrade Haku (or give him an Edo Tensei key with the upgrades), but the other characters from Part 1 shouldn't be affected by it.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Him having the upgrade only while resurrected by Edo Tensei doesn't make much sense. It would probably make more sense to give his profile a note that explains the inconsistencies of his scaling.

 

[ItsOnlyDanny3]

@Damage3245, Yes, but I share UrsaBanks' opinion in that it shouldn't be up to us to make sure a verse is consistent when the writer messed it up. And with inconsistency in mind, I think the lesser evil of the two is to give characters the benefit of the doubt. This seems the most fair.

 

[Damage3245]

@ItsOnlyDanny3; that is part of our job. When we come across an Outlier for example, that is a case of the writer messing something up and we need to ignore it for the sake of making our profiles more consistent.

 

[ItsOnlyDanny3]

@Damage3245, While I do understand that counting outliers and PIS as valid would quickly make for non-sensical powerscaling in verses, on a VS Battle board I would prioritize that over downplaying characters unfairly.

I also don't think the compromise of only upgrading Haku's Edo Tensei key works, as that wouldn't make sense with how Edo Tensei works in the verse, where resurrected characters are weaker than their alive counterparts.

 

[LordTracer]

Also Zabuza's statements about Haku being stronger than him were from the Land of Waves arc, not when they were Edo.

 

[Damage3245]

Zabuza only says that Haku is more skilled than him, if I'm remembering the official translation correctly.

 

[LordTracer]

Zabuza said Haku had better jutsu than him, yeah, but he also said that even if Kakashi beat him, he wouldn't beat Haku.

 

[Damage3245]

Right, but by itself I don't think that statement carries a lot of weight.

 

[ItsOnlyDanny3]

It should be supported by Haku intercepting Part 2 Kakashi's Raikiri as an Edo

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I'd like someone to explain what inconsistencies would arise with the scaling through the Haku upgrade.

 

[Damage3245]

By the way, I've realized that this whole topic was discussed a couple of months ago too: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3782815

Worth checking out that thread.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I've checked that thread out and I'd say that the OP of this thread has provided more evidence than the OP of that thread.

 

[AstralKing7]

The op of this thread has definitely provided more evidence.

 

[LordTracer]

Also unless I just missed it, there wasn't any actual reason given in that thread for rejecting the idea of Haku holding back against Naruto and Sasuke.

 

[Kidkinsey]

i agree with the haku upgrade espacially for speed since he intercepted war arc kakashi

 

[LordTracer]

Bump

 

[Damage3245]

Also unless I just missed it, there wasn't any actual reason given in that thread for rejecting the idea of Haku holding back against Naruto and Sasuke.

I think that's fine to leave his speed justification as "higher" with Ice Mirrors since we don't know exactly how fast he was intercepting Kakashi.

For his AP and durability, they could be put as "possibly higher" but otherwise I think his current ratings should stay.

Being more skilled the Zabuza and Zabuza believing that Kakashi couldn't beat Haku aren't solid AP descriptions.

 

[LordTracer]

He moved in front of Kakashi before he could react. How could that be anything other than Sub-Rel?

How...? If Kakashi, a 7-C, cannot defeat Haku... then Haku should be 7-C. Especially since in the War Arc, Haku could block simultaneous kicks from two 7-Cs, one of which should be comparable to Part I Kakashi. Ergo, Haku should be 7-C.

Him being 8-B doesn't make sense, because he wasn't going all-out against Naruto and Sasuke, Scaling Haku to them doesn't make sense.

 

[Damage3245]

The point in the series ast which Kakashi becomes Sub-Rel isn't actually clear, we say "War Arc" but that's a bit of simplification for the sake of our profiles.

Simply not being able to defeat someone doesn't mean their AP is higher than yours.

And blocking two kicks is a durability feat, not an AP feat.

 

[LordTracer]

That just seems like semantics, to be honest.

It should mean their AP is relative to each other, and there's no reason to assume Zabuza meant anything different than that. If Kakashi cannot defeat Haku, the explanation that requires the least assumptions is that Haku is relative or superior in AP.

It's kinda both. If Haku was only LoW Sasuke level, he would have been immediately obliterated by Lee and Gai's attack. Also Haku was shown to be fighting Rock Lee, who is also 7-C. There's more evidence for Haku being 7-C than 8-B.

 

[LordTracer]

Bump

 

[ItsOnlyDanny3]

The point in the series ast which Kakashi becomes Sub-Rel isn't actually clear, we say "War Arc" but that's a bit of simplification for the sake of our profiles.
Simply not being able to defeat someone doesn't mean their AP is higher than yours.

And blocking two kicks is a durability feat, not an AP feat.

Then why does Kakashi get a pass that benefits his tier placement, and Haku does not while there's plenty of evidence to support he should scale to part II Kakashi?

 

[Damage3245]

@ItsOnlyDanny3; what do you mean Kakashi gets a pass?

 

[ItsOnlyDanny3]

Because he gets listed as Sub-relativistic when he's intercepted by a guy who's no more than Supersonic.

 

[Damage3245]

Haku is already rated as being "higher" when using his ice mirrors. We don't need to assign a specific speed to it, because doing so would introduce inconsistencies no matter how you look at it (like Sasuke being able to track Haku with a weaker Sharingan but Kakashi is unable to react).