Haku Upgrade

[ItsOnlyDanny3]

I'm sorry man, but quite honestly I think that's crap. Downplaying characters for the sake of keeping 'your' profiles consistent will make for inconsistent profiles anyway, if the source isn't consistent to begin with.

 

[LordTracer]

Haku was holding back against Sasuke... Sasuke was not reacting to a full speed Haku...

 

[ItsOnlyDanny3]

Haku's feats in the War Arc add weight to Zabuza's statements regarding Haku in the Land of Waves Arc. The issue is that as an Edo he should be weaker than he was in his prime. The explanation for Haku losing to Naruto and Sasuke in the Land of Waves arc is because he was very likely holding back, going by the scans that LordTracer provided.

The only shifty thing left is that Naruto managed to break Haku's mirrors in the Land of Waves arc, and he could react to and grab Haku while he was travelling through the mirrors.

When you look at the solid feats, character statements coinciding with said feats, and keeping in mind the implied mercy Haku showed the kids in the scans, Haku has a lot to back up his case. I don't see the sense in dismissing all this, and it's definitely not worth 'keeping our profiles consistent' over.

 

[Damage3245]

@ItsOnlyDanny3; I don't think that Kabuto's version of the Edo Tensei were ever stated to be weaker than they were when they were alive. Only Orochimaru's.

And I'm not opposed to Haku himself recieving an upgrade, I'm opposed to it affecting anyone else such as Naruto and Sasuke. I also think we don't need to list his speed in the mirrors as Sub-Rel.

Haku's AP shouldn't fully scale IMO. His feats in the war arc are just durability feats at best.

 

[LordTracer]

He literally clashed with Rock Lee and Zabuza said Haku > Kakashi. His AP should scale.

 

[ItsOnlyDanny3]

@Damage3245, Actually, the original Edo Tensei, made by the second hokage, had the problem of the huge power difference. Orochimaru's version lessened the power gap, and Kabuto's version was nearly perfect, but the power difference is still there.

 

[Damage3245]

@LordTracer; Zabuza said that Kakashi wouldn't be able to beat Haku. That's not the same thing as his AP scaling to Kakashi.

At best we should just say he is "Likely higher".

 

[ItsOnlyDanny3]

Can you explain to me what catastrophe would occur if we let Haku's AP scale to Kakashi's?

Also from what I see Haku's upgrade affecting the other characters can easily be ignored, because of the implication that Haku went easy on Sasuke and Naruto.

 

[LordTracer]

@Damage For what reason would you assume Zabuza meant that in a way unrelated to AP?

 

[ItsOnlyDanny3]

It's an excuse in order to keep the scale that this site makes up for the verses consistent

 

[LordTracer]

Bump

 

[LordTracer]

Bump

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Intercepting Raikiri should be far higher than simply higher than Supersonic.

 

[ItsOnlyDanny3]

Yeah, saying Haku is Supersonic but faster with mirrors is like saying 'with the 8th Gate opened, Might Guy is faster than a race car' lol. Both are technically correct, but they don't properly convery how fast they truly are.

EDIT: Okay, that's a crap comparison lol nvm

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Could someone summarise the inconsistencies that the proposals in the OP would have for the scaling? That seems to be the only problem regarding the upgrade as far as I can tell.

 

[Damage3245]

Well that depends, who do you actually want to scale to Haku?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I was asking what general problems with the scaling would occur if Haku were to get this upgrade. That wasn't asked with a specific character in mind. The scaling seems to be the problem when it comes to applying the suggested statistics to Haku based on what I read in the comments.

 

[LordTracer]

There's only three people that would scale to Haku being upgraded. Kyuubi chakra Naruto, One-Tailed Naruto and CS2 Sasuke. Kyuubi chakra Naruto being 7-C has a supporting statement of his chakra being "too strong" to be Kakashi, and One-Tailed Naruto/CS2 Sasuke would only get speed upgrades.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Is there a problem that prevents that from being applied?

 

[Damage3245]

It is a pretty huge inconsistency that 1-Tomoe Sharingan Sasuke can keep up with an opponent travelling at Sub-Rel speeds, and One-Tailed Naruto can react to and catch someone travelling at Sub-Rel speeds when his older self with more tails is just MHS+.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Wouldn't that just mean his other tails scale above that?

 

[LordTracer]

Damage, once again: Haku was HOLDING BACK. Sasuke did not react to a full speed Haku. And Kyuubi chakra Naruto did not react to Haku when he was moving through the mirrors, he caught Haku before he could go back into a mirror.

 

[ItsOnlyDanny3]

Yeah, if you watch the fight, Haku attempts to pile Naruto into the ground from above, coming to a full stop. Even if the time Haku was on the ground isn't specified, he definitely shouldn't have been moving at full speed at that moment, even if he was giving it his all

 

[Nehz_XZX]

It is a pretty huge inconsistency that 1-Tomoe Sharingan Sasuke can keep up with an opponent travelling at Sub-Rel speeds, and One-Tailed Naruto can react to and catch someone travelling at Sub-Rel speeds when his older self with more tails is just MHS+.

The Naruto who catched Haku didn't even have one tail. The instances of him using Kurama's chakra that have actually tails would simply scale above that.

 

[Damage3245]

The Naruto who catched Haku didn't even have one tail. The instances of him using Kurama's chakra that have actually tails would simply scale above that.

That's even worse then.

And Haku did attack Naruto from the mirrors.

 

[LordTracer]

Haku threw senbon at him while inside the mirror, and Naruto's chakra deflected it. That's it. Not once did Naruto actually react to Haku reflecting himself from across the mirrors, which is what's Sub-Rel. In fact, Haku on the ground even said; "Damn, gotta get to the next mirror!" before Naruto grabbed him. So no, neither Kyuubi chakra Naruto nor One-Tailed Naruto would be Sub-Rel.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

That's even worse then.

And Haku did attack Naruto from the mirrors.

Well, there exists the argument of Haku not going all out and therefore not having actually used his full speed.

 

[Damage3245]

@Nehz; I think there's a difference between a character holding themself back a bit, and slowing themselves down to be hundreds of times slower.

Zabuza was shocked that Sasuke could keep up with Haku's speed, and would have noticed if Haku was fighting hundreds of times slower than he normally would.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

@Nehz; I think there's a difference between a character holding themself back a bit, and slowing themselves down to be hundreds of times slower.

Zabuza was shocked that Sasuke could keep up with Haku's speed, and would have noticed if Haku was fighting hundreds of times slower than he normally would.

I see, that seems reasonable. Should we consider that instance an outlier?

 

[ItsOnlyDanny3]

@Nehz; I think there's a difference between a character holding themself back a bit, and slowing themselves down to be hundreds of times slower.

Zabuza was shocked that Sasuke could keep up with Haku's speed, and would have noticed if Haku was fighting hundreds of times slower than he normally would.

I see, that seems reasonable. Should we consider that instance an outlier?

If you ask me, Sasuke keeping up with Haku should be the outlier if you look at the War Arc

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I see, that seems reasonable. Should we consider that instance an outlier?
If you ask me, Sasuke keeping up with Haku should be the outlier if you look at the War Arc

That is exactly what I suggested.

 

[LordTracer]

Zabuza was shocked that Sasuke could keep up with Haku's speed, and would have noticed if Haku was fighting hundreds of times slower than he normally would.

Zabuza did notice though. He was the one that said Haku was holding back in the first place.

 

[ItsOnlyDanny3]

My bad

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Zabuza did notice though. He was the one that said Haku was holding back in the first place.

That doesn't explain why he was shocked though.

 

[Damage3245]

@ItsOnlyDanny3; instead of backscaling Haku from the War Arc, why don't we consider their performance in the War Arc to be an outlier?

 

[ItsOnlyDanny3]

@Damage3245, because, once again, Zabuza's statements support the feats from the War Arc.

 

[LordTracer]

Haku has several feats in the War Arc and only one thing potentially contradicting it. If you were to consider the War Arc the outlier, you'd be taking a single feat over several consistent feats and statements for... no real reason.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

For Haku we have Zabuza's statements, Haku intercepting Kakashi's Raikiri in the same Arc and Haku's performance in the War Arc. Speaking against him is Sasuke apparently keeping up with Haku who presumably didn't go all out.

For Sasuke possibly scaling to Haku we have Zabuza being shocked about him keeping up with Haku. Speaking against this is pretty much the rest of Part I where he is consistently portrayed as being weaker than Kakashi and the rest of the jonins before leaving the village.

I'm pretty sure that the instance with Sasuke is the outlier.

 

[LordTracer]

Plus Haku was able to intercept Zabuza's shuriken in the Land of Waves Arc.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Plus Haku was able to intercept Zabuza's shuriken in the Land of Waves Arc.

That would also be supporting evidence. With what is already present in Land of Waves Arc we wouldn't even need to backscale him from the War Arc with the exception of his speed with the mirrors.