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Haku Upgrade

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Okay, that is a fair point, I'll give you that.

Okay, that's just what you think then, doesn't mean what was directly said in the manga is invalid.

Yes, I'm well aware of the context, that does not change my point. It is perfectly reasonable to get concerned over someone that could harm you while you're holding back. If you, say, don't stop suppressing yourself quick enough or you're distracted, the other person could do some damage to you. And it wouldn't be out of the question to apply that to Haku, especially since Zabuza did say his heart was splitting in two over having to fight them, which very much could distract him.

No, it really doesn't. Nobody said it "being a scene" was what mad it not an outlier. There's several examples of Haku squaring up with 7-Cs while weaker than he was in his prime (plus a statement from Zabuza in the LoW arc) and without the emotional handicap that Zabuza stated he had.

That just makes no sense whatsoever. Zabuza having one fight against War Arc Kakashi despite being overpowered by Part I Kakashi is obviously an outlier, since there's nothing else that would imply he's consistently on that level. Haku does. That doesn't immediately make Zabuza's thing not an outlier, they aren't the same character and have different context.
 
Then I guess we just disagree on this point.

Holding back doesn't make your durability suddenly plummet. Again, Kakashi right now is 7-C, while Sasuke is 8-B and Naruto above this for destroying the mirrors. That's around a difference of nearly 600 times from baseline 8-B to baseline 7-C. So one, why does holding back make your durability go down massively and 2, how does holding back make your durability massively plummet in the first place?

Not really, is just one pretty constant battle. Zabuza's statement loses weight when the entire battle with Naruto and Sasuke puts into doubt the simple fact he's even close to comparable to Kakashi whether in durability, in strength, and speed. Especially in speed, as he has no reason and gains nothing by moving slower. This is especially obvious by the fact he didn't mind abusing his Demonic Ice MIrror's speed to harass Sasuke and Naruto. So we have a contradicted statement and a battle where Zabuza's power is already scaled incorrectly, versus an entire battle where Sasuke can keep up with his moves and Naruto, way below Kakashi even with Kyuubi Chakra, outspeeds, overpowers and can actually damage someone that is supposedly 7-C.

There are a couple of instances of Zabuza matching Kakashi, then the whole strategy where he tries to cut him while Haku takes the blow, which Kakashi deliberately tries to evade and even gets slightly cut by it. Haku has taking a blow from Guy and Lee, and then killing so no name fodders from the army. Both have little in the way of proof, and the "proof" that Haku is on that level is a single statement from Zabuza about Kakashi not being able to win against him despite his much weaker, much slower genin being able to match him, proving this statement pretty misguided at best.
 
People have suppressed their durability in various fictions before, that's not very uncommon.

If you want to talk about speed, Haku has far more MHS+ speed feats than those on the level of Genin Sasuke. He blocked Zabuza's shuriken with his senbon, he reacted to Gai and Lee simultaneous, he reacted to Sai's ink birds, he could perceive Kakashi charging towards Zabuza even before using the mirror to intercept him. More showings of Haku that are consistently above that of Genin Sasuke and Naruto. You mean we have a statement from Zabuza that is supported by multiple feats Haku performed in the War Arc while weaker than in his prime against one fight with Naruto and Sasuke (where Haku overpowered them throughout most of it by the way). Zabuza being inconsistent still does not matter to Haku at all when they're two entirely different characters with entirely different showings. Didn't we just go over how it's only your opinion Kyuubi Chakra Naruto is beneath Kakashi despite it being stated in the manga? You can't use that as a point then.

You forgot that Haku was shown fighting Lee, who is 7-C, as well, further supporting Zabuza's statement...
 
Which, unless it applies to Naruto, doesn't matter. You would have to prove they can do that.

Which are all things that happen in the scene that is considered an outlier. You are taking them all like individual evidence, which is not, the only "evidence" is matching people like Guy and Lee. You keep giving priority to that scene for some reason, without actually explaining why it would be more believable than what we saw before - that Sasuke who is slower than Kakashi even with Sharingan can keep up with Haku and a Naruto that is massively weaker and slower than Kakashi outspeeds and damages him. Why would Zabuza's statement speak louder than what actually happens, and louder than Haku's own thoughts which express worry towards two kids that shouldn't be able to hurt him no matter what they do and shouldn't be able to even perceive his speed even without the mirrors amp?

And you forgot that Kakashi says Sasuke is a genius too and won't be defeated, which if we just assume Zabuza is speaking the truth despite all the evidence, means Sasuke should scale to Kakashi... and don't give me that "nuh uh he wouldn't, obviously he doesn't scale!" answer. You can't cherry pick to say all the other inconsistencies obviously are still inconsistent then come and say this doesn't apply to Haku, so Zabuza's statement is totally legit against all signs of the contrary and what happens in the War Arc makes sense.
 
No, I'm taking Haku and Zabuza's showings as two different showings because they're two different characters. You keep saying you should take a single fight with Genin Sasuke over two fights Haku had in the War Arc, plus Zabuza's statement for... no real reason, to be honest. And once again, you can't keep using Kyuubi Chakra Naruto affecting Haku as evidence when we literally just went over how it's only your opinio that he's beneath Kakashi. And as I'm pretty sure I explained already, Zabuza's statements are supported by feats that Haku performed without an emotional handicap.

Can you provide evidence that Kakashi knows Haku's full power? Because if not, that example of yours is not the same thing at all. And if you wanna claim I'm cherry-picking, I could say you're doing the same thing since you're taking one instance as consistent when there's like four things in the War Arc that contradict it.
 
At this point, I don't even care if LoW Haku is still 8-B, but there is absolutely no reason for Edo Haku not to be 7-C.
 
@LordTracer

If Land of Waves Arc Haku doesn't get upgraded to 7-C, then Haku in the War Arc shouldn't be 7-C either due to how Edo Tensei works.
 
@LordTracer

If Land of Waves Arc Haku doesn't get upgraded to 7-C, then Haku in the War Arc shouldn't be 7-C either due to how Edo Tensei works.
 
I'm well aware of how Edo Tensei works, but you could just explain it with Haku not being emotionally handicapped like he was in the LoW Arc or something.
 
That would be the same as acknowledging that he was actually on Kakashi's level in the Land of Waves Arc and if that wasn't accepted, then that can obviously not be put on his profile.
 
Obviously I'd have to reword his justifications if it were only scaled to Edo Haku.
 
Well, the reworded justification would have to somehow justify the power gap between his key in the Land of Waves Arc and his key in the War Arc withhout implying that he was actually on Kakashi's level while he was alive since that wasn't accepted. Can you do that?
 
I just gave an example of a potential explanation for that. Edo Haku was not emotionally handicapped like he was throughout the entire LoW Arc, which is why he appears to be stronger.
 
The explanation implies that Haku was handicapped to the point of dropping from Kakashi's level to Sasuke's level and that was rejected and should therefore not be on the profile. If the explanation was actually alright to add, then we could just straight up upgrade Haku to Kakashi's level which would make a key for the War Arc superfluous.
 
No, because in the LoW Arc, he was dropped to that point throughout the entire arc. Which is why it would be separate from the War Arc and have different statistics.
 
SageF said:
Does Haku have Body flicker to make him at higher speed.
Click to expand...
He has it listed in his Powers and Abilities section. It might be worth mentioning in the speed section that his speed is higher with Shunshin (Body Flicker). The same would apply for Guy and Kakashi.
 
Could someone tell me from where Kakashi and Guy have Speed Enhancement via Shunshin? Also why is Kakashi's ability to replace himself with other objects listed as a justification for Shapeshifting?
 
I know that he definitely has Shapeshifting but Shapeshifting isn't replacing oneself with other objects. Isn't that more along the lines of a kind of Teleportation?
 
It's referring to the body replacement technique which is a prerequisite for graduating from the academy I believe, so that's why all ninjas have it on their profile
 
I already knew that much and I am pretty sure that it isn't Shapeshifting.
 
Shapeshifting is due to transformation technique, similar to Naruto's sexy jutsu. I believe that's also a prerequisite for graduating from the academy. All ninjas can use it
 
Nehz XZX said:
Could someone tell me from where Kakashi and Guy have Speed Enhancement via Shunshin? Also why is Kakashi's ability to replace himself with other objects listed as a justification for Shapeshifting?
Click to expand...
Oh sorry I didn't see this.... yeah ur right shapeshifting is transformation technique not body replacement
 
I didn't mind. If you hadn't realised it on your own, I would have simply corrected you.
 
Nehz XZX said:
As far as I know that wasn't accepted so you can't add that.
Click to expand...
I'm just saying that could be a potential way to explain why War Arc Haku has better showings than LoW Arc Haku.
 
That potential way of explaining it wasn't accepted and if it gets accepted then Haku in LoW Arc has to be upgraded as well which would make an additional key superfluous.
 
@UchihaSlayer96

Somebody should edit Kakashi's profile to reflect the fact that the Body Replacement Technique isn't Shapeshifting.
 
I am very aware it wasn't accepted, I'm just saying that would be one way to explain it.
 
Is there still something that someone wants to discuss in this thread?
 
I'm not sure if there's anything left to cover. Did anyone contact Kep?
 
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