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Grey Hulk and Thing Revision

He is not consistently shown as equal to them. He is usually just treated as an outmatched inconvenience as far as I recall.

Again, Marvel runs on Plot-Induced Stupidity where everybody can fight everybody, despite massive differences in raw power. It would help an awful lot if we all try to make an effort to work with that in mind to find solutions, rather than make our profiles less reliable by scaling everybody to everybody.
 
Yes Ant, but if examples are given to explain why it is not PIS, there does have to be reasons given to ignore them
 
That's not what the mountain of scans I sent earlier shows. In fact, they show him going blow-for-blow with Thor and Hyperion, and he is stated twice, one of these statements coming from Hercules, to be just as strong as Thor.
 
Well, the problem is that I am very overworked and going by memory, as I do not have the time to research for lots of scans for lots of characters, but I have read several thousand Marvel Comics since I was small, and remember them fairly well.
 
Anyway, I think that it seems most reliable to only scale characters that have been consistently shown as equal or superior in the case of Marvel Comics, as if we go by ones that have repeatedly been the outmatched underdog or an inconvenience, we would get closer to a "scaling everybody to everybody" situation that the Power-scaling Rules for Marvel and DC Comics page warns about.
 
And Wonder Man is consistently shown to be nearly equal to the 4-Bs. Even when shown to be at the disadvantage, he is still capable of fighting relatively evenly with them. Same with The Thing. And Grey Hulk, to a slightly lesser extent.
 
Sometimes, yes. Other times he is very easily defeated. However, that is the way that much weaker characters fighting much stronger opponents with enormously higher feats are usually treated in Marvel Comics. It usually takes many tiers of difference for a one-shot to be in question, or the writers would risk to severely piss off their readers/fans of the characters.
 
He is comparable to them more often than not, at least based on what's actually been shown here.
 
I mean Stan Lee once stated outright that the philosophy of Marvel matchup results is not logic, it is whoever the writer feels like letting win.

Al Ewing has even run with this ongoing plot convention recently by having Eternity state that within the Marvel Universe all characters are metaphysically equal, and this concept is embodied in a mask that gives whoever wears it completely equal raw power to his/her opponents.
 
(Mind you, I came up with the same concept as Ewing over 12 years ago when I created a fanfiction character called "The Veteran", who had plot-induced stupidity/"the theory of narrative causality" and "the rule of cool" as his actual superpowers, and was handled as a mixed satire of war-mongering jingoism and various plot conventions. He was basically intended to be a sentient idea and the metaphysical embodiment of the darkest side of the heroic myth as a Platonic concept.)
 
GojiBoyForever said:
I still haven't seen anything that outright refutes a possibly rating. Apologies if that came off as rude.
Click to expand...
No problem at all. I am just trying to explain to everybody that Marvel does not work like most of the other fictions that we feature here, and that we need to keep this firmly in mind when tiering the characters.
 
I'm aware of that, but by that logic you could write off literally any matchup that's ever happened in the entirety of Marvel's history. It still remains that Wonder Man has more consistently been able to fight on par with the big-name 4-Bs and be nearly equal to them in power, as shown by his feats and stated more than once.
 
I'm still with Matt here, that the Thing shouldn't really be scaled from Hulk. It's a serious Hulk that regularly matches other 4-B characters like Thor or Silver Surfer. And in turn, all of these characters are way stronger than the Thing. Hulk also regularly oneshots enemies who are considered more than a match for the combined might of the Fantastic Four.
 
Even though he's fought Hulk more times than Thor has, and has fought several beings on Hulk's level on several occasions, including The Silver Surfer...
 
@Tracer

Being rather outmatched half of the time and being on the losing side of a fight the other half is probably not enough for Marvel Comics scaling. It would be for other fictions, but not here. If he had been shown as superior half of the time and equal the other half, that would likely be fine though.
 
All of Matt's panels are lacking context. I'll respond in a moment.
 
Barely outmatched. And again, on several of these occasions he has stalemated these people he's fighting, been stated to rival them, or in some cases (Ultron, Abomination, Red Hulk), defeated them.
 
@Tracer

But he is still usually treated as inferior, not equal or superior. Again, that is usually how characters with much less raw power are handled when up against superior opponents in Marvel Comics.

In fact, the only Marvel writer I can recall who has even tried to circumwent this tradition, and have far more popular characters lose badly en masse against far more powerful opponents, is probably Jim Starlin. For all his personality flaws and disrespect toward other writers, at least he tried to be somewhat logical in that regard.
 
Antvasima said:
Wonder Man is one of the physically strongest of the 4-B characters that should nevertheless be downgraded. Ikaris (Marvel Comics), Sersi (Marvel Comics), and Thena (Marvel Comics) are usually not portrayed as anywhere near as powerful in terms of raw power for example.
Click to expand...
Agreed. As I explained with scans in my post above, he isn't anywhere near as strong as 4-B and gets one-shot by Thor and Hulk multiple times.
 
Antvasima said:
@Tracer

But he is still usually treated as inferior, not equal or superior. Again, that is usually how characters with much less raw power are handled when up against superior opponents in Marvel Comics.
Click to expand...
Clearly not, because as I showed, he has defeated these beings, matched them in power on numerous occasions, and has two statements directly saying that he rivals Thor, one of these coming from Hercules, a consistent rival of Thor.
 
Again, for safety reasons, I think that only Marvel Comics characters that are consistently treated as equal or superior to other characters of higher tiers should scale to them. I know that this is stricter than for other fictions, but it is likely necessary in this case, due to that the setting does not work in a normal manner.

What do you think about this suggestion Matthew?
 
Sigh, and Wonder Man is consistently shown like that... shall I repost the numerous scans I sent displaying him in such a manner?
 
I don't think that he is consistently shown as roughly equal or superior to Thor, Sentry, or the Silver Surfer, which are the characters with actual 4-B level feats or reliable statements.
 
Sentry is far beyond basically any other 4-B not named Blue Marvel, so not really sure why he's being mentioned, and Wonder Man has very consistent scaling to Thor and those that rival or surpass him. And as I keep having to restate, he was stated twice to rival Thor, one of these statements coming from Hercules, who knows Thor's power.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
How he is 4-B is beyond me. Thor one-shot him multiple times, he got stomped by multiple versions of The Hulk and by Gladiator, and he struggles with Thing and Namor who aren't 4-B either.
Click to expand...
I've removed the stuff I don't need to address, such as getting curbstomped by Ultron or equaling 4-B characters. Also, you can't just say Namor and The Thing aren't 4-B because you haven't even proven that.

1. Wonder Man has stated in the past that Thor has the edge with his hammer, which Hulk has also claimed on multiple occasions. Also, the fight actually went on for a lot longer than that, there's just a cut between the first and last two panels.

2. That's not what happened. Back in this era, Wonder Man could not fly without a jet pack. Gladiator destroys it, leaving him unable to fly, and strikes him while he's unable to control his flight. Wonder Man then punches him away, which Gladiator is unaffected by. Gladiator then uses his frost breath to freeze the air around Wonder Man and punches him through the planet's core while he's distracted.

Plus, Gladiator has shown on multiple occasions that he's superior to Thor (including Jane Foster and Eric Masterson) physically, but not with Mjolnir.

3/4. That lacks a lot of context. Wonder Man and Iron Man are actually beating down the Hulk at first while pulling their punches, before he starts recovering very fast. Hulk then clearly gets stronger with anger, as Hercules, Namor, Doc Samson, Wonder Man and Iron Man have to take him down. In #322, Hulk overpowers Avengers roster.

5. He says "I'm glad to hear you're enjoying the fight as much as I am." Wonder Man also specifically says he wonders who's stronger, but knows who's smarter.

6. For some reason I can't find this issue.

7. Who specifically says "I'm not that green manchild you're used to bullying." Also, Red Hulk is clearly stronger than the Hulk's normal baseline, as his first act was to overpower Abomination and kill him with a gun. This same Red Hulk even overpowers Sentry and Captain Marvel.

8. He's still able to make Hercules bleed. Anyway, Wonder Man is generally depowered in this issue, even to the point where Ares knocks him out.

9. Adam Warlock has a weapon and Wonder Man is only stunned, as he doesn't want to go into a blind rage. If Adam's profile is correct, he is also superior to Thor in this era.
 
I disagree, in the context of the stories Wonder Man is treated at Hulk and Thor levels. He's just the easiest to beat around due to him being a secondary character. Putting him lower than 4-B is highly inaccurate to the logic of the character.

Honestly alotta Marvel characters like Hercules, Wrecking Crew, Juggernaut, U-Foes, Ghost Rider, Doctor Doom, Wonder Man and even Celestials are straight up unreliable to scale off from, since again, secondary, crossover-oriented or undefined characters like them get taken out by basically everyone in Marvel. I've seen many instances of these characters being labelled "unscalable" to the rest of the cast across other platforms and I reckon it's better to do that instead of giving inaccurate tiers for characters.

I know the argument that "every Marvel character is unscaleable like that" but logically speaking, if a character can take out Hulk or Thor consistently, it's 20x more reliable than taking taking out fodder 4-Bs like Wrecking Crew and U-Foes "consistently"
 
And not to sound like a broken record or anything, but they are the main focus of this thread so: there still hasn't been a single scan posted to contradict Thing and Grey Hulk having a 'possibly 4-B.'
 
They've all been asked. Qawsedf and APM have replied.
 
I agree your logic should apply to some characters. Just definitely not Wonder Man.
 
I'll help in the afternoon. I'm going back to bed now.
 
I looked through earlier, ones I def have an issue with (at least atm while Thing isn't 4-B), are the ones that scale to Godzilla (Marvel Comics). Other than that... Hiro-Kala (Marvel Comics) has no 4-B scaling for his AP. That's basically it. I don't see anything really wrong with the Eternals being 4-B, but I guess they're kinda questionable?
 
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