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Grey Hulk and Thing Revision

I debunked most of your contextless scans about Wonder Man. That's good enough.

You're literally the one ignoring context and the wider Marvel universe just because you think they're outliers.
 
LordTracer said:
You can't just call literally everything an outlier, especially when you haven't posted any scans in contention.
Click to expand...
I'm not calling everything given that I think Lower Tier 5 ratings aren't outliers.
 
ByAsura said:
I debunked most of your contextless scans about Wonder Man. That's good enough.
No, you're declaring them as outliers. You're literally the one ignoring context and the wider Marvel universe.
Click to expand...
Please. They're not contextless. They're full fight scenes, don't lie. The people ignoring the wider Marvel universe are the ones thinking any character remotely above The Rhino in strength should be Solar System level through nine layers of scaling.
 
You're calling literally everything that disagrees with your view outliers or PIS and not giving any actual evidence to support that.
 
That doesn't mean they have every ounce of context in the comic. For example, Red Hulk was portrayed as similar in power to Sentry in that comic, and Hulk was vastly superior to most of the Avengers in Hulk #316 and #322. Also, once again, in the first example we don't even see the whole fight.

You yourself took fight scenes directly out of context; Wonder Man lost to Gladiator because he couldn't fly, and he didn't have to resort to his intellect due to being weaker than Hulk.

The "wider Marvel universe". You mean a few anti-feats? Also, Rhino fought the Hulk on one occasion (in 1970, no less) when he was amped by gamma radiation for the very first time, so it's not even comparable to what I'm arguing for.
 
I am referring to that you are largely relying on scaling chains in a setting where everybody can fight everybody.
 
And...? This isn't like saying Spider-Man is 4-B because he beat Firelord one time. Grey Hulk, Wonder Man, and Thing have all consistently fought, defeated and stalemated beings on the 4-B level and there has been no actual comic evidence shown to go against that.
 
LordTracer said:
And...? This isn't like saying Spider-Man is 4-B because he beat Firelord one time. Grey Hulk, Wonder Man, and Thing have all consistently fought, defeated and stalemated beings on the 4-B level and there has been no actual comic evidence shown to go against that.
Click to expand...
Spider-MAn beating Firelord is unironically one of the most consistent feats in Spiderman in how many times it's referenced, mentioned, flashbacked to and joked about.

Precisely because it's bullshit.

Also in terms of importance, that's like saying Hercules should be 3-A because lifting the universe is part of his friggin origin story.
 
Something being referenced doesn't make it consistent, or not an outlier. And what does Hercules lifting the universe have to do with... literally anything I said?

Btw, do you actually have any scans to contradict Thing and Grey Hulk being 4-B? Cause you still haven't provided any.
 
Well, we need to decide whether we should try to slowly figure out which characters that have exaggerated statistics and what to rescale them to, or just make almost everybody 4-B, which seems very unreliable in my humble opinion.
 
Well, more than one person has already gone through the list of tier 4s and gone over who should be downgraded. And really, this wouldn't make "almost everybody" 4-B. I went over why Thing being 4-B wouldn't cause any real scaling issues at all a while ago, and I could give some 4-B feats from Doctor Doom, who scales to Thing if that needs more support.
 
Well, in lack of better options, I suppose that we could upgrade them for the time being, for the sake of consistency, and then Matthew could downgrade them and several other 4-B characters later, after he has had the time to prepare a revision thread.
 
That works. May I post the 4-B feats from Doom first though?
 
If you wish.
 
 
If the Thing is upgraded, I don't think it's necessary to upgrade all the 5-A to 4-B if you ask me. Colossus shouldn't, for example. The same can be said about Korg, who should be listed as unknown for the same reasons of Caiera, unless he has another feat than contending briefly with the Thing. Not sure about Black Bolt. Does he have better feats than fighting Namor and the Thing?
 
Yeah, I already explained why Colossus definitely shouldn't be 4-B. The links on Korg's profile are dead so yeah, he can be Unknown. Though if someone could replace those links, I could see him at 4-B. Black Bolt should be 4-B physically as well as with the scream, he has physically fought with Hulk, Thor, Gladiator and other people that should be 4-B, which I can provide scans for if necessary.
 
No one advocated for Colossus scaling

Black Bold has hurt Thanos and the Hulk (So a Varies depending on how hard he's pushing his powers could work)

I also remember him creating a rift seven parsecs wide
 
Also Super-Skrull should also just be 4-B with this upgrade now.
 
I mean, that could work too. But considering his feats of fighting Thor, Surfer and She-Hulk on top of scaling to the 4-B Thing (and Invisible Woman who scales above Thing), I think a plain 4-B would make sense. I'd be fine with 'Likely 4-B' tho.
 
I posted a lot of those earlier, except #4 (and I can't tell who he's fighting in that one) and #7.
 
Doctor Doom's problem is that he's like Dr Strange and Iron Man put together. He's ridiculously variable depending on what type of armor and what spells he's using.
 
I have to agree with Matt on this one.

@Hellbeast AP, at the very most, as he could disable it with his own power.

Edit: Another T-Bomb feat is scaled to him, so I suppose it could be added as justification.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Doctor Doom's problem is that he's like Dr Strange and Iron Man put together. He's ridiculously variable depending on what type of armor and what spells he's using.
Click to expand...
Still I feel the page should adress 4-B with certain spells (Since he's already 4-B with tech)
 
I know some people still see the upgrades as exagerated (I put myself in that bag, and not because The Thing, the Thing could be 4-B, but because via scaling that would upgrade some characters that aren't that powerful. For example, I don't see Glorian as a 4-B character), so I have an idea which could be the midpoint between both positions: Instead of upgrade them, we just put a "possibly/likely 4-B" to all of them, and only to characters that, beside having so many fights against Namor, the Thing and Grey Hulk, have fought characters as powerful as Thor. For example, character A has a big number of ties against the Thing, but nothing more, so said character would be just 5-A. Character B, on the other hand, has fights mostly with the Thing, bu has fought against She-Hulk, Hercules and Silver Surfer sometimes, so character "B" could apply to the "possibly/likely 4-B". What do you think?

 
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