Gremmy Thoumeaux vs Ji Ning - Battle for 4th Strongest High 6-A (Non-Smurf)

[Hellscream]

The fact that he can erase himself from Gremmy's memory. Which me and Deceived were already debating above....

Guenael lee also has an ability like that, what makes you think that it'd work on gremmy?

 

[Planck69]

Guaenael lee also has an ability like that, what makes you think that it'd work on gremmy?

The fact that he doesn't resist it.

 

[Hellscream]

Did you read what i said?
Guenael lee also has an ability that erases his existence from his opponents memory, gremmy just erased him.

 

[Damage3245]

Did you read what i said?
Guenael lee also has an ability that erases his existence from his opponents memory, gremmy just erased him.

So what? Lee didn't have the ability active when Gremmy did that.

 

[Hellscream]

And the way that gremmy's ability works, if he erases himself from gremmy's memory, who says that his existence doesn't get erased either as a counter-effect from the visionary?

 

[Damage3245]

And the way that gremmy's ability works, if he erases himself from gremmy's memory, who says that his existence doesn't get erased either as a counter-effect from the visionary?

It wouldn't, because Ji Ning's existence isn't dependent on Gremmy remembering him.

 

[Planck69]

Did you read what i said?
Guenael lee also has an ability that erases his existence from his opponents memory, gremmy just erased him.

I did. Him having the ability doesn't mean anything if it's never been used against Gremmy and the latter hasn't resisted it.

And the way that gremmy's ability works, if he erases himself from gremmy's memory, who says that his existence doesn't get erased either as a counter-effect from the visionary?

Has this ever happened or been described as happening? The "erasure" itself just keeps Gremmy from recognising Ning's Primaltwin since the former hasn't seen or been aware of it yet, anyway.

 

[Purgy]

Unconventional Resistance to Mind Manipulation (Minds in Bleach are intertwined with their souls)

Would this change anything?

 

[Hellscream]

I did. Him having the ability doesn't mean anything if it's never been used against Gremmy and the latter hasn't resisted it.


Has this ever happened or been described as happening? The "erasure" itself just keeps Gremmy from recognising Ning's Primaltwin since the former hasn't seen or been aware of it yet, anyway.

Gremmy's ability turns anything he imagines into reality, which was also explained to be counter-productive towards him, for example if he imagined his opponent to be unbeatable or something, or to be way stronger than they actually are, that'd become a reality, if he imagined himself being defeated, that'd become a reality as well. He could essentially imagine himself out of existence by accident.

So, by erasing himself from gremmy's memory it's very possible that the existence from the primaltwin gets erased as a counter-effect

 

[Planck69]

Would this change anything?

The same applies to cultivators (there's no distinction between mind and soul, strengthening the souls strengthens the mind and vice-versa etc.) so not really.

 

[Damage3245]

Gremmy's ability turns anything he imagines into reality, which was also explained to be counter-productive towards him, for example if he imagined his opponent to be unbeatable or something, or to be way stronger than they actually are, that'd become a reality, if he imagined himself being defeated, that'd become a reality as well. He could essentially imagine himself out of existence by accident.

So, by erasing himself from gremmy's memory it's very possible that the existence from the primaltwin gets erased as a counter-effect

That's not how it works.

 

[Hellscream]

That's not how it works.

It is

Feel free to argue, instead of saying that's not how it works.

 

[Planck69]

Gremmy's ability turns anything he imagines into reality, which was also explained to be counter-productive towards him, for example if he imagined his opponent to be unbeatable or something, or to be way stronger than they actually are, that'd become a reality, if he imagined himself being defeated, that'd become a reality as well. He could essentially imagine himself out of existence by accident.

So, by erasing himself from gremmy's memory it's very possible that the existence from the primaltwin gets erased as a counter-effect

He keeps himself from being in his memory to begin with. Gremmy has no knowledge of Ming's Primaltwin to begin with. This just keeps that memory from forming.

And unless there's actual statements that such a thing can happen, I'm not gonna take a hypothetical possibility as a fact. By this logic, anything he forgets ceases to be.

 

[Damage3245]

It is

It's not. Characters don't start blipping out of existence if Gremmy forgets about them. You'd be implying that everyone in the world is consciously held in Gremmy's memory and nothing would exist unless he was imagining it.

 

[Hellscream]

It's not. Characters don't start blipping out of existence if Gremmy forgets about them. You'd be implying that everyone in the world is consciously held in Gremmy's memory and nothing would exist unless he was imagining it.

that's not my argument at all? If they're not in gremmy's mind / memory to begin with then why'd they get affected by his reality warping?
Im saying that if a certain being is in gremmy's memory, and suddenly gets erased, the effect of them being erased is very plausible, especially considering "he could no longer imagine a future" in which guanael lee exists.

His literal power is turning his imagination into reality, so if an opponent erases himself from his imagination, what would happen to them?

 

[Loyd]

What can Ji Ning do if Gremmy with a thought imagines his death?

 

[Hellscream]

He keeps himself from being in his memory to begin with. Gremmy has no knowledge of Ming's Primaltwin to begin with. This just keeps that memory from forming.

And unless there's actual statements that such a thing can happen, I'm not gonna take a hypothetical possibility as a fact. By this logic, anything he forgets ceases to be.

If he can keep himself from ever being in his memory to begin with, then that's a different story.
Gremmy's reality warping wouldn't apply then.

 

[Damage3245]

that's not my argument at all? If they're not in gremmy's mind / memory to begin with then why'd they get affected by his reality warping?
Im saying that if a certain being is in gremmy's memory, and suddenly gets erased, the effect of them being erased is very plausible, especially considering "he could no longer imagine a future" in which guanael lee exists.

His literal power is turning his imagination into reality, so if an opponent erases himself from his imagination, what would happen to them?

That's different because Lee's existence is dependent on Gremmy remembering him in the first place and imagining him into existence.

Ji Ning is not being imagined into existence by Gremmy.

 

[Planck69]

that's not my argument at all? If they're not in gremmy's mind / memory to begin with then why'd they get affected by his reality warping?
Im saying that if a certain being is in gremmy's memory, and suddenly gets erased, the effect of them being erased is very plausible, especially considering "he could no longer imagine a future" in which guanael lee exists.

A lot of extrapolation about a character are plausible. They still need canon corroboration to be used.

His literal power is turning his imagination into reality, so if an opponent erases himself from his imagination, what would happen to them?

This just circles back to before. If he forgets something, does it canonically get erased?

If he can keep himself from ever being in his memory to begin with, then that's a different story.
Gremmy's reality warping wouldn't apply then.

Primaltwin Ning already isn't in his memory. He and main body are the same person but considered different entities in mind, body and soul by even the laws of reality. As far as Gremmy knows, he killed Ning. PT Ning activating the ability would just keep that from ever forming considering its a continuous thing.

 

[Hellscream]

The cannon corroboration is, that he can imagine his opponents to be invincible, and can imagine himself out of existence etc.
All which was literally stated in the manga. They pretty much explained that the visionary is also dangerous towards himself. since anything he imagines essentially becomes reality..
It's not just stuff im making up.

 

[Hellscream]

If a character can mindhax him, and make him imagine that he doesn't exist, then he's gone.

 

[Planck69]

The cannon corroboration is, that he can imagine his opponents to be invincible, and can imagine himself out of existence etc.
All which was literally stated in the manga. They pretty much explained that the visionary is also dangerous towards himself. since anything he imagines essentially becomes reality..
It's not just stuff im making up.

He imagines things and they become reality, fine. He can imagine his opponents put of existence, fine. Is there anything that shows or states people removed from his mind cease to exist?

 

[Purgy]

Is erasing himself from his opponents memory Ji Ning's go to move?

 

[Planck69]

Is erasing himself from his opponents memory Ji Ning's go to move?

No. It's concept lock. Which gets his main body erased. His Primaltwin is stored in the Starseizing Manor and Ning is very much not averse to stealth methods. The memory erasure is a mainstay of cultivators so he uses that instead. Gremmy can't remember him and he'd be able to use his powers safely with little issue.

 

[Arkenis]

So Gremmy's win cons are "maybe he imagines this and gg" Ji ning's win are erasing from memory and concept locking him? leaning towards Ji already.

These Gremmy arguments are at best what ifs and maybe he'll start with this.

What can Ji Ning do if Gremmy with a thought imagines his death?

Death on what level? From what I see its just regular death hax to spiritual beings, Ji can just res himself.

If a character can mindhax him, and make him imagine that he doesn't exist, then he's gone.

Too headcanon to even vote on such an argument. You first have to prove Ji's existence is tied to Gremmy's ability which from what we see this ability has to be constantly applied otherwise it reverts meaning Ji could very well just come back to life.

Primaltwin Ning already isn't in his memory. He and main body are the same person but considered different entities in mind, body and soul by even the laws of reality. As far as Gremmy knows, he killed Ning. PT Ning activating the ability would just keep that from ever forming considering its a continuous thing.

This also counters Gremmy winning from an unknown variable with the Visionary and memory hax.

 

[Planck69]

Death on what level? From what I see its just regular death hax to spiritual beings, Ji can just res himself.

While I do want to know this as well, I will remind that his reincarnation isn't combat applicable. He can possess people though, so there's that if it isn't down to soul level.

 

[Hellscream]

I don't need to prove that his existence is tied to gremmy's imagination, as gremmy's imagination warps reality, and no his ability doesn't need to be constantly applied. as he stated with his meteorite, that even if he were to die, the meteorite is already a reality and isn't just going to disappear.

 

[Planck69]

You need to prove that for whatever reason, him forgetting Ning would kill him. And that for whatever reason, he had to remember everything around him for it to exist.

 

[Hellscream]

It's not "maybe he imagines this" like it was stated 100193249834872919023 times before, his opening moves are death hax, and EE, or transmutation when he wants to toy around with his opponent.

Gremmy's EE, works on an abstract being, that is nonexistent, so yeah im pretty sure if he uses it on ji ning he's not gonna res himself from that.

 

[Arkenis]

as gremmy's imagination warps reality, and no his ability doesn't need to be constantly applied. as he stated with his meteorite, that even if he were to die, the meteorite is already a reality and isn't just going to disappear.

Ah yes his ability is inconsistent lmao?

 

[Hellscream]

Ah yes his ability is inconsistent lmao?

Did you read the manga or?

Do you even know from where his 6-a key comes from?

 

[Planck69]

Wait, this guy's been in a prolonged fight outside of rubble and his own creations and were going with him opening with EE?

 

[Arkenis]

Did you read the manga or?

Do you even know from where his 6-a key comes from?

what are u even talking about? I'm talking about him needing to always imagine the thing in order to keep it going as reality. The meteor

 

[Hellscream]

Wait, this guy's been in a prolonged fight outside of rubble and his own creations and were going with him opening with EE?

Because that's what he opens with...

He only fought kenpachi, whom he thought was a respectable opponent, and made a stage for etc.

The other beings, he just imagined out of existence, and death haxxed.

 

[Arkenis]

Wait, this guy's been in a prolonged fight outside of rubble and his own creations and were going with him opening with EE?

This whole argument is stupid and shows people didn't really understand Gremmy V Kenpachi.

Gremmy normally haxes people into oblivion with his more powerful things like EE. Gremmy didn't do this to Kenpachi only because Kenpachi through his brutish strength made Gremmy want to prove his strength. That's the entire narrative of their fight. There is no reason Gremmy wouldn't hax **** through things like EE, which he did to everyone but Kenpachi for plot specific reasons.

 

[Loyd]

While I do want to know this as well, I will remind that his reincarnation isn't combat applicable. He can possess people though, so there's that if it isn't down to soul level.

Its regular death hax

has Ji Ning actually possessed another? i don't know the full context but sounds like his talking about other Cultivators from the scan

 

[Purgy]

Wait, this guy's been in a prolonged fight outside of rubble and his own creations and were going with him opening with EE?

It's not really fair to use that fight as an argument for how Gremmy would actually fight, he wanted to unequivocally prove that he was completely superior to Kenpachi, he doesn't even know who Ji Ning is or have any reason to care about proving himself against him.

Gremmy's first ever moves are death manip and EE, the order is debatable.

 

[Planck69]

Its regular death hax

has Ji Ning actually possessed another? i don't know the full context but sounds like his talking about other Cultivators from the scan

All cultivators at this stage can do it to escape death.

Because that's what he opens with...

He only fought kenpachi, whom he thought was a respectable opponent, and made a stage for etc.

The other beings, he just imagined out of existence, and death haxxed.

All 1 other being apparently, in the case of EE?

Well, not as though it really negates the original argument, I just find this rather shaky.

 

[Planck69]

It's not really fair to use that fight as an argument for how Gremmy would actually fight, he wanted to unequivocally prove that he was completely superior to Kenpachi, he doesn't even know who Ji Ning is or have any reason to care about proving himself against him.

Gremmy's first ever moves are death manip and EE, the order is debatable.

Anything special about the EE?

Edit: Sorry, death hax I mean.

 

[Hellscream]

Anything special about the EE.

I just told you that he erased an abstract being out of existence with nonexistent physiology.

They're talking about his "imagine you dead" death hax, which is just normal death hax, but that's not his existence erasure.