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They wouldnt be 11-A anyways since Demigra was goimg to destroy the real world too.
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Grand Priest's Probability Manipulation problem
- Thread starter The_real_cal_howard
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One, it changes the idea that DBH characters are MegaMan.EXE and that the characters aren't just programs. Because people like to say that so they can say the real world is a higher world so they can push one day for the characters to be Low 1-C.Dragomer said:
Two, read above post.
Three, difference between the two is that isekais actually don't have tutorials. You know, because they're not actually games? Satou from Death March Rhapsody doesn't have to press A to jump. If this were an isekai, or legit, it would actually be brought up and explained that CI manipulates reality to prevent hits, like what happens to Meltlilith for example. This? No. It's a stat that allows this stuff to happen, and it's just as inane as arguing that my Mewtwo having higher CP than my Arceus means he's stronger because of Pokemon effing GO.
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Two points:
1) Great Priest doesn't have a Charge Impact, his ability is used with the other characters' abilities before the attack phase. The "prevent enemy attacks" part of the description just means that enemies can't attack him, because he's an SP character who isn't designed to clash with characters.
2) While Heroes is an arcade game in-universe, the DBH characters also exist in the real world. It's a plot point in World Mission that Beat is descended from Goku, and several of World Mission's later chapters involve the characters travelling into the real world's past to stop Sealas from meddling with time.
1) Great Priest doesn't have a Charge Impact, his ability is used with the other characters' abilities before the attack phase. The "prevent enemy attacks" part of the description just means that enemies can't attack him, because he's an SP character who isn't designed to clash with characters.
2) While Heroes is an arcade game in-universe, the DBH characters also exist in the real world. It's a plot point in World Mission that Beat is descended from Goku, and several of World Mission's later chapters involve the characters travelling into the real world's past to stop Sealas from meddling with time.
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DBH characters aren't just programs though, I thought this was shown with Chamel threatening Beats Real World. That would make sense if Beat could only interact with them via the game. But they are able to leave the restraints of the game and can destroy the properties of the Real World presumably on the same scale as the DBH Multiverse, and then there's Grand Priest who is the fricken Bridge between the two.
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That's. What. I. Said.
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Honestly.... yeah. Siding with Cal on this one.
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I brought up Meltlilith earlier, and she's a case of this being done truthfully. Granted in her case it's less probability and more law. Her lack of hit detection is explicitly brought up and is used as a plotpoint for her invulnerability. It's not vague and it makes all attacks that hit their target be read as miss. And it's not based on a stat.
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One, it changes the idea that DBH characters are MegaMan.EXE and that the characters aren't just programs. Because people like to say that so they can say the real world is a higher world so they can push one day for the characters to be Low 1-C.
Two, read above post.
Three, difference between the two is that isekais actually don't have tutorials. You know, because they're not actually games? Satou from Death March Rhapsody doesn't have to press A to jump. If this were an isekai, or legit, it would actually be brought up and explained that CI manipulates reality to prevent hits, like what happens to Meltlilith for example. This? No. It's a stat that allows this stuff to happen, and it's just as inane as arguing that my Mewtwo having higher CP than my Arceus means he's stronger because of Pokemon effing GO.
The real world IS a higher world though so what are you on about ?
Said post above answers nothing.
Yeah, RPG Isekai with no tutorial, cool, thanks for making a third paragraphe to explain you've never actualy read one cause the huge majority HAVE tutorial, especialy in web novel format, some have entier mission scenario titled as Tutorial dith a town elder explaining the goddamn mechanics.
so once again, you're not even arguing the ability anymore and are just trying to ignore the very basis of DBH.
Dominodalek, world mission is seperated from the rest of DBH.
Two, read above post.
Three, difference between the two is that isekais actually don't have tutorials. You know, because they're not actually games? Satou from Death March Rhapsody doesn't have to press A to jump. If this were an isekai, or legit, it would actually be brought up and explained that CI manipulates reality to prevent hits, like what happens to Meltlilith for example. This? No. It's a stat that allows this stuff to happen, and it's just as inane as arguing that my Mewtwo having higher CP than my Arceus means he's stronger because of Pokemon effing GO.
The real world IS a higher world though so what are you on about ?
Said post above answers nothing.
Yeah, RPG Isekai with no tutorial, cool, thanks for making a third paragraphe to explain you've never actualy read one cause the huge majority HAVE tutorial, especialy in web novel format, some have entier mission scenario titled as Tutorial dith a town elder explaining the goddamn mechanics.
so once again, you're not even arguing the ability anymore and are just trying to ignore the very basis of DBH.
Dominodalek, world mission is seperated from the rest of DBH.
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Let me guess. You think the cast should be 5-D then.
Outright lie. You're confusing exposition through teaching with tutorials. Tutorials are letting the players know what buttons to press or remotes to shake or whatever. The former is showing the character how to do stuff, or explaining the world. Show me one where one of those people have to press buttons to do tasks in the game while they're in the game. Or anything of the sort. The times where it's actually shown? Like Hardcore Leveling Warrior or that series Han Jee Han is from? Or hell, even Sword Art Online? Their game mechanics are actually mentioned outside of the tutorial and matter to the plot.
You know what? Yes. I am. I'm ignoring the basis of DBH. In fact, arguing game mechanics as a whole ignores the very basis of their core games. I have to lower the HP bar in a game of Street Fighter, and that's the whole point of it? Well arguing HP bars are game mechanics is ignoring the entire basis of Street Fighter, so therefore all characters canonically have HP bars. Arguing taking turns as game mechanics? Well you're ignoring the entire basis of most JRPGs, so Cloud attacks and waits for his opponent to attack and on and on. Smash Bros characters being unable to die until you knock them off the blast zone? Saying that's game mechanics is ignoring the entire aspect of Smash, so Wii Fit Trainer can't be crushed to death by Hulk.
Outright lie. You're confusing exposition through teaching with tutorials. Tutorials are letting the players know what buttons to press or remotes to shake or whatever. The former is showing the character how to do stuff, or explaining the world. Show me one where one of those people have to press buttons to do tasks in the game while they're in the game. Or anything of the sort. The times where it's actually shown? Like Hardcore Leveling Warrior or that series Han Jee Han is from? Or hell, even Sword Art Online? Their game mechanics are actually mentioned outside of the tutorial and matter to the plot.
You know what? Yes. I am. I'm ignoring the basis of DBH. In fact, arguing game mechanics as a whole ignores the very basis of their core games. I have to lower the HP bar in a game of Street Fighter, and that's the whole point of it? Well arguing HP bars are game mechanics is ignoring the entire basis of Street Fighter, so therefore all characters canonically have HP bars. Arguing taking turns as game mechanics? Well you're ignoring the entire basis of most JRPGs, so Cloud attacks and waits for his opponent to attack and on and on. Smash Bros characters being unable to die until you knock them off the blast zone? Saying that's game mechanics is ignoring the entire aspect of Smash, so Wii Fit Trainer can't be crushed to death by Hulk.
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No, because that whole 'D' stuff is dumb and make no sense, the real world being beyond the DBH multivers is still true, i don't know whatever it makes it in your arbitrary scale and i don't care, another fact is that being from the real world doesn't make you any stronger, because DB doesn't follow that whole D systeme, also that has nothing to do with what the thread is about.
No, actualy read what you are talking about before speaking, the ******* novels themself call them tutorial next to the mission's name usualy.
You're mistaking story mode with 'random fight without story'
You seem to think i meant you were ignoring DBH as game whne i clearly meant you were ignoring DBH as a setting.
Too bad for you all of those exemple have the game mechanic contradicted by the story while everything i mentionned is part of DBH's story.
Seriously, it's obvious at this point you're arguing in bad faith over losing the argument on the darkrai thread.
No, actualy read what you are talking about before speaking, the ******* novels themself call them tutorial next to the mission's name usualy.
You're mistaking story mode with 'random fight without story'
You seem to think i meant you were ignoring DBH as game whne i clearly meant you were ignoring DBH as a setting.
Too bad for you all of those exemple have the game mechanic contradicted by the story while everything i mentionned is part of DBH's story.
Seriously, it's obvious at this point you're arguing in bad faith over losing the argument on the darkrai thread.
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Enough. Everyone calm down. This is a really stupid thing to have an argument over. Take a deep breath and go back to being civil.
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Sure. Whatever.
What are you even talking about? Mission names? What books have mission names? Novels of what? DBH?
If you're talking about something that's not a game, even random fight no. 41 is part of the story.
Then explain, because all you're saying is "But they mentioned it!" without saying how. It's what you've done the entire thread. You haven't even denied my claim that it's only mentioned in a tutorial.
Wonderful! Here comes the fallacies! Appeal to motive; fallacy number 4! Funny how the example we have also involves DB.
What are you even talking about? Mission names? What books have mission names? Novels of what? DBH?
If you're talking about something that's not a game, even random fight no. 41 is part of the story.
Then explain, because all you're saying is "But they mentioned it!" without saying how. It's what you've done the entire thread. You haven't even denied my claim that it's only mentioned in a tutorial.
Wonderful! Here comes the fallacies! Appeal to motive; fallacy number 4! Funny how the example we have also involves DB.
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I don't see how either of you expect this to continue in a productive manner with those attitudes.
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Of Isekai with game mechanic, just go on webnovel and use the game mechanic tag, lots of them have tutorial, especialy the 'systeme ones'The real cal howard said:
That's litteraly how Beats get selected, he never played before so Trunks tell him everything and then when actual fights start, (AKA he isn't just playing at the stadium) Trunks say in the cinematic to remember what he taugh you (though that might be world mission though, would need to recheck).
And here's the fallacy fallacy, everyone can play that game (yes, it's an actual fallacy.)
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I agree with Cal.
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Here's a good explanation of the mechanics behind this technique in-game from a blog on Reddit.
'During combat both the attacking players and the defending player will have to engage in a mini-game called the Charged Impact (CI). When the CI battle begins, both players are presented with a bar that is quickly and repeatedly filled up and drained. The objective of the CI Is to press the red button when the bar is completely or near full. A full charge impact will result in a "perfect".
The player who filled up the bar the most is the winner of that specific attack. If the attacking player wins their character will deal serious damage to the enemy and launch their super attack if the player has enough Hero energy. If the defending player wins they will guard against the attacker, Hence taking a little damage and intercept the enemy from launching a super attack. During the CIs, There is an extremely low chance called the "Miracle Perfect" to happen. This means that no matter when you press the button, you will get a perfect rating for your CI.'
To explain this in a normal vs battle applicable way without using game mechanics, Grand Priest has an ability that increases his chances of winning a CI mini game. This ability basically gives him an increased chance of hitting his opponent first and reduces the chances of another opponent connecting with him and or reduces the damage taken if used defensively. It has its flaw though as GP needs to charge ki (Hero Energy) to the max (Filling the bar). Xeno Goku likewise can do this too but not on the scale of GP due to his ability.
Side Note this is not to be confused with Unknown Entity as that is a completely separate move. Unknown Entity is simply GP powering up his team in a supporting role.
'During combat both the attacking players and the defending player will have to engage in a mini-game called the Charged Impact (CI). When the CI battle begins, both players are presented with a bar that is quickly and repeatedly filled up and drained. The objective of the CI Is to press the red button when the bar is completely or near full. A full charge impact will result in a "perfect".
The player who filled up the bar the most is the winner of that specific attack. If the attacking player wins their character will deal serious damage to the enemy and launch their super attack if the player has enough Hero energy. If the defending player wins they will guard against the attacker, Hence taking a little damage and intercept the enemy from launching a super attack. During the CIs, There is an extremely low chance called the "Miracle Perfect" to happen. This means that no matter when you press the button, you will get a perfect rating for your CI.'
To explain this in a normal vs battle applicable way without using game mechanics, Grand Priest has an ability that increases his chances of winning a CI mini game. This ability basically gives him an increased chance of hitting his opponent first and reduces the chances of another opponent connecting with him and or reduces the damage taken if used defensively. It has its flaw though as GP needs to charge ki (Hero Energy) to the max (Filling the bar). Xeno Goku likewise can do this too but not on the scale of GP due to his ability.
Side Note this is not to be confused with Unknown Entity as that is a completely separate move. Unknown Entity is simply GP powering up his team in a supporting role.
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Everything after this isn't of any value, since World Mission heavily contradicts the way the Beat's World is shown on literally every other Heroes media.Dominodalek said:
Rose_of_Ragnarok
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Bump
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Wow, wtf happened when I was gone, tbh I agree with Cal again after going over his points. Are there any showings of this ability in story? The difference between isekai and SAO Vs DBH. Is that the mechanics are canon to the story in themselves. In other words is the gameplay itself canon to how the characters fight in heroes? Do they actually mention stuff like charge impact outside of any tutorial type effect (that is not even referred to by characters) and as something critical to the story?
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Charge Impact is never mentioned outside of tutorials in any of the games.
As I said though, it's irrelevant anyway since Great Priest doesn't use the Charge Impact system, nor does he affect the Charge Impacts of anyone else.
As I said though, it's irrelevant anyway since Great Priest doesn't use the Charge Impact system, nor does he affect the Charge Impacts of anyone else.
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Then it can't be used as a power or ability.
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Everything after this isn't of any value, since World Mission heavily contradicts the way the Beat's World is shown on literally every other Heroes media.
We've had this discussion already lonliosite. The "It's contradictory!" argument is not valid when literally all of Heroes is contradictory to itself.
World Mission is literally the only media that shows the real world that way, everything else is consistent.
We've had this discussion already lonliosite. The "It's contradictory!" argument is not valid when literally all of Heroes is contradictory to itself.
World Mission is literally the only media that shows the real world that way, everything else is consistent.
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We've had this discussion already lonliosite. The "It's contradictory!" argument is not valid when literally all of Heroes is contradictory to itself.Ionliosite said:
World Mission is literally the only media that shows the real world that way, everything else is consistent.
None of the Heroes media are consistent with each other, trying to treat them as if they are so is an exercise in madness. Take Chamel for example, he appears in the arcade (in a bonus mission, not the main story), the manga, Ultimate Mission X and World Mission; each appearance might as well be a different character, with how wildly his backstory, personality, strength and overall identity vary.
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God forbid something has incosistencies. I mean, this is Dragon Ball we're talking about.
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There are inconsistencies and then there are this mess of continuity that is DBH.
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Bump, what are the votes on this anyway.
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I'm indifferent with the whole Probability thing, tbh.
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I agree with Cal.
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Ayyy long time no see, my dude.ShadowWarrior1999 said:
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I think we agreed Probability manipulation is not legit.
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I'm not sure how you can say Probability Manipulation isn't legit when the game mechanics is DBH canon (Beat, the player in the story, is pretty much playing a isekai version of our real life game).
Like it's literally the first thing we see in the opening cinematic. Notice how the characters that show up to help him once he's isekai'd are the ones on the cards he put dow, including his own in-game avatar. That's pretty damn hard evidence real life game mechanics fully works in the isekai world.
Or are we going to argue that the cards he uses "in real life" don't count because it just doesn't?
Card's mechanics working in the Isekai World is canon
But the actual Card Effects and the characters on said cards isn't? is basically the argument I'm seeing which... doesn't... work?
Like it's literally the first thing we see in the opening cinematic. Notice how the characters that show up to help him once he's isekai'd are the ones on the cards he put dow, including his own in-game avatar. That's pretty damn hard evidence real life game mechanics fully works in the isekai world.
Or are we going to argue that the cards he uses "in real life" don't count because it just doesn't?
Card's mechanics working in the Isekai World is canon
But the actual Card Effects and the characters on said cards isn't? is basically the argument I'm seeing which... doesn't... work?
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It doesn't really matter whether Probability Manipulation is legit in general, because Great Priest doesn't have it. He doesn't need it, since he doesn't take any offensive actions and thus doesn't have any probability to manipulate.
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... what is this actually trying to say?Dominodalek said:
"Doesn't really matter whether probability manipulation is legit in general"
No. It does a lot.
"Because Grand Priest doesn't have it"
Okay, prove it?
"He doesn't need it"
That is NOT the same as not having it.
"Since he doesn't take any offensive actions and thus doesn't have any probability to manipulate"
You do realize that there's a fine line between "Game Mechanics have a basis in abilities and powers" and straight up "Game Mechanics dictates character actions" right?
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For other characters maybe, but it would be like arguing about whether Toon Force would be legit - it doesn't matter when he doesn't have it.Akreious said:
It's easy to prove - Great Priest has two cards in the game, one of which boosts Power Level (not actual strength, the team with the higher Power Level attacks first) and the other allowing all allied attackers that round to use their Super Attacks without needing the required amount of Hero Energy. Neither affect Charge Impact.
I didn't say it was, I was explaining why in-game Great Priest doesn't affect Charge Impact speeds.
Yes, and I never said it would dictate his actions, becuase it wouldn't.
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