(GRACE) Kizaru (Borsalino) VS Kozuki Oden

[Purgy]

The haki page only says that they resist spatial manipulation.
Ace example is not a straw man, ace has rudimentary haki yet somehow can cancel out aokiji's attacks, also "Although weaker than Whitebeard, he could consistently leave burns on his body during his earlier days as a pirate, showing that he shouldn't be too inferior from his durability." ace can burn whitebeard, who has like 500x better haki, so how does haki makes you resist this? same case here with kizaru.
Akainu's magma can be withstood by characters who literally have no haki like luffy.

No it says;

Rudimentary Haki Users: Haki users of this level are capable of actively using the basic functions of this form of Haki as descibed above. They can coat their entire body with an invisible wall that increases defenses and attack power while subtly increasing range. They can actively attack those with the ability to turn their physical body into other materials such as ice or smoke (typically Logia Devil Fruit Users), and mitigate the effects of Devil Fruit attacks.

So Pre-Whitebeard Pirates Ace's fire > Akainu's magma? Whitebeard can literally grab Akainu's magma without being burnt, and this is Marineford Whitebeard who's weaker than the one Ace supposedly burns.

Makes sense

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

No it says;

So Pre-Whitebeard Pirates Ace's fire > Akainu's magma? Whitebeard can literally grab Akainu's magma without being burnt, and this is Marineford Whitebeard who's weaker than the one Ace supposedly burns.

Makes sense

I can see that, but it only gives resistance to spatial manipulation despite this. White beard didn't grab akainu's magma, he hit it with the bisento, that wouldn't make sense at all either since akainu simply by touching whitebeards head with magma, took half of it off and made two holes in his body so whitebeard doesn't resist it at all. Does that mean akainu's armament > Whitebeard's armament?

 

[Purgy]

I can see that, but it only gives resistance to spatial manipulation despite this.

It doesn't only give resistance to spatial manip, it literally says on the page that it "mitigates the effects of devil fruits attacks" in general, not it "mitigates the effects of Law's devil fruit".

White beard didn't grab akainu's magma, he hit it with the bisento

Even if true, it doesn't change that Whitebeard is essentially in contact with Akainu's magma, which has already been clearly shown to be far hotter than even Marineford Ace's fire, let alone Ace from before he even joined the Whitebeard Pirates.

Also, you can't even prove Whitebeard was using CoA to defend against Ace's attacks in the past, given what we do see, Whitebeard was toying with him, even dodging his attacks in his sleep etc.

that wouldn't make sense at all either since akainu simply by touching whitebeards head with magma, took half of it off and made two holes in his body so whitebeard doesn't resist it at all.

Whitebeards strength was constantly deteriorating throughout the war from the wounds he received and his own health, so the one that grabbed Akainu's magma would be stronger than the one that had half his head blown off towards the end of the war

Regardless, it could just be that the attack Akainu used to destroy half of Whitebeards head was stronger than the one Whitebeard grabbed, but it doesn't change my argument.

Does that mean akainu's armament > Whitebeard's armament?

Marineford Whitebeard who couldn't even use CoO or CoC without having a heartattack? Sure, you can argue that if you want, doesn't mean anything.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

It doesn't only give resistance to spatial manip, it literally says on the page that it "mitigates the effects of devil fruits attacks" in general, not it "mitigates the effects of Law's devil fruit".

Even if true, it doesn't change that Whitebeard is essentially in contact with Akainu's magma, which has already been clearly shown to be far hotter than even Marineford Ace's fire, let alone Ace from before he even joined the Whitebeard Pirates.

Also, you can't even prove Whitebeard was using CoA to defend against Ace's attacks in the past, given what we do see, Whitebeard was toying with him, even dodging his attacks in his sleep etc.

Whitebeards strength was constantly deteriorating throughout the war from the wounds he received and his own health, so the one that grabbed Akainu's magma would be stronger than the one that had half his head blown off towards the end of the war

Regardless, it could just be that the attack Akainu used to destroy half of Whitebeards head was stronger than the one Whitebeard grabbed, but it doesn't change my argument.

Marineford Whitebeard who couldn't even use CoO or CoC without having a heartattack? Sure, you can argue that if you want, doesn't mean anything.

Whitebeard did not make contact. Um why wouldn't he if he could get burned by them, you can't prove he didn't either, this point can't go to either of us, we just know ace could burn whitebeard but he could also clash with aokiji.
Whitebeard getting weaker doesn't mean his haki is getting weaker.
This is an assumption that akainu's attack which took WB's head was stronger than the other one.

 

[Purgy]

Whitebeard did not make contact. Um why wouldn't he if he could get burned by them, you can't prove he didn't either, this point can't go to either of us, we just know ace could burn whitebeard but he could also clash with aokiji.
Whitebeard getting weaker doesn't mean his haki is getting weaker.
This is an assumption that akainu's attack which took WB's head was stronger than the other one.

He did, it's clearly shown in the panel I linked

Except it does though, we know Haki weakens alongside physical condition, Whitebeard is literally a prime example of that... His Haki was obviously weakened during Marineford, like, I'm not sure how you didn't notice that.

Saying Whitebeard used Haki to defend against Ace's attacks is also an assumption, as is most of what you've been saying.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

He did, it's clearly shown in the panel I linked

Except it does though, we know Haki weakens alongside physical condition, Whitebeard is literally a prime example of that... His Haki was obviously weakened during Marineford, like, I'm not sure how you didn't notice that.

Saying Whitebeard used Haki to defend against Ace's attacks is also an assumption, as is most of what you've been saying.

He did not, only his sword did.
No, haki doesn't weaken, he just can't use it as much anymore, and I think that only applies to observation because that's what marco said.
He has no reason not to defend himself when he knows that ace's fire can burn him.

 

[Purgy]

He did not, only his sword did.
No, haki doesn't weaken, he just can't use it as much anymore, and I think that only applies to observation because that's what marco said.
He has no reason not to defend himself when he knows that ace's fire can burn him.

No, Whitebeard was clearly in contact with the magma

Whitebeard's Haki was weakened, explain why he never used Adv CoA, Adv CoC, CoC at all or even CoO?

Because Ace is fodder, and this is still an assumption

 

[StrawHatArslan]

oden fra

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

No, Whitebeard was clearly in contact with the magma

Whitebeard's Haki was weakened, explain why he never used Adv CoA, Adv CoC, CoC at all or even CoO?

Because Ace is fodder, and this is still an assumption

No he was not, you can see the blade of the bisento was touching the magma, but whitebeards hand is no where near the blade.
Haki was an early concept, we still did not see the black busoshoku or black lightning, but we know they were using haki it just wasn't visible.
Ace is foffer yet he could burn whitebeard, now explain if whitebeard knows ace can burn him, why he didn't use haki?

 

[Purgy]

No he was not, you can see the blade of the bisento was touching the magma, but whitebeards hand is no where near the blade.
Haki was an early concept, we still did not see the black busoshoku or black lightning, but we know they were using haki it just wasn't visible.
Ace is foffer yet he could burn whitebeard, now explain if whitebeard knows ace can burn him, why he didn't use haki?

You can clearly see that he is touching the magma...

Sounds like an excuse

Because Whitebeard was toying with him, and it depends on how severe the burns are, if they're a mild annoyance, why would Whitebeard care. You're assuming Whitebeard used Haki, but you've not proven it.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Oden FRA.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

You can clearly see that he is touching the magma...

Sounds like an excuse

Because Whitebeard was toying with him, and it depends on how severe the burns are, if they're a mild annoyance, why would Whitebeard care. You're assuming Whitebeard used Haki, but you've not proven it.

I literally do not see it, all I see is the blade making contact and whitebeard extending his blade, and his blade is really long, how would he touch it when his hand and blade are not close to each other at all?
Okay, just because we didn't see the haki being explicitly used doesn't mean they weren't using it.
If he was toying with him, why tf would he get hurt on purpose wtf? This is directly from ace's justification for 6-B, ace must have a strong effect if he scales to whitebeard because of the damage he did.

 

[Purgy]

I literally do not see it, all I see is the blade making contact and whitebeard extending his blade, and his blade is really long, how would he touch it when his hand and blade are not close to each other at all?
Okay, just because we didn't see the haki being explicitly used doesn't mean they weren't using it.
If he was toying with him, why tf would he get hurt on purpose wtf? This is directly from ace's justification for 6-B, ace must have a strong effect if he scales to whitebeard because of the damage he did.

The manga page is extremely clear, Whitebeard is literally in contact with Akainu's magma

That's an excuse, and even in the Pre-Timeskip, Oda showed Adv CoA, he had the three admirals do it to block Whitebeard's attack as well as other characters from Sabaody, Marineford Whitebeard never did anything resembling Adv CoA, Adv CoC etc

Ace is 6-B for several reasons, such as being comparable to other WB Division Commanders, clashing with Aokiji and Akainu etc.

The burning Whitebeard part is the weakest justification on his profile.

And we don't know how burned Whitebeard was, it could have been slight burns that he didn't care about.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

The manga page is extremely clear, Whitebeard is literally in contact with Akainu's magma

That's an excuse, and even in the Pre-Timeskip, Oda showed Adv CoA, he had the three admirals do it to block Whitebeard's attack as well as other characters from Sabaody, Marineford Whitebeard never did anything resembling Adv CoA, Adv CoC etc

Ace is 6-B for several reasons, such as being comparable to other WB Division Commanders, clashing with Aokiji and Akainu etc.

The burning Whitebeard part is the weakest justification on his profile.

And we don't know how burned Whitebeard was, it could have been slight burns that he didn't care about.

Nope, are we even looking at the same scan? The perspective makes the magma in front of whitebeard so you can't see the depth, but the bisento is long af and the magma was at the tip which is very far from whitebeards hand.
Btw advanced haki in armament doesn't make it stronger, it's just a different application like that forcefield or durability negation, but WB not using that doesn't mean his haki diminishes, is there literally any other example in the show where a characters haki gets weaker? In fact hyogoro who's a frail old man even weaker than whitebeard could use the same potency of haki that he could before.
A burn is a burn, you can't justify WB not using haki especially when ace scales to him, especially when the profile uses this as proof.

 

[Purgy]

Nope, are we even looking at the same scan? The perspective makes the magma in front of whitebeard so you can't see the depth, but the bisento is long af and the magma was at the tip which is very far from whitebeards hand.
Btw advanced haki in armament doesn't make it stronger, it's just a different application like that forcefield or durability negation, but WB not using that doesn't mean his haki diminishes, is there literally any other example in the show where a characters haki gets weaker? In fact hyogoro who's a frail old man even weaker than whitebeard could use the same potency of haki that he could before.
A burn is a burn, you can't justify WB not using haki especially when ace scales to him, especially when the profile uses this as proof.

The scan I linked, it's extremely blatant that the magma is touching him

Marineford WB never did anything even remotely close to his Prime Haki showings

Hyogoro doesn't have a serious illness to greatly impair him, it's already known in OP that age doesn't really make you weaker, hence why Old Beard is equal to Prime Beard here.

I can justify Whitebeard not using Haki, because there's zero evidence that he did so, you're making a baseless assumption.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Can someone link the scan again pls? sorry for the inconvencience

 

[Purgy]

So Pre-Whitebeard Pirates Ace's fire > Akainu's magma? Whitebeard can literally grab Akainu's magma without being burnt, and this is Marineford Whitebeard who's weaker than the one Ace supposedly burns.

 

[Bernkastelll]

ty

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

The scan I linked, it's extremely blatant that the magma is touching him

Marineford WB never did anything even remotely close to his Prime Haki showings

Hyogoro doesn't have a serious illness to greatly impair him, it's already known in OP that age doesn't really make you weaker, hence why Old Beard is equal to Prime Beard here.

I can justify Whitebeard not using Haki, because there's zero evidence that he did so, you're making a baseless assumption.

You're saying that and repeating yourself without actually giving a single reason as to why you think that, I gave you reasons why wb isn't touching that red shit.
Yup he was weaker because of illness, but that doesn't mean his haki was also weaker, haki doesn't get weaker the potency stays the same.
Hyogoro was frail and starving and was way out of his prime, I thought this was obvious, yet was still able to use the same haki he did before.
Neither of us can prove he used haki or not because we've no knowledge of what happened, but I'm using logic tp argue that he did, if ace could burn him then why would he not use haki? You're the one who's argument is baseless here.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Well, we clearely can see that the magma is touching his arm, doesnt even matter if the bisento also is touching it, because White Beard arm fore sure is being touched by the magma as well

 

[Purgy]

You're saying that and repeating yourself without actually giving a single reason as to why you think that, I gave you reasons why wb isn't touching that red shit.
Yup he was weaker because of illness, but that doesn't mean his haki was also weaker, haki doesn't get weaker the potency stays the same.
Hyogoro was frail and starving and was way out of his prime, I thought this was obvious, yet was still able to use the same haki he did before.
Neither of us can prove he used haki or not because we've no knowledge of what happened, but I'm using logic tp argue that he did, if ace could burn him then why would he not use haki? You're the one who's argument is baseless here.

Spoiler

I'm repeating myself because the manga panel is pretty clear, if you're unable to see it, well...

Where's the evidence that Marineford Whitebeard's Haki was anywhere near as potent as it was in his prime? None of his Haki feats come close to Primebeard's

Hyogoro didn't have a serious illness, age doesn't matter

You need to prove it since your argument depends on it lol

 

[PrinceofPein]

Well, we clearely can see that the magma is touching his arm, doesnt even matter if the bisento also is touching it, because White Beard arm fore sure is being touched by the magma as well

Well is there another shot?
Cause that maybe arguable, in the anime when this was visualized it was only the bisento.
With the way the panel is we can't actually tell if it is on his arm or just in front.

 

[Purgy]

Well is there another shot?
Cause that maybe arguable, in the anime when this was visualized it was only the bisento.
With the way the panel is we can't actually tell if it is on his arm or just in front.

Anime isn't canon, it's just someones interpretation of the manga

And no, there's not another shot, but you can clearly see he's in contact with the magma imo

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Spoiler

I'm repeating myself because the manga panel is pretty clear, if you're unable to see it, well...

Where's the evidence that Marineford Whitebeard's Haki was anywhere near as potent as it was in his prime? None of his Haki feats come close to Primebeard's

Hyogoro didn't have a serious illness, age doesn't matter

You need to prove it since your argument depends on it lol

Well it's clearly not, you can't see his arm because the magma is hiding it, but that doesn't mean his arm is covered, we know because we can see the blade striking the magma, and the distance from the blade to his arm is massive so it's not touching his arm, again you're just saying it is.
Armament Haki doesn't deteriorate or get weaker, the only time haki is stated to get weaker is when marco said whitebeard should've dodged attacks that he didn't or when you lose concentration of your observation, but never in the case of armament, that's the only time someone gets weaker, hyogoro who was sick and frail like whitebeard had his haki as strong as it was before. So that means there's no reason for wb's haki to get weaker during marineford, now you prove otherwise.
Hyogoro was pretty much starving and frail, yet his still had just as good haki as before.
Well the standard assumption is that he did due to the reason I gave, now provide reasons against my claim.

 

[Purgy]

Well it's clearly not, you can't see his arm because the magma is hiding it, but that doesn't mean his arm is covered, we know because we can see the blade striking the magma, and the distance from the blade to his arm is massive so it's not touching his arm, again you're just saying it is.
Armament Haki doesn't deteriorate or get weaker, the only time haki is stated to get weaker is when marco said whitebeard should've dodged attacks that he didn't or when you lose concentration of your observation, but never in the case of armament, that's the only time someone gets weaker, hyogoro who was sick and frail like whitebeard had his haki as strong as it was before. So that means there's no reason for wb's haki to get weaker during marineford, now you prove otherwise.
Hyogoro was pretty much starving and frail, yet his still had just as good haki as before.
Well the standard assumption is that he did due to the reason I gave, now provide reasons against my claim.

The magma is clearly touching him, you're just saying it isn't

Again, Marineford Whitebeard has zero Haki showings even close to Primebeard

Hyogoro doesn't have a serious illness

No, the standard assumption is that he didn't, you need to prove he did, which you can't

 

[Bernkastelll]

I dunno if i voted before but Oden FRA

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

The magma is clearly touching him, you're just saying it isn't

Again, Marineford Whitebeard has zero Haki showings even close to Primebeard

Hyogoro doesn't have a serious illness

No, the standard assumption is that he didn't, you need to prove he did, which you can't

I'm giving reasons why it isn't because the image isn't clear. You're the one saying it is.
Doesn't mean his haki is weaker.
Why do you keep repeating yourself? That doesn't matter, it only ever applies to observation, we're talking about armament.
No that's wrong, ace could burn wb multiple times, there's literally no reason why wb wouldn't be using haki, you can't prove otherwise.

 

[Purgy]

I'm giving reasons why it isn't because the image isn't clear. You're the one saying it is.
Doesn't mean his haki is weaker.
Why do you keep repeating yourself? That doesn't matter, it only ever applies to observation, we're talking about armament.
No that's wrong, ace could burn wb multiple times, there's literally no reason why wb wouldn't be using haki, you can't prove otherwise.

How much longer are you going to stonewall?

Nothing you've said has changed my mind, at all.

Oden wins, arguably stomps if we take him being above Primebeard in AP literally

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I'm also voting oden.

How much longer are you going to stonewall?

Nothing you've said has changed my mind, at all.

Oden wins, arguably stomps if we take him being above Primebeard in AP literally

I'm not stone walling, you keep repeating yourself, and I gave reasons for why I wb didn't touch the red shit, but you don't listen, so I suggest we look at the anime version, as it's secondary canon and see if wb touched it or not, though I don't know what scene this is or the ep number, so, do you?
Ok. I may have been unable to change your mind but I believe I am correct because you failed to do so as well.
Yes, but I think it should be mid difficulty because of kizaru's speed and durability negation.

 

[Purgy]

I'm also voting oden.

I'm not stone walling, you keep repeating yourself, and I gave reasons for why I wb didn't touch the red shit, but you don't listen, so I suggest we look at the anime version, as it's secondary canon and see if wb touched it or not, though I don't know what scene this is or the ep number, so, do you?
Ok. I may have been unable to change your mind but I believe I am correct because you failed to do so as well.
Yes, but I think it should be mid difficulty because of kizaru's speed and durability negation.

You are stonewalling, just repeating the same thing over and over

The anime isn't secondary canon, it's not canon at all

You can believe you're correct, that doesn't make you correct however

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

In verse armament haki can block devil fruit abilities literally in the databook

2) Busoshoku (武装色) is Haki that strengthens one's offense and defense like armor. With it, it can defend them against a Devil Fruit user’s (悪魔の実) abilities while also allowing them to potentially strike back!

3) The basic application of Haki is to protect oneself from enemy attacks by spreading the Haki all over the body. This can enable them to block physical attacks from weapons as well as those from Devil Fruits!!

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

You are stonewalling, just repeating the same thing over and over

The anime isn't secondary canon, it's not canon at all

You can believe you're correct, that doesn't make you correct however

Says the one actually repeating the same thing over and over. "he clearly touched the magma"
no this is lie. "In terms of canon material, this wiki deems the manga as the primary canon. The anime is considered secondary canon on a case by case basis. In the case of anime, it contradicts statements, feats, personalities, and abilities of characters in many cases."
Yeah this applies to you as well fortunately unfortunately.

 

[Purgy]

Says the one actually repeating the same thing over and over. "he clearly touched the magma"
no this is lie. "In terms of canon material, this wiki deems the manga as the primary canon. The anime is considered secondary canon on a case by case basis. In the case of anime, it contradicts statements, feats, personalities, and abilities of characters in many cases."
Yeah this applies to you as well fortunately unfortunately.

He clearly touched the magma though

Only applies to Wano and beyond

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

What is are you guys arguing about?

 

[Purgy]

What is are you guys arguing about?

Idk, he's kinda just stonewalling

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Oden FRA Kizaru is to slow… even for base Luffy

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Kizaru blinds him then snipes with lasers

Really… blinding an obs haki user

And oden can block with armament haki… or dodge quite easily

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

He clearly touched the magma though

Only applies to Wano and beyond

NOOOOOOOO HE DIDN'T TOUCH IT!!

Panel 1.
Blue = WB's hand
Green = bisento's blade
Black = Distance between blade and hand
Panel 2.
Green = bisento blade hitting magma
pink = bisento's guard where magma stops being hit
black = the big distance between hand and blade which is obstructed due to perspective.
Only the blade is hitting the magma not the hand.
I see, then that's stupid but okay whatever, I still suggest you get the anime version though.

 

[Purgy]

NOOOOOOOO HE DIDN'T TOUCH IT!!
Panel 1.
Blue = WB's hand
Green = bisento's blade
Black = Distance between blade and hand
Panel 2.
Green = bisento blade hitting magma
pink = bisento's guard where magma stops being hit
black = the big distance between hand and blade which is obstructed due to perspective.
Only the blade is hitting the magma not the hand.
I see, then that's stupid but okay whatever, I still suggest you get the anime version though.

It's pretty clear that the magma is touching him

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

It's pretty clear that the magma is touching him

You're trolling, aren't you?