Gotta Revise 'Em All, Part 2: Getting to work

[Sniper670]

Rainbow Rocket Mewtwo should definitively scale above Cyrus' Palkia and Dialga. Considering who exactly is in Rainbow Rocket, him being their Leader already speaks volumes considering if they thought he was inadequate or weaker, they'd have just yoinked him being the scumbags they are lol.

I don't think so. I believe the CT hold back.

No one can stop, and have ever been able to beat them into submission when they decide to destroy the universe. Plus the Pokéball does limit them to a degree.

Pissed off CT absolutely fodderizes all Pokémon besides Arceus.

I don't remember the last time anyone brought mewtwo to stop the CT. They go with Giratina or beg Arceus for help or pray to the stars they stop what they're doing.

Also, um, here's the thing, since Ash has seen and is aware of Arceus' power around two to three times, especially an Arceus that has practically all but a few of his plates and thusly wouldn't be qualitatively infinitely below his Tier 1 Stats, wouldn't Mewtwo's , Eternatus', and Leon's statements of being the strongest pokemon Ash encountered, wouldn't that apply to not neccessarily a peak Arceus, but definitively an Arceus that'd still scale to his Tier 1 Stats ?

I disagree. Ash us still beneath Legendary Pokémon
1. Mewtwo beat his ass, and he wasn't even serious
2. EOS didn't do much to Lugia even after attacking it with everything he got.
3. I don't know how strong Goh is, compared to Ash, but Mew did him dirty. Completely toyed with him when Goh can hold his own against Ash

No matter how strong Ash gets compared to humans, he'd still be beneath many legendary Pokémon.

He's cannot be compared to many Legendaries, let alone to Arceus

Also while I'm on the subject, while I'm neutral on how the Game Creation Trio is handled, The Anime Creation Trio really shouldn't be qualitatively weaker than Arceus (considering Arceus chose to use his plates to be unaffected by any of their assaults rather than take them directly , had to use significant effort to get out of Palkia's ensnarement, and purposely avoided any direct attacks from them, and because of the fact they weren't oneshotted even with him purposely using the plates to amp his attacks, and clearly could get back up after every assault)

Because he was weakened. The CT wouldn't scale to him. He'd rather upscale from the CT because unlike them who we can gauge their power level, we can't do same with Arceus because the plates weakened him significantly

Although his very nature seems to have been retconned so idk

 

[Sniper670]

Also i'm not too sure on the avatars of the creation trio scaling to multiversal/multi+, i feel like each version of the avatars need to have a different profile with feats in their own media and their true form remains the same as we scale now

I keep saying this. The CT and Arceus should have a Varies tier

 

[StrymULTRA]

Pissed off CT absolutely fodderizes all Pokémon besides Arceus.

Manga says otherwise though.

 

[Sniper670]

Manga says otherwise though.

Are you sure about that? Because with the Regis, they still couldn't do anything to them



Their power was increasing to a level where it could tear the world apart. And this wasn't even a targeted attack to the universe. Just merely the energy they keep generating.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Pretty sure they're referring to the other Pokemon manga (And Hareta and Regigigas kinda do hold their own against Giratina tbh)

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yeah, in PokeSpe they do kinda overpower the Creation Trio at parts.

 

[Emerald]

And normal humans can dodge Giratina's attacks

 

[Sniper670]

Pretty sure they're referring to the other Pokemon manga (And Hareta and Regigigas kinda do hold their own against Giratina tbh)

Yes. There's no contradiction here.

They're holding back

 

[Sniper670]

And normal humans can dodge Giratina's attacks

Normal Pokémon can dodge the Ultra Beast attacks as well. And they have Infinite speed

 

[Sniper670]

Yeah, in PokeSpe they do kinda overpower the Creation Trio at parts.

And they can't stop the CT whenever they get pissed off and threaten to wipe out the universe.

There's not been even one instance when the CT threatening the universe has been stopped by anything beneath LT, Red Chain or Arceus. It's always a hopeless endeavor and not even other legendaries can stop them.

And the Hareta stuff proves they can simply power themselves up to that level of power where they can't be stopped.

Hence why I keep saying the CT needs a Varies key

 

[StrymULTRA]

And they can't stop the CT whenever they get pissed off and threaten to wipe out the universe.

There's not been even one instance when the CT threatening the universe has been stopped by anything beneath LT, Red Chain or Arceus. It's always a hopeless endeavor and not even other legendaries can stop them.

And the Hareta stuff proves they can simply power themselves up to that level of power where they can't be stopped.

Hence why I keep saying the CT needs a Varies key

I do not understand what you're trying to argue.

You're saying that they're above all the other Pokémon no matter what, and yet you're saying they should get a Varies because?

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

I don't think so. I believe the CT hold back.

No one can stop, and have ever been able to beat them into submission when they decide to destroy the universe. Plus the Pokéball does limit them to a degree.

Pissed off CT absolutely fodderizes all Pokémon besides Arceus.

I don't remember the last time anyone brought mewtwo to stop the CT. They go with Giratina or beg Arceus for help or pray to the stars they stop what they're doing.

Its mainly for a specific and possibly outlier version mewtwo and it wouldn't scale to his base form but his mega form

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

I keep saying this. The CT and Arceus should have a Varies tier

hundred percent agree with this

 

[CloverDragon03]

I don't think so. I believe the CT hold back.

No one can stop, and have ever been able to beat them into submission when they decide to destroy the universe. Plus the Pokéball does limit them to a degree.

Pissed off CT absolutely fodderizes all Pokémon besides Arceus.

I don't remember the last time anyone brought mewtwo to stop the CT. They go with Giratina or beg Arceus for help or pray to the stars they stop what they're doing.

It's not just any Mewtwo though, it's Giovanni's which has the capability of Mega Evolution.

Also while it's true the Poke Ball limits them to a degree, you'd have to assume it's to an infinitesimally small degree such that it goes down from infinite AP to finite AP, an idea that is entirely unsupported.

Giovanni's Mewtwo > Cyrus's Dialga/Palkia, so RR Giovanni will be 2-B to 2-A. That simple

I disagree. Ash us still beneath Legendary Pokémon
1. Mewtwo beat his ass, and he wasn't even serious
2. EOS didn't do much to Lugia even after attacking it with everything he got.
3. I don't know how strong Goh is, compared to Ash, but Mew did him dirty. Completely toyed with him when Goh can hold his own against Ash

No matter how strong Ash gets compared to humans, he'd still be beneath many legendary Pokémon.

He's cannot be compared to many Legendaries, let alone to Arceus

Ash > Leon > Cynthia ~ Palkia

It's that simple really

Also a Varies tier for simply holding back is just a bad idea

 

[Sniper670]

I do not understand what you're trying to argue.

You're saying that they're above all the other Pokémon no matter what, and yet you're saying they should get a Varies because?

What I'm saying is they can't scale to CT because their power level varies.

 

[StrymULTRA]

What I'm saying is they can't scale to CT because their power level varies.

Oh yeah. This is what I was originally arguing sometimes.

What would be the minimum for them? High 6-A?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

No need for a minimum tier "Varies, up to 2-A" also works

 

[StrymULTRA]

No need for a minimum tier "Varies, up to 2-A" also works

Uhm, no. If they get a varies, they need a minimum. That's how the tier works, it's not like their power changes depending on a factor like Hulk.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Uhm, no. If they get a varies, they need a minimum. That's how the tier works, it's not like their power changes depending on a factor like Hulk.

I don't remember the last time I saw a Varies with a minimum tbh

 

[StrymULTRA]

I don't remember the last time I saw a Varies with a minimum tbh

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[CloverDragon03]

Since when do we give characters a Varies tier simply because they hold back?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

I thought we were giving them Varies because their avatars varie?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Since when do we give characters a Varies tier simply because they hold back?

No it's because of them being inconsistent as ****.

 

[CloverDragon03]

No it's because of them being inconsistent as ****.

Why wouldn't manga characters that fight the Creation Trio simply scale to them? That really shouldn't be a problem given the manga's existing propensity to make everything scale to everything

Is there any evidence besides this little bit from the manga that indicates the Creation Trio's avatars vary in power? This especially doesn't make sense to me given that there's only one appearance the avatars take on, that appearance being the Dialga/Palkia/Giratina we know. Usually avatars take on a variety of forms

 

[LordTracer]

No it's because of them being inconsistent as ****.

We don’t give Varies tiers for inconsistency.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Why wouldn't manga characters that fight the Creation Trio simply scale to them? That really shouldn't be a problem given the manga's existing propensity to make everything scale to everything

Is there any evidence besides this little bit from the manga that indicates the Creation Trio's avatars vary in power? This especially doesn't make sense to me given that there's only one appearance the avatars take on, that appearance being the Dialga/Palkia/Giratina we know. Usually avatars take on a variety of forms

Because Sniper is still in the 2018 era where people said "only legendaries can scale to legendaries" kek

 

[y3p_owo]

I don't remember the last time anyone brought mewtwo to stop the CT. They go with Giratina or beg Arceus for help or pray to the stars they stop what they're doing.

Because Mewtwo is likely doing his own thing far away from everyone else, since he's not a big fan of humans, and isn't apart of the plot.

I disagree. Ash us still beneath Legendary Pokémon
1. Mewtwo beat his ass, and he wasn't even serious

Cool, then Mewtwo scales.

2. EOS didn't do much to Lugia even after attacking it with everything he got.

What's EOS?

3. I don't know how strong Goh is, compared to Ash, but Mew did him dirty. Completely toyed with him when Goh can hold his own against Ash

Ok, then Mew scales.

No matter how strong Ash gets compared to humans, he'd still be beneath many legendary Pokémon.

He's cannot be compared to many Legendaries, let alone to Arceus

Ok, what legendaries and when in the anime? Cause unless it's around the same time where Ash could scale to the CT in Journeys, then we can just chalk it up to Ash getting stronger.

 

[Sniper670]

Why wouldn't manga characters that fight the Creation Trio simply scale to them? That really shouldn't be a problem given the manga's existing propensity to make everything scale to everything

I sent scans explaining why they wouldn't scale. It's up there

Is there any evidence besides this little bit from the manga that indicates the Creation Trio's avatars vary in power? This especially doesn't make sense to me given that there's only one appearance the avatars take on, that appearance being the Dialga/Palkia/Giratina we know. Usually avatars take on a variety of forms

I sent scans describing certain events
https://vsbattles.com/threads/gotta-revise-em-all-part-2-getting-to-work.141369/post-5590568

 

[Thelastmlg]

giovanni has a mewtwo while his subordinate cyrus has palkia AND dialga so the argument was, why doesn't cyrus take over rainbow rocket then unless his pokemon are weaker than giovanni

1. wait, cyrus is his subordinate, i am not up to date with the organizations of pokemon, but team galactic is part of rainbow rocket?

2. i mean, didn't he get those just to create his own universe?

3. did rainbow rocket even exist when cyrus tried to make his new universe and then got kidnapped by giratina?

 

[Sniper670]

Because Mewtwo is likely doing his own thing far away from everyone else, since he's not a big fan of humans, and isn't apart of the plot.

They mention several times no one can stop it, even when they prepared for it. So there's that.

Cool, then Mewtwo scales

A statement without anything to back it up is meaningless.

These kinds of statements are thrown around in the anime. Doesn't mean we're just going to run with it without substantial evidence to back it up.

What's EOS?

End of Series

Ok, what legendaries and when in the anime? Cause unless it's around the same time where Ash could scale to the CT in Journeys, then we can just chalk it up to Ash getting stronger.

Why would he scale to CT?

Iirc in Journeys they couldn't do anything to the CT whatsoever they had to beg Arceus to solve their problem.

No one scales to CT here

 

[Thelastmlg]

anyway, i think is fine for specific pokemon versions to scale to the avatars if they have reasons to, but i definitely disagree with normal legendaries scaling, sounds like outliers and ash never fought the creation trio directly, all pikachu did was stagger arceus which i'm pretty sure we treat as a outlier anyway, every other time they were powerless to do anything, like when palkia and dialga started erasing that town, all they did was try to escape

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

They mention several times no one can stop it, even when they prepared for it. So there's that.

I mean, the Delta Meteor had the same thing

 

[y3p_owo]

A statement without anything to back it up is meaningless.

These kinds of statements are thrown around in the anime. Doesn't mean we're just going to run with it without substantial evidence to back it up.

I wasn't using any statements, I was going off of you saying Mewtwo casually kicked Ash's ass.

Why would he scale to CT?

Iirc, someone in here said that Cynthia canceled out one of the CT's attacks, which Ash would scale to seeing as he defeated her.

Iirc in Journeys they couldn't do anything to the CT whatsoever they had to beg Arceus to solve their problem.

Darkrai couldn't fully stop Dialga and Palkia, yet we still scale him to them for being able to survive hits from them and cancel out their attacks with his own. Why should this be any different if Cynthia canceling out an attack from one of the CT is true?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Because Sniper is still in the 2018 era where people said "only legendaries can scale to legendaries" kek

Cringe era I fear

 

[CloverDragon03]

Why would he scale to CT?

Iirc in Journeys they couldn't do anything to the CT whatsoever they had to beg Arceus to solve their problem.

No one scales to CT here

They were getting rewound a bunch so they were progressively getting weaker (aka it was just an excuse to make them chibi to promote BDSP) until eventually all their Pokemon turned back into Eggs

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

I think its fine to downscale ash from one of the CT via scaling from cynthia unless we view that feat as an outlier then ash doesn't have a way to scale to that level iirc but my problem is where the creation trio themselves scale to in the anime since from what i can find, their feat of destroying the universe in the anime seems to be only uni+ go figure

 

[CloverDragon03]

I think its fine to downscale ash from one of the CT via scaling from cynthia unless we view that feat as an outlier then ash doesn't have a way to scale to that level iirc but my problem is where the creation trio themselves scale to in the anime since from what i can find, their feat of destroying the universe in the anime seems to be only uni+ go figure

He also fought the Team Galactic Admins in the Arceus special, whose combined attack of 3 could match a combined attack from the 3 Lake Guardians. So it's not the only way he scales to that tier

Also the CT are unaffected by the canon split so they're 2-B to 2-A in all canons

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Also the CT are unaffected by the canon split so they're 2-B to 2-A in all canons

but why, it doesn't really make sense imo

 

[Sniper670]

I'm buying none of this

Send scans of any of the Pokémon ash fought scaling to the creation trio with feats

This guy couldn't even do anything to Lpugia eos, and I don't remember Ash fighting CT

 

[Sniper670]

An

Also the CT are unaffected by the canon split so they're 2-B to 2-A in all canons

The fact they're not affected doesn't mean they're the same

Manga Dialga ≠ Anime ≠ Games

But, it's coming from their true forms, a singular source.

Which is why Varies tier makes sense here