Gotta Revise 'Em All, Part 2: Getting to work

[CloverDragon03]

it is the final evolution of girafarig yes, but what is to say that it is on the same level of, say tyranitar? or alakazam? if we consider farigiraf a final evo level just because it is a final evo, then why can't we consider girafarig as a first stage when it is a first stage?

We literally have that as a standard, that each evolution stage is relative. Girafarig is simply a unique case as it used to be a fully evolved Pokemon but then got another stage that then became the new final evolution.

You'd require a higher preponderance of evidence to say Farigiraf isn't on the same level

 

[Omegabronic]

We literally have that as a standard, that each evolution stage is relative. Girafarig is simply a unique case as it used to be a fully evolved Pokemon but then got another stage that then became the new final evolution.

You'd require a higher preponderance of evidence to say Farigiraf isn't on the same level

ok, gonna make a thread about it later then, if this is a standard then this thread is not the one to discuss it, i feel

 

[Sniper670]

Unown scales to 2A at max as Arceus used them to seemingly casually recreate the CT

It depends on who is using them and for what, as well as their belief

Varies tier seems more appropriate

 

[Omegabronic]

Unown scales to 2A at max as Arceus used them to seemingly casually recreate the CT

It depends on who is using them and for what, as well as their belief

Varies tier seems more appropriate

wouldn't that just be "2-A with creation" or something? it certainly wouldn't scale to their physicals right?

 

[Sniper670]

Here's the thing. It's a subjective reality thing. It depends on what you believe.

 

[Lou_change]

It is weird recently we came to the conclusion baby Pokémon should scale to base mon when pikachu is portrayed as equal to eevee and starters first stage there is also the Piloswine prior to this revision that scaled to fully evolved Pokémon

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

It is weird recently we came to the conclusion baby Pokémon should scale to base mon when pikachu is portrayed as equal to eevee and starters first stage there is also the Piloswine prior to this revision that scaled to fully evolved Pokémon

We discussed this briefly. Simply put, that specific Pikachu and Eevee are special and unique, so they are exceptions.

 

[Sniper670]

You can train a baby Pokémon to be more powerful than a Tyranitar if you want.

Evolution is simply a quicker way to get very powerful, not the only way to get very powerful.

It was never the rule

But this is a species profile so we'd go with what the average species are capable of, and not the unique cases

 

[CloverDragon03]

Unown scales to 2A at max as Arceus used them to seemingly casually recreate the CT

It depends on who is using them and for what, as well as their belief

Varies tier seems more appropriate

Varies up to 2-B, likely 2-A

Is that good?

 

[Sniper670]

Looks good

 

[y3p_owo]

Bump

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

So what all needs to happen here?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Oh so very much

 

[LordTracer]

The stats for the games still need to be applied, but I don’t know if we’ve come to an agreement on what all the legendaries scale to (specifically the featless ones like the birds and the beasts).

 

[Omegabronic]

the most promient suggestion is to scale them to the player in the earliest point they can be fought, example mew would scale to the player by the point they arrive in slateport and can take the ticket to go battle him

 

[LordTracer]

the most promient suggestion is to scale them to the player in the earliest point they can be fought, example mew would scale to the player by the point they arrive in slateport and can take the ticket to go battle him

While I think that works for some legendaries, it’s weird for others. Like the birds, for example. If we went by the earliest point they can be fought in R/B/Y or FR/LG, they’d be 6-C. If we went with Platinum, they’d be 2-B/2-A. If we went with X/Y, they’d be High 6-A. How do we decide if one is more valid than the other?

 

[Omegabronic]

While I think that works for some legendaries, it’s weird for others. Like the birds, for example. If we went by the earliest point they can be fought in R/B/Y or FR/LG, they’d be 6-C.

moltres has a 6-C calc that is higher than the final evos, so no worries about the birds

If we went with Platinum, they’d be 2-B/2-A. If we went with X/Y, they’d be High 6-A. How do we decide if one is more valid than the other?

well, some have sugested to just scale them to 2-B/2-A and scale everyone else of that, but that was not accepted at all, so the better option would be to scale the ones that have feats to the said feats, while applying th earliest point they can be fought to the ones that are featless, like mew and mewtwo for example

 

[LordTracer]

the better option would be to scale the ones that have feats to the said feats, while applying th earliest point they can be fought to the ones that are featless, like mew and mewtwo for example

… yes, I know. I’m asking how we decide which game to base that on, hence why I used the example of the birds, who appear in multiple games with different scaling.

 

[Omegabronic]

… yes, I know. I’m asking how we decide which game to base that on, hence why I used the example of the birds, who appear in multiple games with different scaling.

well, the birds have a feat, so we can just scale them to that, now for the ones with no feats, maybe just make keys for them per game?

 

[LordTracer]

maybe just make keys for them per game?

Eh… I’m not a huge fan of that idea, but let’s see if others agree with it.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I mean if they vary that much I can see the idea working

 

[y3p_owo]

well, the birds have a feat, so we can just scale them to that, now for the ones with no feats, maybe just make keys for them per game?

Maybe not EVERY game, but I do think we should have separate keys for Legendaries who get CT scaling when they normally don't. Like, one key for the games on what they normally get and another key for games where they get like 2-A stuff.

 

[Omegabronic]

another solution is to do it like this profile does it https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Diablomon and just ad an "up to" to the statistics of the strongests of the species

 

[Omegabronic]

bump

 

[y3p_owo]

Bump

 

[y3p_owo]

So the Latios and Latias movie seem to be canon now thanks to Journeys' epilogue episodes

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Oh. Hm. That's interesting. Confirms what we thought

Also wouldn't Sheena/Damos have technical Tier 1 hax now that Avatar Arceus got upgraded ?

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

So the Latios and Latias movie seem to be canon now thanks to Journeys' epilogue episodes

WHAT?

Ash doesn't get with Latias?

Smh...

 

[y3p_owo]

Bump

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Why would he have star level when the person he's scaling to is tier 2?

ik i'm like years behind but who is he scaling to thats tier 2

 

[Sniper670]

And I forgot

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

And I forgot

also has rainbow rocket scaling been discussed for mewtwo

 

[y3p_owo]

I don't think so

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Rainbow Rocket Mewtwo should definitively scale above Cyrus' Palkia and Dialga. Considering who exactly is in Rainbow Rocket, him being their Leader already speaks volumes considering if they thought he was inadequate or weaker, they'd have just yoinked him being the scumbags they are lol.

Also, um, here's the thing, since Ash has seen and is aware of Arceus' power around two to three times, especially an Arceus that has practically all but a few of his plates and thusly wouldn't be qualitatively infinitely below his Tier 1 Stats, wouldn't Mewtwo's , Eternatus', and Leon's statements of being the strongest pokemon Ash encountered, wouldn't that apply to not neccessarily a peak Arceus, but definitively an Arceus that'd still scale to his Tier 1 Stats ?

Also while I'm on the subject, while I'm neutral on how the Game Creation Trio is handled, The Anime Creation Trio really shouldn't be qualitatively weaker than Arceus (considering Arceus chose to use his plates to be unaffected by any of their assaults rather than take them directly , had to use significant effort to get out of Palkia's ensnarement, and purposely avoided any direct attacks from them, and because of the fact they weren't oneshotted even with him purposely using the plates to amp his attacks, and clearly could get back up after every assault)

 

[King_Clab]

Also while I'm on the subject, while I'm neutral on how the Game Creation Trio is handled, The Anime Creation Trio really shouldn't be qualitatively weaker than Arceus (considering Arceus chose to use his plates to be unaffected by any of their assaults rather than take them directly , had to use significant effort to get out of Palkia's ensnarement, and purposely avoided any direct attacks from them, and because of the fact they weren't oneshotted even with him purposely using the plates to amp his attacks, and clearly could get back up after every assault)

You could make an argument that Arceus wasn't trying its best to kill the creation trio, rather than just decapitate them. Since if he killed them, the universe would be destroyed (Since the Pokémon world needs both Time and Space to function) and it's somewhat implied that the Creation Trio was Arceus's first creation. (Basically just his children)
Though, your points do make a lot of sense. (Also, I haven't watched the movie in a while. So, I might be missing some important stuff.)

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

While I do understand that line of logic, the issue is, is exactly how angry and blinded by rage he was. He was so angry he didn't care less who almost got hurt / killed (as during the flamethrower attack he had so little control he almost nuked someone not even involved in the fight). So I argue back he wasn't even in the right rational mind to really hold back.

 

[King_Clab]

While I do understand that line of logic, the issue is, is exactly how angry and blinded by rage he was. He was so angry he didn't care less who almost got hurt / killed (as during the flamethrower attack he had so little control he almost nuked someone not even involved in the fight). So I argue back he wasn't even in the right rational mind to really hold back.

Yeah, good point.

 

[Thelastmlg]

i mean, arceus didn't really do much when he actually entered the earth besides fighting the trio, sure he was told that he created the creation trio's space and the world, but besides the fact it could just be inconsistencies, honestly i'm not even sure how the cosmology was defined by the time of the movie, besides the fact it could be outliers but i am not the best at pointing why that is

also, arceus was definitely holding back, considering he didn't one shoot the earth, and if he was bent on killing them, he wouldn't have care about destroying the universe, let alone the earth or even the mountain they were in, but most importantly, arceus' personality seems to be more consistently a benevolent god who has a plan behind everything, so idk if his rage and all of that is reliable as that seems retconned

as for the rainbow rocket mewtwo part, can you explain that better, like, what exactly you mean't by yoinking and thinking he is weak or something

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

as for the rainbow rocket mewtwo part, can you explain that better, like, what exactly you mean't by yoinking and thinking he is weak or something

giovanni has a mewtwo while his subordinate cyrus has palkia AND dialga so the argument was, why doesn't cyrus take over rainbow rocket then unless his pokemon are weaker than giovanni

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Also i'm not too sure on the avatars of the creation trio scaling to multiversal/multi+, i feel like each version of the avatars need to have a different profile with feats in their own media and their true form remains the same as we scale now