Gotta Revise 'Em All, Part 2: Getting to work

[CloverDragon03]

why are we scaling eternatus to the CT or are we just upscaling from cynthia or smthn

It could match Leon’s Base Charizard in its base form

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

It could match Leon’s Base Charizard in its base form

oh, i thought there was some mega statement of eternatus being the gigachad of pokemon or smthn, though tbf the games have statements of it being the "strongest pokemon"

 

[CloverDragon03]

oh, i thought there was some mega statement of eternatus being the gigachad of pokemon or smthn, though tbf the games have statements of it being the "strongest pokemon"

The games have that statement yeah, though it seems Mewtwo is the bearer of that statement in the anime

 

[Sniper670]

They hype up legendaries all the time.

Heck, they even say Miraidon and Koraidon are far more powerful than other Pokémon, which is obviously wrong.

The same thing they do for mewtwo who literally was new to the Pokémon world.

I do think we should disregard these statements unless they're supported by lore or feats.

Don't remember the last time Legendary Pokémon had a battle Royale to determine who was the strongest.

Lore/ Feats.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Iirc the statement was just that Koraidon/Miraidon are stronger than other Pokémon in the Paldea region but I could be wrong

 

[Thelastmlg]

Literally PP is one of the reasons as to why we are differentiating the canons, it doesn't matter if it's just portrayed as stamina when its going against a lot of the reasons from the first thread either from differentiating abilities (arceus plates mechanincs being an example of this with avatars)


The legend plate doesn't allow him to do that, it changes his type automatically when he uses judgement to combat the other pokemon, my point is that the mechanics of the avatars are different per universe and they shouldn't be the same as it is literally why the whole crt exists in the first place because the pokemon differentiate between universes and should not change, i do concede slightly on only using more that 1 plate in the anime but again there are differences for how he equips plates which again are a different mechanic, the legend plate being a separate item that does it automatically via a specific move while the other plates are more manual in the games while the anime just has him transform when attacked

which is why we don't cross scale, because pokemon INSIDE of those canons work differently, arceus is outside of the canon rule there.

again, you are grabbing how an avatar handled by the player itself to represent the actual avatar we fight in legends who changes his types in the middle of the battle.

the mechanics of the avatar are not prove to be different, because again, what we do in gameplay =/= what arceus can actually do, again, his avatar changed types while fighting us freely, he doesn't need player input to equip plates and actually change plates, the plates are confirmed to be parts of him so unless he can only have 1 part inside of him at a time, he just has all of them, also the legend plate straight up says that arceus gets all the powers of the types with it, so is very clear that lore wise it works exactly like that, it only working with judgement on the avatar we use is just gameplay mechanics because arceus never needed to use an specific attack to utilize his plates.

also in the anime he doesn't need to be attacked to transform, he can also do it freely to attack as well

the "whole point" of the thread is that every pokemon below the CT and LT are affected by the canon split, nothing to do with differenting their avatars because they have not shown enough differences that aren't, again, obvious gameplay mechanics.

 

[y3p_owo]

Bump

 

[y3p_owo]

bump

 

[y3p_owo]

Bump

 

[y3p_owo]

Bump

 

[y3p_owo]

bump

 

[y3p_owo]

Bump

 

[y3p_owo]

Bump

 

[CloverDragon03]

What do we even need to do right now? I'm genuinely unsure at the moment

I've compiled all the game feats at least, some of which are Pokedex entries and are thus valid across all canons going by the standards of Ayewale's blog

 

[Thelastmlg]

same, i am lost are we even doing here now, are we supposed to start a massive profile changing and separating already, or do we have stuff to discuss and determine still, like what characters from what media deserve profiles, if we should wait for the "rpg progression upgrade" thread, or the other thread that might make meowth 2-A as he deserves, or why he is the strongest tier 0, etc?

 

[LordTracer]

if we should wait for the "rpg progression upgrade" thread

That’s already been applied.

 

[LordTracer]

I've compiled all the game feats at least, some of which are Pokedex entries and are thus valid across all canons going by the standards of Ayewale's blog

I guess we should start applying game canon stuff? Although someone should prolly sandbox the new tiers/justifications for the normal Pokemon and legendaries first, just to be sure that everything is applied properly.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I guess we should start applying game canon stuff? Although someone should prolly sandbox the new tiers/justifications for the normal Pokemon and legendaries first, just to be sure that everything is applied properly.

I can probably work on that at some point, though I’m also tied up with other threads

What’s the consensus on speed though?

 

[Omegabronic]

What do we even need to do right now? I'm genuinely unsure at the moment

I've compiled all the game feats at least, some of which are Pokedex entries and are thus valid across all canons going by the standards of Ayewale's blog

deciding what the featless legendaries will scale to

 

[Ret_of_Guys]

deciding what the featless legendaries will scale to

They currently scale to Low 6-B, is there any lower we can go?

 

[CloverDragon03]

I only care about Ash, that’s why I’m here

It’s really tricky tbh. We either end up with a comically lowballed Mewtwo or a comically busted set of birds

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Is Lusamine profile get fixed?

 

[Omegabronic]

I only care about Ash, that’s why I’m here

It’s really tricky tbh. We either end up with a comically lowballed Mewtwo or a comically busted set of birds

Mewtwo has scaling feats to gen 6, he is not in the problem, the birds have feats on their own, so we scale them to that, i propose we just scaling the featless to the earliest point the main character can fight them, mewtwo would be tier 6 due to him fighting the gen 6 protag in post game, we can from there

 

[CloverDragon03]

Mewtwo has scaling feats to gen 6, he is not in the problem, the birds have feats on their own, so we scale them to that, i propose we just scaling the featless to the earliest point the main character can fight them, mewtwo would be tier 6 due to him fighting the gen 6 protag in post game, we can from there

The birds are a problem though

Mewtwo is supposedly the strongest Pokemon (in Kanto at least) yet these random ass birds are like infinitely above him if we scale them to 2-B to 2-A via being fought after Giratina

 

[LordTracer]

This is one of the reasons I suggested that we scale the legends to when they’re fought in the region they originate from

 

[CloverDragon03]

This is one of the reasons I suggested that we scale the legends to when they’re fought in the region they originate from

Not even gonna lie, the main thing holding me back from that is that Mewtwo being only 6-C just feels so wrong

 

[LordTracer]

Not even gonna lie, the main thing holding me back from that is that Mewtwo being only 6-C just feels so wrong

I mean, if there is actually a statement of Mewtwo being the strongest Pokémon in FR/LG, we could scale him above the likes of Lugia, Ho-Oh and Deoxys, since they‘re event Pokémon in those games.

 

[CloverDragon03]

That could work.

Also, for other featless legendaries, we could scale them to "At least [tier corresponding to earliest they can be fought in game]"

 

[LordTracer]

So, the closest things I’ve found to Mewtwo being stated as the strongest are these statements:

”MEWTWO is far too powerful. We have failed to curb its vicious tendencies…” from the Pokemon Mansion journals in FR/LG.

”Because its battle abilities were raised to the ultimate level, it thinks only of defeating its foes.” from its Pokedex entries in Gold and HeartGold.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

So, the closest things I’ve found to Mewtwo being stated as the strongest are these statements:

”MEWTWO is far too powerful. We have failed to curb its vicious tendencies…” from the Pokemon Mansion journals in FR/LG.

”Because its battle abilities were raised to the ultimate level, it thinks only of defeating its foes.” from its Pokedex entries in Gold and HeartGold.

The 2nd one definitely implicates it way more than the 1st, considering other event legendaries in HeartGold yet its battle abilities are referred to as being of the ultimate level in comparison.

 

[LordTracer]

The one thing with the HeartGold statement is that the Creation Trio are event legends in that game, but they’re also newborn, so I don’t know how that would work out with the scaling.

Aside from that though, it’d scale Mewtwo above Groudon, Kyogre and Rayquaza, so High 6-A or 5-B (I’m not entirely sure where Rayquaza is scaling).

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Rayquaza probably will end up being High 6-A with the Primals

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I mean there is no real lore implications between a just born CT and the CT we know of. Especially when Cynthia directly afterward describes them aa no different from the one she knows of. It'd require actual evidence proving

Also, interestingly enough they also show Arceus using the Unown to create the CT, just like the Manga, so that's something to notate.

 

[LordTracer]

Especially when Cynthia directly afterward describes them aa no different from the one she knows of.

I mean… yeah, because they’re the same Pokémon. Unless I missed something, Cynthia doesn’t have info analysis, she can’t just tell how strong a Pokémon is by looking at it.

 

[Omegabronic]

The birds are a problem though

Mewtwo is supposedly the strongest Pokemon (in Kanto at least) yet these random ass birds are like infinitely above him if we scale them to 2-B to 2-A via being fought after Giratina

just make them a new sinoh key, like, no one ever brought a good problem with that, the birds are in another region, what stops the ones from sinoh specifically to being stronger than the ones in past?

 

[Omegabronic]

The one thing with the HeartGold statement is that the Creation Trio are event legends in that game, but they’re also newborn, so I don’t know how that would work out with the scaling.

Aside from that though, it’d scale Mewtwo above Groudon, Kyogre and Rayquaza, so High 6-A or 5-B (I’m not entirely sure where Rayquaza is scaling).

rayquaza only scales to 5-B in mega form now, base is tier 6

 

[LordTracer]

rayquaza only scales to 5-B in mega form now, base is tier 6

Okay, so then High 6-A Mewtwo.

 

[y3p_owo]

Let's just make all the Legendaries scale to the CT and call it a day-

 

[King_Clab]

I have a couple of questions...
So, are the Ultra Beasts still going to be 3-C?
Would Anime Mewtwo scale to World Champion Ash? (Since last time Mewtwo fought ash, it was WAY before he became champion)
Is Mega Rayquaza still 3-C?
And what about 50% and Complete Zygard? (50% fought Mega Mewtwo X, while Complete Zygard fought Ultra Necrozma in the Manga Respectively. I'm not sure what Zygard does in the anime and games.)

 

[CloverDragon03]

just make them a new sinoh key, like, no one ever brought a good problem with that, the birds are in another region, what stops the ones from sinoh specifically to being stronger than the ones in past?

Trainers becoming strong enough to contend with legends is one thing but wild Pokémon… not so much. You really gonna tell me these wild birds are stronger than the Creation Trio?