Gotta Revise 'Em All, Part 2: Getting to work

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

The portrayal of legendary Pokemon is that they're stronger than your average Pokemon. In many cases, that strength is what sparks legends about them to begin with.

Box-art legendaries, sure. They usually have feats or implied scaling (in the case of Suicune)

But what feat or lore does mythicals have usually? Almost none. There are cases like Marshadow where we are told its powers are dependent on the things he's copying, which should be a variable tier. There's Manaphy that we are only told it can create bonds with anything (and its special move is debatably soul/empathic hax).

But Mew? Literally none (unless we use the encounter method) though it at least can use transform and having the dna of everything to give it a tier regardless (which would still be variable overall imo).

I just don't like grouping people arbitrarily without an actual reason that can apply collectively. Legendary/Mythicals are individual enough, unlike normal 'mons we can scale like that thanks to a myriad of examples given by the pokedex suggesting there's a clear hierarchy between evolutions and species.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

So um I'm here because I discuss this with a few people concerning Pokemon, and I have a few questions concerning the Anime scaling. I am not saying Ash scaling to the Creation Trio is wrong, however I do have a few things to notate.

While I agree it wasn't neccessarily World Champion Ash that Mewtwo won against, Mewtwo had very specific statements of being the strongest Pokemon Ash encountered / knew about up to that point in time (which considering he saw Leon and Lance's clash near the start of the Journeys anime I doubt he'd just confirm Mewtwo's statement without also forgetting one of the most motivational battles that hyped up his whole point of wanting to challenge Leon). Not to mention how Lugia treated a Post-World Champion Ash's Pikachu (The fight was in Episode 135, Ash's final battle with Leon is Episode 132, meaning there is no continuity errors to be had, Ash's Pikachu just got no sold and bodied).

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

So um I'm here because I discuss this with a few people concerning Pokemon, and I have a few questions concerning the Anime scaling. I am not saying Ash scaling to the Creation Trio is wrong, however I do have a few things to notate.

While I agree it wasn't neccessarily World Champion Ash that Mewtwo won against, Mewtwo had very specific statements of being the strongest Pokemon Ash encountered / knew about up to that point in time (which considering he saw Leon and Lance's clash near the start of the Journeys anime I doubt he'd just confirm Mewtwo's statement without also forgetting one of the most motivational battles that hyped up his whole point of wanting to challenge Leon). Not to mention how Lugia treated a Post-World Champion Ash's Pikachu (The fight was in Episode 135, Ash's final battle with Leon is Episode 132, meaning there is no continuity errors to be had, Ash's Pikachu just got no sold and bodied).

To be noted also, Ayewale himself scales Mewtwo (and Mew) to tier 2. So yeh.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Anime Mewtwo is going to be 2-B, likely 2-A, so that point checks out

Lugia is pretty weird though. It's probably the same Lugia as the one in episode 2 of Journeys, but I don't think that Lugia is the same as the movie one and we're typically avoiding making profiles for wild Pokemon in the anime (aside from those with a consistent scale, like the Creation Trio or the Sun and Moon anime Bewear) because their scaling gets pretty whack

 

[Omegabronic]

This thread is based on applying what is already accepted to a cross-scaling split. Changing anything about the Creation Trio or Arceus probably requires its own thread since they are unaffected by the split

for now

https://uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/mr-burns-feat-uproxx.jpg?w=650

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Noted Lephyr & Clover. Thanks for the clarification. Okay. Also good god if Cynthia's Journeys Garchomp is Tier 2 (which makes sense because yeah she's intentionally has always been at the top of the power levels trainer wise) then the Unown from the Movies/Anime would be as well. Frickin... I knew I was right lol.

 

[Omegabronic]

Box-art legendaries, sure. They usually have feats or implied scaling (in the case of Suicune)

But what feat or lore does mythicals have usually? Almost none. There are cases like Marshadow where we are told its powers are dependent on the things he's copying, which should be a variable tier. There's Manaphy that we are only told it can create bonds with anything (and its special move is debatably soul/empathic hax).

But Mew? Literally none (unless we use the encounter method) though it at least can use transform and having the dna of everything to give it a tier regardless (which would still be variable overall imo).

I just don't like grouping people arbitrarily without an actual reason that can apply collectively. Legendary/Mythicals are individual enough, unlike normal 'mons we can scale like that thanks to a myriad of examples given by the pokedex suggesting there's a clear hierarchy between evolutions and species.

i agree with this, we just scale them based on when the player fight them, or if the player doesn't, then just put them at unknown and call it a day

 

[CloverDragon03]

Noted Lephyr & Clover. Thanks for the clarification. Okay. Also good god if Cynthia's Journeys Garchomp is Tier 2 (which makes sense because yeah she's intentionally has always been at the top of the power levels trainer wise) then the Unown from the Movies/Anime would be as well. Frickin... I knew I was right lol.

And now Ash stands at the top of the food chain of Trainers

What a guy

 

[Sniper670]

And now Ash stands at the top of the food chain of Trainers

What a guy

Didn't Misty beat him in the 11 special episodes?

Misty > Ash

 

[CloverDragon03]

Didn't Misty beat him in the 11 special episodes?

Misty > Ash

Corphish

She beat his Corphish. Pikachu would've caught a body that day

 

[Emerald]

Btw Regigigas will be Low 6-B via its towing the continents feat

Is there a calc for that?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Anime Mewtwo is going to be 2-B, likely 2-A, so that point checks out

Is that because he fought Ash and Goh?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Is that because he fought Ash and Goh?

It's considered the strongest Pokemon by Ash, who has faced Dialga and Palkia

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

It's considered the strongest Pokemon by Ash, who has faced Dialga and Palkia

Don't think Ash fought those two head-on tho, he did attack Arceus tho
Also, doesn't Anime Mewtwo also have a bunch of anti-feats in his second appearance?

 

[Sniper670]

Also, doesn't Anime Mewtwo also have a bunch of anti-feats in his second appearance?

Hmm..... Which ones?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Hmm..... Which ones?

Getting KOed by a Tyranitar and getting hurt by a Magmar's flamethrower

 

[y3p_owo]

Getting KOed by a Tyranitar and getting hurt by a Magmar's flamethrower

Wasn't that in the Genesect movie and it's prequel? If so, I'm pretty sure they're a different Mewtwo than Movie 1 Mewtwo.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Wasn't that in the Genesect movie and it's prequel? If so, I'm pretty sure they're a different Mewtwo than Movie 1 Mewtwo.

Pretty sure the first one comes from Mewtwo Returns and second one comes from Birth of Mewtwo, which are both about the Movie 1 Mewtwo

 

[Sniper670]

The movies are fond of contradicting both lore and events happening within the series itself.

For instance, that Mewtwo is not the same as the the one Ash fought in Journeys. There's supposed to be only one Mewtwo, so where from two?

And events in the movies. Are they ever referenced in the series?

Arceus had its JOL with the guys in the town, so how did team X (forgot the name), come into possession of one of them?

Arceus took all plates with him so how did humans acquire flame plate in Journeys?

The movies are full of contradictions like this. Some minor, others significant

What should we do about it?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

The Dragon Ball way (The best way) is to make all non-referenced movies non-canon

 

[y3p_owo]

Pretty sure the first one comes from Mewtwo Returns and second one comes from Birth of Mewtwo, which are both about the Movie 1 Mewtwo

Currently looking through Mewtwo Returns for the Tyranitar scene, and I couldn't find it.

I also found something interesting while looking through it. I found out that in Mewtwo Returns, Mewtwo had gotten stronger after the events of Mewtwo Strikes Back.

And events in the movies. Are they ever referenced in the series?

Mewtwo has been in the Veridian Gym episode.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Currently looking through Mewtwo Returns for the Tyranitar scene, and I couldn't find it.

After looking for it, seems that the Tyranitar scene was for the Genesect Mewtwo, like you said.

Movie 1 is definitely canon, not sure about the other movies tho

 

[CloverDragon03]

After looking for it, seems that the Tyranitar scene was for the Genesect Mewtwo, like you said.

Movie 1 is definitely canon, not sure about the other movies tho

Yeah, the Genesect movie Mewtwo is a different entity from... pretty much every other Mewtwo

 

[Omegabronic]

Yeah, the Genesect movie Mewtwo is a different entity from... pretty much every other Mewtwo

wasn't even from a different gender? plus it can mega evolve by itself

 

[Sniper670]

But wasn't Mewtwo one of a kind?

How come there's two? Unless Mewtwo decided to clone himself, of which is never mentioned once

 

[CloverDragon03]

wasn't even from a different gender? plus it can mega evolve by itself

Idk anymore but it did have a more feminine voice

But wasn't Mewtwo one of a kind?

How come there's two? Unless Mewtwo decided to clone himself, of which is never mentioned once

Because PLOT... I guess idk

 

[TheGreatMaster12]

If nobody has say it yet then I would do it, Calyrex should scale to Eternatus, as it fought it and beat the Dragon in the past.

 

[CloverDragon03]

When is this said? I don't really know much about Calyrex, so...

 

[TheGreatMaster12]

When is this said? I don't really know much about Calyrex, so...

Is said with ruins made for Calyrex and additional context of the Pokédex, one of Calyrex entries explains that it saves an entire forest from a meteor, Eternatus is said to have come from a meteor 20000 years in the past, Calyrex is loved as a god by the people of a specific town that I forget the name, the people of that town created some statues on its honor, those statues said some lore about Calyrex, one of them talks about how they found Calyrex incredibly hurt, almost dead, with wounds from a fight, they heal it, but they were all forced to keep their hands closed in a fist position, because seeing an OPEN PALM make Calyrex have panic attacks, what creature in Galar has the same appearance of an open palm?

 

[Omegabronic]

Because PLOT... I guess idk

i mean, if someone made a mewtwo once, it can be done again i guess??

 

[Sniper670]

I think there is grounds to make those movies non canon.

Most of them just cannot fit into the timeline of the series. There's just no gap

 

[Omegabronic]

I think there is grounds to make those movies non canon.

Most of them just cannot fit into the timeline of the series. There's just no gap

except the first one, the mewtwo one, that one is 100% canon to the anime

 

[y3p_owo]

And Lugia, since Ash says he met one on the Orange Island. (10:56)

 

[Ret_of_Guys]

Noted Lephyr & Clover. Thanks for the clarification. Okay. Also good god if Cynthia's Journeys Garchomp is Tier 2 (which makes sense because yeah she's intentionally has always been at the top of the power levels trainer wise) then the Unown from the Movies/Anime would be as well. Frickin... I knew I was right lol.

Ooh... Garchomp is Tier 2, and 5 Unown managed to create a copy of that Garchomp which was only beaten by evasion hax abuse. Imagine a whole dimension of them.
Do the Movies Unown scale to that though? I think they do

 

[Sniper670]

Unown are pretty much "we can do anything you can imagine".

One Unown was able to enter and merge with a Pokémon's mind and create an entire dimension out of it. Just one

They should scale to 2A tbh.

 

[Ego]

Unown are pretty much "we can do anything you can imagine".

One Unown was able to enter and merge with a Pokémon's mind and create an entire dimension out of it. Just one

They should scale to 2A tbh.

So they're omnipotent?

 

[Omegabronic]

Unown are pretty much "we can do anything you can imagine".

One Unown was able to enter and merge with a Pokémon's mind and create an entire dimension out of it. Just one

They should scale to 2A tbh.

only in the anime maybe, in the games they have no scaling at all

 

[Ego]

only in the anime maybe, in the games they have no scaling at all

I forgot about the canon split

 

[StekFence]

So they're omnipotent?

As far as reality warping can be omnipotent I suppose

 

[Sniper670]

So they're omnipotent?

Within the context of the verse yes.

Didn't Arceus create one of the CT with them in the games?

That sequence was unclear