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Gotta Revise 'Em All, Part 2: Getting to work

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Spinoirr said:
It should be

Frist stage, second stage, third stage
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Only thing I can see that becoming a problem is we scale Pikachu to first stage starters. Specially because we used to scale Eevee to Pikachu directly (because of Yellow and Let's Go).

That might've been where the entire thing started of baby 'mons being weaker. I personally would suggest that Yellow Pikachu and Let's Go Pikachu and Eevee are special cases (particularly in Let's Go, where they can learn special moves exclusive to themselves) and shouldn't reflect the average of the species.
 
Personally, I think that while scaling most x stage pokemon to one another is a fair concept, there would be a number of exceptions that would be sorely obvious under a bit of scrutiny. There isn't much coming to mind outside of the aforementioned cases that seem a bit iffy, but I think it'd be fair to categorize a few specific pokemon Species as stronger than other's if they consistently portray x amount of power as a species where other pokemon of the same stage are shown not to be on that level. and it should certainly be mentioned that the Let's Go! Mon are clear exceptions as posited above, seeing as they learn unique skills other's of their species don't. To a lesser extent, I agree with this case being made for Yellow Pikachu.

Tl;dr, uh... Maybe there are some exceptions to the idea of all X stage mon's being relative, jusssst saying
 
TheKingStrategist13 said:
Personally, I think that while scaling most x stage pokemon to one another is a fair concept, there would be a number of exceptions that would be sorely obvious under a bit of scrutiny. There isn't much coming to mind outside of the aforementioned cases that seem a bit iffy, but I think it'd be fair to categorize a few specific pokemon Species as stronger than other's if they consistently portray x amount of power as a species where other pokemon of the same stage are shown not to be on that level. and it should certainly be mentioned that the Let's Go! Mon are clear exceptions as posited above, seeing as they learn unique skills other's of their species don't. To a lesser extent, I agree with this case being made for Yellow Pikachu.

Tl;dr, uh... Maybe there are some exceptions to the idea of all X stage mon's being relative, jusssst saying
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This is true most definitely with single stage mons. Couple of pages back on the thread, I brought up the case of Dhelmise, who is stated capable of truncating Wailord, who is capable of devouring school-form Wishiwashi, who can scare entire groups of Gyarados.

This 100% is not scalable to peeps like Zangoose or Seviper, who despite being single stage like Dhelmise, have basically 0 reason to scale to such high level.

In the absolute contrast to Dhelmise, we have Aerodactyl, who gets taken down by "lowly" Cranidos.

So yeh, agree 100% that some mons should be more closely looked at to ascertain their proper level.
 
No idea on those. I didn't even know there was a potential Tier 6 for final stage Pokemon
 
omegabronic said:
for the ftl golem calc, since it is from go, is it usable? wasn't go decided to be another canon?
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Go should be in the main series canon since you literally transfer Pokemon from Go to Home, then from Home to the likes of SwSh, Legends, LGPE, BDSPand soon SV
 
another concern that i just thought of, the golem used in the go calc is from a trainer right? so since out profiles are from wild species, can it really be used?
 
omegabronic said:
another concern that i just thought of, the golem used in the go calc is from a trainer right? so since out profiles are from wild species, can it really be used?
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Trainer Pokemon are usually scaled to the same tiers as their wild counterparts so it should be fine
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Trainer Pokemon are usually scaled to the same tiers as their wild counterparts so it should be fine
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Eh… trainer Pokemon can also be significantly stronger than wild Pokémon. I don’t know if we should be saying that every Golem has the same capabilities of this trained one.
 
LordTracer said:
Eh… trainer Pokemon can also be significantly stronger than wild Pokémon. I don’t know if we should be saying that every Golem has the same capabilities of this trained one.
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Even a newly caught Golem can do this tho, that's the thing
 
we can have something like this and have something like "at least massively hypersonic up to ftl" for final stages, i think this would make sense, or not, just putting out the possible solutions
 
It_is_i_wyatt said:
these look like the most potentially usable but theres a few others Abomasnow makes it snow, Salamance vaporizes mountains, Sawk splits an ocean, Various mountain bustings

idk if any of these are accepted or rejected i just found them searching for pokemon calcs a while ago
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I'm pretty iffy on all these calcs, but I will say that there is one that has merit to it: Gyarados and Salamence burning mountains to the ground.

However, I don't agree with the calcs themselves, as "mountain" is very vague and it doesn't need to be a noteworthy mountain in the Pokemon world by any means. I propose using the common feat of vaporizing a mountain, which results in 4.9 gigatons, which is 6-C
 
Also I'm just very iffy on anything that starts getting close to the AP of the lowest-rated legendary Pokemon, that being Lugia's 6-B calc. I feel like High 6-C+ final evos is really creeping up on that territory, but of course there's also the fact that the calc itself needs some fixing. I'll put it in here so that people can see it (and so I can make it into a blog later). Please note though that while I will be using the measurements from the Narutoforums calc, I have absolutely no idea where the measurements came from.

Cloud Surface Area = 79540 * 44620 = 3549074800 meters^2

These are nimbostratus clouds.

Cloud Height = 3000 meters

Cloud Altitude = 1828.8 meters

Cloud Mass = 8018125792404.32 kg

Here's the thing, though. I don't agree with KE, as the clouds are never shown to be moving. So, I'll do condensation instead.

Latent Heat of Vaporization = 2264705 Joules/kg

AP = 8018125792404.32 * 2264705 = 1.81586896e+19 Joules or 4.34 gigatons; Island level (6-C)

In case y'all are wondering, KE would be like this:

AP = (1/12) * 8018125792404.32 * 26513.3^2 = 4.69698519e+20 Joules or 112.26 gigatons; Large Island level (High 6-C)
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Also I'm just very iffy on anything that starts getting close to the AP of the lowest-rated legendary Pokemon, that being Lugia's 6-B calc. I feel like High 6-C+ final evos is really creeping up on that territory
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I don't see much problem tbh, some legendaries don't have much of a scale, and the ones that have would just scale above
 
yeah if final evos start reaching toward the weakest legendries then the legendaries would just upscale, besides, the strongest normal pokemon leading into the strength of the weakest legendaries makes sense
 
tbh, legendaries don't have to be above every normal mon, they are legendaries because they have legends about them, so at worst we could have some normal mons above some weaker legendaries
 
omegabronic said:
tbh, legendaries don't have to be above every normal mon, they are legendaries because they have legends about them, so at worst we could have some normal mons above some weaker legendaries
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100% agree. But to be fair, Shaymin already is possibly tier 2 imo, given the player challenges it after dealing with the creation trio already in the main story of Diamond/Pearl/Platinum.

The legendary birds we were discussing earlier whether they qualify to upscale to that, given they too are fought after the story mode of gen 4.

Nevertheless, the extreme casual nature of these two feats does suggest a general superiority to normal mons for these two legendaries (and the people that scale to Moltres directly, like Mewtwo on Kanto and the rest of the bird trio) at the very least.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
100% agree. But to be fair, Shaymin already is possibly tier 2 imo, given the player challenges it after dealing with the creation trio already in the main story of Diamond/Pearl/Platinum.

The legendary birds we were discussing earlier whether they qualify to upscale to that, given they too are fought after the story mode of gen 4.

Nevertheless, the extreme casual nature of these two feats does suggest a general superiority to normal mons for these two legendaries (and the people that scale to Moltres directly, like Mewtwo on Kanto and the rest of the bird trio) at the very least.
Click to expand...
the birds would also be tier 2 then? if so, would it affect lugia? does lugia have any conection to the birds at all in the games? i don't remember
But hey, tier 2 base mewtwo, and with mega evolution, i think he really would be the strongest, huh covenient lol
 
omegabronic said:
the birds would also be tier 2 then? if so, would it affect lugia? does lugia have any conection to the birds at all in the games? i don't remember
But hey, tier 2 base mewtwo, and with mega evolution, i think he really would be the strongest, huh covenient lol
Click to expand...
Me personally, I'm iffy on that. Through the birds, a lot of people would start scaling all around. So we stopped that conversation with "maybe if we make different keys for the games" and only in gen 4 would they scale.

As for Lugia, I don't remember any explicit connection to the birds in the games, however, the legendary beasts would scale from being fought after the elite 4 in FR/LG, which naturally is after Red already fought the birds. Through the beasts, Ho-Oh scales, which then Lugia scales.

It's a mess lol
 
Ho-Oh and Lugia, to my knowledge, don't have many games/feats anyways. Unless you want to throw in weird stuff like the battles in ORAS and USUM or what not, I think it's mainly just Johto region things.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Me personally, I'm iffy on that. Through the birds, a lot of people would start scaling all around. So we stopped that conversation with "maybe if we make different keys for the games" and only in gen 4 would they scale.
Click to expand...
is there a reason to believe that the birds got stronger between gens? like, they don't have any notable feats in the other gens, the one from moltres is like casual from him flying, so i believe they should, there is really no problem

it is like marvel and dc, scaling chains make so many people tier 3, it is a mess, but i still love it
 
talking about sun and moon, groundon and kyogre would also scale because of the rainbow rocket event, all the evil team leaders have their respective legendaries, and all of them were taken from the moment they were making their plans in the original games, so there is and argument from every major legendary from gen 6 and below to scale to tier 2
 
omegabronic said:
is there a reason to believe that the birds got stronger between gens? like, they don't have any notable feats in the other gens, the one from moltres is like casual from him flying, so i believe they should, there is really no problem

it is like marvel and dc, scaling chains make so many people tier 3, it is a mess, but i still love it
Click to expand...
The problem is, when so many randomly scale, it becomes harder to prove the legitimacy of the scaling in the first place. It's why DC and Marvel have scaling rules in place. Doesn't make sense that the theme of Sinnoh was to create the "ultimate" and "definitive" version of a pkmn through the creation trio, when suddenly so many apparently always had these levels of power. Breaks the setting, in a way.

That's why I personally dislike abusing scaling like this.
 
omegabronic said:
talking about sun and moon, groundon and kyogre would also scale because of the rainbow rocket event, all the evil team leaders have their respective legendaries, and all of them were taken from the moment they were making their plans in the original games, so there is and argument from every major legendary from gen 6 and below to scale to tier 2
Click to expand...
Yes, I mentioned as much when I proposed the reasoning and briefly discussed it with @TheKingStrategist13
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
The problem is, when so many randomly scale, it becomes harder to prove the legitimacy of the scaling in the first place. It's why DC and Marvel have scaling rules in place. Doesn't make sense that the theme of Sinnoh was to create the "ultimate" and "definitive" version of a pkmn through the creation trio, when suddenly so many apparently always had these levels of power. Breaks the setting, in a way.

That's why I personally dislike abusing scaling like this.
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not really, the creation trio has hax to do so, most of the legendaries prior to gen 4 didn't have a way to do what cyrus was trying to do, they all were strong, but they couldn't control time and space, this is more of a matter of hax rather than power in my vision
 
omegabronic said:
not really, the creation trio has hax to do so, most of the legendaries prior to gen 4 didn't have a way to do what cyrus was trying to do, they all were strong, but they couldn't control time and space, this is more of a matter of hax rather than power in my vision
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I think what you mean is they don't have the AoE and influence. What the CT did wasn't just a hax component (though it included it, since Cyrus was trying to erase Spirit). It included their raw power over a greater area than ever before achieved, and the only thing that came close to it is Necrozma with Ultra Space shenanigans.
 
Yeah no we are not scaling all these legendaries to Tier 2. No legendaries have feats close to this besides the Creation Trio and this would be an abuse of scaling. In addition, these RR legendaries are trainer-owned Pokémon to begin with
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
I think what you mean is they don't have the AoE and influence. What the CT did wasn't just a hax component (though it included it, since Cyrus was trying to erase Spirit). It included their raw power over a greater area than ever before achieved, and the only thing that came close to it is Necrozma with Ultra Space shenanigans.
Click to expand...
yeah basically, range, that is what i meant

CloverDragon03 said:
Yeah no we are not scaling all these legendaries to Tier 2. No legendaries have feats close to this besides the Creation Trio and this would be an abuse of scaling. In addition, these RR legendaries are trainer-owned Pokémon to begin with
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i understand your concern, but also, i can't think of a good reason for them not scaling, some of them don't have any feats period, but about the RR legends, at least the hoen ones are from directly the end of ruby and saphirre, no time in between, archie and maxie are directly from their failed plans at the end of the hoen, with the only difference being the absence of the protagonists, but then again, i kinda of understand your concern i just can't put in words, huh
 
At most, we’ll scale RR Leaders and RR Elio/Selene to Low 2-C (the tier that a restrained Dialga/Palkia would scale to) but because these legendaries are trainer owned and their other Pokémon put up as much of a fight as said legendaries, it wouldn’t be right to scale them all to such a rating
 
omegabronic said:
is there a reason to believe that the birds got stronger between gens? like, they don't have any notable feats in the other gens, the one from moltres is like casual from him flying, so i believe they should, there is really no problem

it is like marvel and dc, scaling chains make so many people tier 3, it is a mess, but i still love it
Click to expand...
There is also the fact that there could very well be multiple versions of the Legendary Birds as heavily supported by the fact there are regional variants as well as a few other distinct little supporting facts

Well, implying that RBY/FRLG Red (and by extension, Blue) would be Tier 2 seems like a fallacy, and Red in the late/end game battles the Legendary Birds as well as Mewtwo, who is pretty much the strongest Wild Pokemon in Kanto. There is no reason to believe the Gen 4 and Gen 1 bird's are inherently at the same level of power (Or even that they are the same versions of them). It just makes much more logical sense for them to be much stronger in Gen 4 than for everyone and their grandma to scale (For example, Gold would scale to tier 2 because he battle's Red on Mount Silver. From there, a hypothetical argument could be made to backscale and have Silver's team be tier 2, or the Elite 4 and Lance to be in that tier, etc, and that's just messy.).


omegabronic said:
talking about sun and moon, groundon and kyogre would also scale because of the rainbow rocket event, all the evil team leaders have their respective legendaries, and all of them were taken from the moment they were making their plans in the original games, so there is and argument from every major legendary from gen 6 and below to scale to tier 2
Click to expand...
Only the trainer caught Groudon and Kyogre. We know these to be alternate universe versions of these character's and pokemon, and if you take away this feat, there is little indication that the RSE versions of this trio would scale. Even ORAS Versions likely don't scale (I'm not sure if I am forgetting something about them that does make them scale in the remakes or not), either, and if they do it certainly shouldn't affect other versions of the Pokemon. These RR Pokemon come from specific universes, so at most, only that universes specific version should really be that powerful.
 
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