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Goku vs. Garou (Martial Arts Battle)

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Vietthai96 said:
Sure, let call someone who disagree with you a child, what a way to debate
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Reasons why I called you a child.
1. you've been told and shown evidence that Hit stops time but you still insist say "No i'm talking about the anime" when it's literally the same thing in the anime
2. You went ahead to use baseless logic and headcannon to support your motive saying things like "Hit didn't stop time cuz if he did goku wouldn't be able to predict" when chuckles that's literally what happened.
3. After other people apart from myself such as @Arnoldstone18 and @Greatsage13th have told you Hit actually stops time with backed up logic and evidence you still went ahead to utter "He skip time" like at this point the things you say are just laughable...

so yeah that's why I called you a child, sorry tho if you were offended by it
 
JOLTxx said:
Mention an unskilled DB villain apart from Broly and Moro
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Funny because my guy fights cell who's literally and narratively the actual embodiment of the old generation of fighters before Gohan's age with literally all their techniques, skills, experience and power. A literal test of not only goku's development as a martial artist and character but of Gohan's against the same thing (that including his father since cell had his DNA and techniques as well) and since Goku later in Z outskills this same gohan with years of training Goku too by the buu saga narratively and directly shows his growth as a fighter through Z having surpassed Cell who again in the actual embodiment of the skill and experience of the last generation of fighters making goku skillstomp his prior self from earlier points in Z
 
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FluffyCreatureZ said:
He's clearly exaggerating, not literally infinite. And dragon ball does have a large progression of skill even in Z.
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Dalesean027 said:
Funny because my guy fights cell who's literally and narratively the actual embodiment of the old generation of fighters before Gohan's age with literally all their techniques, skills, experience and power. A literal test of not only goku's development as a martial artist and character but of Gohan's against the same thing (that including his father since cell had his DNA and techniques as well) and since Goku later in Z outskills this same gohan with years of training Goku too by the buu saga narratively and directly shows his growth as a fighter through Z having surpassed Cell who again in the actual embodiment of the skill and experience of the last generation of fighters making goku skillstomp his prior self from earlier points in Z
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Hehe... well said
 
I think the main issue here for Z if one truely thinks there was no skill feats or increases is that people are equating how the fights were animated and look visually versus how the actual narrative and arcs that tell you what's going on literally prime example is what I just said in terms of cell where some of the best skill feats come from a basic comprehension of the characters lore and narrative arcs clashing together since dragon ball does mix them together often instead of just saying "goku used the duraility negating big bang massive dookie punch" or some shit
 
Dalesean027 said:
I think the main issue here for Z if one truely thinks there was no skill feats or increases is that people are equating how the fights were animated and look visually versus how the actual narrative and arcs that tell you what's going on literally prime example is what I just said in terms of cell where some of the best skill feats come from a basic comprehension of the characters lore and narrative arcs clashing together since dragon ball does mix them together often instead of just saying "goku used the duraility negating big bang massive dookie punch" or some shit
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Yes I think this is basically it... because of the way the H2H fights are usually portrayed some people think DB characters lack martial arts skills... I met someone that was saying "There's no skill in dragonball, all they do is punch and kick really fast, scream and change hair colors".
 
This is some infinite skill Ben 10 because he can fight against dr.paradox who's infinitely old level shit.
Not to mention we still haven't even gotten a translation.
And that it requires outside help from GOD
 
Kin201 said:
With his copying hax in the new chapter? Do you think he can copy Ultra Instinct?
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Relax, all he did was mimic Saitama's facial appearance, as far as I've seen TLs for, and the rest of the fight doesn't visual imply any other instance of mimicry either
 
Shey said:
Relax, all he did was mimic Saitama's facial appearance, as far as I've seen TLs for, and the rest of the fight doesn't visual imply any other instance of mimicry either
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He did copy at least one of Saitama's techniques though. And according to himself, he also improved it.
 
Kin201 said:
He did copy at least one of Saitama's techniques though. And according to himself, he also improved it.
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I mean, improving a technique from Saitama wich consists of punching fast is pretty... worthless
 
The scans
. Basically Bang's WSRSF utilizes the flow of energy found in raging currents and tidal surges and Garou's ability to copy comes from the ability to adapt to that flow.

Cosmic fear Garou received knowledge over all flows of energies in the universe and their behaviour, greatly upgrading his regular copying, such as letting him borrow power (obvioualy only to a certain extent) from the people and animals he copies and allowing him to copy cosmic phenomenom, such as atomic fission (wich sets of radiation alarms) and a Gamma ray burst.
Still, this is only possible with external help from God, so while he's in control God gave him a boost in skill too
.
 
Epiccheev said:
The scans
. Basically Bang's WSRSF utilizes the flow of energy found in raging currents and tidal surges and Garou's ability to copy comes from the ability to adapt to that flow.

Cosmic fear Garou received knowledge over all flows of energies in the universe and their behaviour, greatly upgrading his regular copying, such as letting him borrow power (obvioualy only to a certain extent) from the people and animals he copies and allowing him to copy cosmic phenomenom, such as atomic fission (wich sets of radiation alarms) and a Gamma ray burst.
Still, this is only possible with external help from God, so while he's in control God gave him a boost in skill too
.
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Okay to be fair garou copying saitama is absolute dogshit for a skill feat since its been noted many times he's got absolutely no form of diciplined fighting skill or martial arts technique but the rest is good though it's as you said a great skill boost from god
 
Yeah, copying Saitama would make no sense from a technique standpoint, even if he honed it and upgraded it to a much better version.
It does say that his Shakkei "borrows power from nature by copying living things" so i'm guessing the correct interpretation is he can borrow Saitama's power to an extent.
(Makes absolutely no sense tho, as it's not like any of Saitama's power comes from how he moves or the like)
 
Dalesean027 said:
Okay to be fair garou copying saitama is absolute dogshit for a skill feat since its been noted many times he's got absolutely no form of diciplined fighting skill or martial arts technique but the rest is good though it's as you said a great skill boost from god
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Worst part is IT'S BEEN NOTED BY GAROU HIMSELF Saitama is an amateur without notable technique.

I really don't understand why he would copy Saitama and hone his techniques when he already has much better. Maybe he wanted to humiliate him, but its not like Saitama has ever shown to take pride over his fighting skills.

Guess the difference between the new Shakkei thing and his previous copying is he can borrow some of the copied person's power by mimicking their movements?
(Wich is a hard blow to my ability to retain suspension of disbelief)
 
Okay so, I've talked to some other DB fans and I think Goku is actually a lot less skilled than Garou lol. And when I say a lot less skilled, I mean that Garou would look at him one time and immediately go on to skill stomp him.

I'll explain my reasoning as to why at some point, but basically it comes to down to how skill is actually applied in DB.

Sure, it has crazy feats, scaling chains, and techniques, however, the contents contained within these things are actually VERY lackluster in comparison to OPM.

For example, Ultra Instinct, something that takes martial arts gods apparently millions of years to learn and master, is just generic instinctive reaction and power amp.

Compare this to Garou, who had already learned and efficiently utilized instinctive reactions as a HUMAN, before evolving many many times over.

If anything, the fact that it took people so long to learn instinctive reactions in DB is an anti-skill feat. And the fact that nobody but a select few characters have it makes the scaling chains almost irrelevant here, because those characters can't even replicate something Garou could do when he was FAR less skilled than he is now.
 
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Phoenks said:
Okay so, I've talked to some other DB fans and I think Goku is actually a lot less skilled than Garou lol. And when I say a lot less skilled, I mean that Garou would look at him one time and immediately go on to skill stomp him.

I'll explain my reasoning as to why at some point, but basically it comes to down to how skill is actually applied in DB.

Sure, it has crazy feats, scaling chains, and techniques, however, the contents contained within these things are actually VERY lackluster in comparison to OPM.

For example, Ultra Instinct, something that takes martial arts gods apparently millions of years to learn and master, is just generic instinctive reaction and power amp.

Compare this to Garou, who had already learned and efficiently utilized instinctive reactions as a HUMAN, before evolving many many times over.

If anything, the fact that it took people so long to learn instinctive reactions in DB is an anti-skill feat. And the fact that nobody but a select few characters have it makes the scaling chains almost irrelevant here, because those characters can't even replicate something Garou could do when he was FAR less skilled than he is now.
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This argument was made here before. Just because garou is more skilled in one aspect of skill such as instinctive reaction, does not mean he is overall more skilled than Goku.
This is because there is no objective metric for skill where when you vary from verse to verse, you will find characters that are much more skilled in aspects while lacking other aspects that less skilled characters in other verses excel in.
For example, Goku absolutely experience curbs stomps the shit out of garou. Is this enough to conclude that Goku would shit on garou in terms of skill? No, we need to compare every aspect and every skill feat to make that conclusion.

Now this point is moot anyway because ultra instinct is a technique that is significantly harder to learn in dragon ball than in one punch man. But not just that, but Goku's ultra instinct is even more powerful than garou's application of instinctive reaction since it's far above baseline.
Baseline instinctive reaction = Beerus' shit UI < base Goku's UI < SSJ < SSJ2 < SSJ3 < SSG < SSB < TOP UI sign < Mastered Ultra Instinct < moro arc UI < Granolah arc UI.
And it's feats are powerful enough to make base Goku able to dodge attacks that SSJ vegeta had trouble with which is a 50x gap in speed.
Or do crazy shit like keep up with granolah who is much stronger and faster than him with the capability of one shotting him with a single attack by doing micro movements to prevent himself from getting hit. This would surpass garou fighting while asleep.
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Now this point is moot anyway because ultra instinct is a technique that is significantly harder to learn in dragon ball than in one punch man.
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Actually, your point is moot here. Instinctive Reaction is Instinctive Reaction. If it's harder to learn in Dragon Ball, all that says is that they aren't nearly as intelligent or skilled as the people in OPM are. Taking millions of years to learn something considered basic in another verse is the biggest anti-feat you could give lmao.

And what do you mean "above baseline," if you just mean reacting to attacks faster than you, then Garou's is also above baseline...
 
Phoenks said:
Actually, your point is moot here. Instinctive Reaction is Instinctive Reaction. If it's harder to learn in Dragon Ball, all that says is that they aren't nearly as intelligent or skilled as the people in OPM are. Taking millions of years to learn something considered basic in another verse is the biggest anti-feat you could give lmao.

And what do you mean "above baseline," if you just mean reacting to attacks faster than you, then Garou's is also above baseline...
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It really isn't. Instinctive reaction is not an objective way to measure overall fighting skill.
You're are arguing that garou > character in skill because garou learned instinctive reaction when the other didn't, and that somehow makes garou greater in all other applications in skill. This is clearly fallacious. If that same character copies a technique more complex or more difficult to learn than anything garou has copied, would you say that they are both more intelligent and less intelligent than each other? This is like saying one character is greater in all Statistics (ap, speed durability) just because they have higher lifting strength, so they're stronger.

The way to properly treat this is to index each verse separately. So dragon ball has techniques at the same level of complexity if not more difficult to learn than what opm has, then UI is even more impressive so it's a more impressive skill feat to learn it than in one punch man. Else that would mean Goku's ultra instinct is qualitatively better than garou's because of scaling but you can't scale verses to each other like that so it's simply considered baseline IR.

Above baseline as in more accurate (it depends on superiority not application). To my knowledge, garou is the only one who has instinctive reaction and it's never shown to improve, but even if it was above baseline, then Goku is 10 stages above that and has better application.
 
instinctive reaction is not an objective way to measure overall fighting skill.
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Dude, I'm only focusing on one section of skill for now. Maybe go back and read my comment? I'll get to the others later. Lol. But let's focus on this one for now.

Focusing purely on Instinctive Reactions right now. I'm saying the application of the skill is the same, and there's not a big difference between them. In fact, if anything, Garou's Instinctive Reaction is actually superior, and it took him less time to learn it.

Garou's IR allows him to fight completely unconscious, asleep, and against other characters who have it (Bang and Bomb). And it actually does improve over the series.
 
Phoenks said:
Dude, I'm only focusing on one section of skill for now. Maybe go back and read my comment? I'll get to the others later. Lol. But let's focus on this one for now.

Focusing purely on Instinctive Reactions right now. I'm saying the application of the skill is the same, and there's not a big difference between them. In fact, if anything, Garou's Instinctive Reaction is actually superior, and it took him less time to learn it.

Garou's IR allows him to fight completely unconscious, asleep, and against other characters who have it (Bang and Bomb). And it actually does improve over the series.
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Well Goku unconciously learned ultra instinct. Goku has also fought characters who have instinctive reaction, such as MUI moro and Goku's blatantly stated to have superior UI to him. And not only is constantly improving as it's active, but it has a massive scaling chain above garou and makes Goku get passively stronger as he fights.
Also sorry but can you give me scans for garou's IR improving?
 
Phoenks said:
Actually, your point is moot here. Instinctive Reaction is Instinctive Reaction. If it's harder to learn in Dragon Ball, all that says is that they aren't nearly as intelligent or skilled as the people in OPM are. Taking millions of years to learn something considered basic in another verse is the biggest anti-feat you could give lmao.

And what do you mean "above baseline," if you just mean reacting to attacks faster than you, then Garou's is also above baseline...
Click to expand...
If NEP type 2 chains exist, instinctive reaction chains also exists.
 
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