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Giving Fiamma every supernatural power mentioned in the bible (Input from non-to aru people searched for)

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Personally I don't see the issue at all. Theres nothing saying that gabriel isnt, or cannot be a archangel and the other two major faiths do say so. Does that really undermine every single piece of evidence that they are the same? I dont think so. Not even close. I don't even follow this verse and I see that much.
 
btw, I have a question about Fiamma's powers: does his attacks affect the target's soul? I saw a person saying that he was able to attack an angel, but I do not remember where and if it happened.
 
XDragnoir said:
btw, I have a question about Fiamma's powers: does his attacks affect the target's soul? I saw a person saying that he was able to attack an angel, but I do not remember where and if it happened.
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@XDragnoir That's most likely refering to destroying angels, who have a telesma bodies and essences, when the Right was wielded by Michael
 
If it is outright stated that Fiamma is able to perform all miracles in the Bible, then it's fine to give him the ability to do so; according to his denomination, which seems to be Roman Catholic.

However, I think we should only scale from the miracles that are explicitly considered to be such in the Bible, not every single supernatural feat.
 
Theres really nothing else that needs addressing, so can I request this to be closed now. the profile currently lists it as:

Able to use any symbolism magic relating to the right hand from the bible in base, and recreate miracles and legends in Christianity as The One Above God
 
well if we colse it the tier need to change as he can change phase 1time like a MG, althought it's not "real" fire power it's still there
 
His phase change is more of a passive effect. He became so holy that the world changed and started to bring heaven o our world, iirc.
 
yes but 1 of the Christian miracle is the creation of the universe, that's what im talking about which is at least 1 phase change
 
Had not it already been said that Christianity begins in the New Testament? That is, that the creation of the universe was not something Fiamma would have?

And comparing the phase change of Fiamma to that of an MG does not even come close to being right, Fiamma has only a small manipulation of the phase of heaven, while the MGs have manipulation of all phases and dimensions.
 
yes thats why i said 1 phase so maybe universe lvl ?

althought obv MG have shown much more RW powers, let's not forget that fiamma was basically trying to do what aliester is doing now, and in the first place if he "just" needed MG lvl of power he had the index controller and could basically become one(I'm not saying he should have the power of a MG), but he didn't cause that's not his objective

and let's not forget he already had some universe lvl RW power in his base form when he fixed the 4 fundamental elements
 
Wrong Aeon he can't create the universe, his phase manip isn't AP applicable. Key is based on WW3 LPSaD not LPSaD in general.
 
Well he does change the phases (not in a destructive matter) when he gives physical form to his third arm, and Aeon =/= power, MG and fiamma are from the same Aeon, he just failed cause his system does not allow what he wanted as it would require the elimination of the same system he is gaining power from (same reason why MG can't just eliminate the "sparks"), in the first place this is even said in one of the quotes "It was not an issue of the type or amount of power. It was nothing more than an issue of how you used it,"


and I do understand what u mean but if we are supposed to give him every miracle from the bible the creation of the "world" is there too and the end too if it not wrong
 
Yes which could be done if formatted correctly. The full quote explains this. The phase of Christianity doesn't have superemcy over the universe in this Aeon so that legend can't be recreated. We discussed this earlier in the thread. His phase manip is limited and unrelated to his tier.
 
not to mention that Fiamma will not have all the miracles of the bible, he will have all the miracles of Christianity (ie all that happened after the birth of Jesus Christ, I think) and all the symbolism of the right hand of the bible, Unless God created the universe with his right hand, Fiamma can not do that.
 
then what would be his limit ?

btw be aware that he didn't want to recreate the universe, he just wanted to save the current one, he was aware of the "spark" happening he just did not fully know the cause (like birdway), so he just thought that basing it all on the christian system would fix the problem as he truly believed in it, as i said above if he thought becoming a MG would fix the problem he would have used that as he had Index
 
XDragnoir said:
not to mention that Fiamma will not have all the miracles of the bible, he will have all the miracles of Christianity (ie all that happened after the birth of Jesus Christ, I think) and all the symbolism of the right hand of the bible, Unless God created the universe with his right hand, Fiamma can not do that.
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that's so and so, he only delve in the miracle of the right hand in his base form, as LPSAD he can use ALL miracle, and no, it's not what happened after the birth of Christ as he uses the power of Michael trowing down Lucifer that happened wwwaaaayyy earlier
 
@Malox Yea we know. What is being added is the miracles related to the right hand for base. miracles in Christianity for lpsad which all fall into his tier except the one he can't recreate during WW3.

@XDragnoir The quote references the legend of Christianity in general rather than just the religion iirc.
 
Okay, I do not understand much of religion, so if you're saying it. I just wanted to comment that Fiamma being able to defeat Lucifer is another of the symbolisms of the right hand, not one of the miracles of LPSAD.
 
Promestein said:
I think the most we can concretely give him are the miracles explicitly mentioned here, in these quotes.
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This.

Also, even solely sticking to the Bible and not the hundreds of denominations, variations and other religious books, there are numerous changes that happened throughout the millennia, additions and removals.

And even then, you have the very valid argument that Christianity only begins with the New Testatement, as before it is just Judaism. Christianity doesn't exist until Jesus Christ shows up. Then there's the discussion of what is and what isn't a Miracle. Acts performed by God himself aren't considered Miracles, but just God exerting His will. Meanwhile acts performed by mortals with the blessing of God are Miracles, as they are men performing acts which should be impossible to the non-divine.

Regardless, I very much agree with DontTalk and LazyHunter that this is far too controversial and uncertain to be aplied so liberally here, and that only the miracles he demonstrates and is directly stated to be able to perform in the quotes should be included in the profile.

This is no different than trying to scale fictional-versions of mythological characters from the original myths simply because they share themes and ideas and the same stories. Hell, even Nasuverse has cases of characters whose descriptions and narrations make reference to myths directly or point you to myth texts.

Also stuff from the Revelation wouldn't count either as those aren't miracles being performed, but merely a highly allegorical prophecy of what's to come.
 
Speaking of "open-to-interpretation", have you people even considering how many hundreds of translations of the Bible there are in English alone, and restricting to Roman Catholic alone too?

Never mind that Kamachi isn't even American but Japanese so the matter of Bible translation and interpretation gets even more muddy.

And in regards to interpretation, there's practically no consensus among theologians and religious scholars in regards to most of the Bible. Single verses have been interpreted, analysed, and reinterpreted for literal millennia now. What things are literal, what is allegorical, what something means, etc.

And this is assuming ToAru is a universe with a history and religious lore identical to our own, which it isn't, it's just similar. Even the Bible proper is shown to not be 100% accurate as things which are non-canonical to both Christianity and Judaism are shown to be true, nevermind dozens of other mythologies and magic and butchered Aleister Crowley stuff being in it as well.

What "All Miracles of Christianity" constitute in ToAru is honestly up for debate as it is very likely that the Christ in the verse is different from the Christ in real life Roman Catholicism.

This is a series where Odin is a half-naked little girl. That should give you pause.
 
Has to be a no from me. Not only is it a stretch to say that their Bible should be treated as identical to our Bible, but the line of what does and doesn't qualify and the limit of such a power is far too open to interpretation and debate.

If you accepted that you'd have an argument for Low 2-C, since "nothing was made without The Word" and its accepted that Jesus is meant to be "The Word". What consistutes a "miracle" is also open to interpretation, since you could treat it as any normally impossible event, an occurance caused by mortals that is normally impossible for mortals, or even just something implausible or very unlikely to occur.

Also when it comes to the "right hand", defining what is and isn't done with a mostly symbolic wording makes this even murkier. I just don't think this can be practically used.
 
just out of curiosity, what powers would be added if we were just by what was referenced? BFR and Sealing in Hell, healing illnesses and reviving people, a limited manipulation of sacred water, and I can not remember any more, then just add it and close it, I doubt anyone will still want to argue that Fiamma should have all the miracles , etc. I at least do not intend to continue, btw, non-physical interaction should also be added, he can interact with angels, and angels are non-corporeal.
 
Assalt, Prom and Matthew sound more reasonable about this to me. Also to my knowledge LazyHunter and DontTalk have always handled the feats and revisions for this verse quite well so I'm more inclined to side with their views on this.

When it comes to vague or "all-encompassing" statements such as these, it's always best to take only the ones properly listed and directly referred to during the story in case.
 
@XDragnoir

If you expand "miracles" to literally anything supernatural mentioned in the Bible you'd get existence erasure. It's implied that God has the ability to completely destroy someone's body and soul.

To those wondering no, God didn't do this, but it implied that he can since the people were commanded to not fear any mortal, who can only destroy the body, but rather fear God, who can destroy both the body and soul.
 
Also, if people think this is unfair treatment towards To Aru, it isn't. This is exactly what we already do to every single Verse which brings up Plato's Theory of Forms to its characters and beings. We don't accept that as equivalent to the real life concept, and neither do we have any reason to do it here. The skepticism shown here is merely the skepticism shown towards every single properly evaluated verse.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
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"Also, even solely sticking to the Bible and not the hundreds of denominations, variations and other religious books, there are numerous changes that happened throughout the millennia, additions and removals." This is referring to knowledge on the bible in modern Roman Catholcism. "And even then, you have the very valid argument that Christianity only begins with the New Testatement, as before it is just Judaism. " The miracles referenced come from both OT and NT. It's referring to the legend of Christanity not the religion and that wouldn't make sense for someone who controls the phase. "Acts performed by God himself aren't considered Miracles" Correct we already addressed this, miracle has an inverse meaning. "this is far too controversial and uncertain to be aplied so liberally here" This is very straight foward, the ability recreates all the miracles the ones stated are just a run on list. Kamachi obviously isnt gonna list them all in story narration. "scale fictional-versions of mythological characters from the original myths simply because they share themes and ideas and the same stories." This is obviously different because the bible is considered a religious text in verse and our history is the same as real life history up to a certain specific point. For example the Mythos books writen by lovecraft in verse are considered fictional and have grimoire counterparts so scaling from that would be incorrect. "Revelation wouldn't count either as those aren't miracles being performed" No one raised this point.

Matthew Schroeder said:
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"have you people even considering how many hundreds of translations of the Bible there are". Yes bibles are translated into different languages. Anyways any of the bibles that dont use Anglican theory. The translated version of the LVB ,which is the official text used in the Vatican, would be correct. "And in regards to interpretation, there's practically no consensus among theologians and religious scholars in regards to most of the Bible." ok? consensus isn't really the issue here. "And this is assuming ToAru is a universe with a history and religious lore identical to our own, which it isn't, it's just similar. Even the Bible proper is shown to not be 100% accurate as things which are non-canonical to both Christianity and Judaism are shown to be true, nevermind dozens of other mythologies and magic" History is identical up till a certain point. Bible proper? All versions and denominations exist in verse. Due to religious phases everything is equally true. We are only focusing on RC because that is the denomination. You would have to give specific examples. "and butchered Aleister Crowley stuff being in it as well. lol "Christ in the verse is different from the Christ in real life Roman Catholicism." "real-life" Christ isnt really the issue here via Idol Theory. It's specifically the miracles of the Son of God from the denomination. RC is used because of that. Controling the Christian phase would allow him to use all Christian phenomina regardless of sect. As stated in this thread, we are using RC because that is what he has confirmed knowledge on. "This is a series where Odin is a half-naked little girl. That should give you pause." Lol. Othinus took on many apperences this is just how she looks now. The form she took previously are the ones depicted in mythology.
 
You failed to raise any new point. It doesn't matter that you wish to specify to Roman Catholic because the character is. It doesn't matter that you want to narrow it to just to New Testament and go by an arbitrary definition of Miracles. It doesn't matter that "history is the same" when it most assuredly isn't fully identical. It doesn't matter that the fictional religion is arguably the same.

At the end of the day, these are just a series of assumptions stacked atop new assumptions, without ever actually proving anything. You cannot actually demonstrate that the fictitious Bible and Christianity of a verse is functionally identical to our own world's, it's about as demonstrably provable as Russel's Teapot. Which is to say not at all.

Christianity in real life is 100% important to the discussion since it is entirely what the argument is centered on, and it completely ignores all the varying interpretations and denominations which are being ignored in favor of an interpretation that you invented and which is just as uncertain and valid as any other.

It is ridiculous that we give Fiamma "All Miracles of Christianity" based on such a superlative statement, as what even constitutes a Miracle to begin with is up to interpretation, and that's just the tip of the iceberg as far as problems go. You have to arbitrarily narrow it down so much it becomes pointless.

Also the argument with Lovecraft is factually incorrect as there are Verses where Lovecraft's books are real and the creatures he describes are likewise real, with the books being written based on visions and dream-journeys.

Nevermind stuff like the Rick Riordan Verse, which has functionally identical versions of mythology and even supplementary books depicting various myths in incredibly faithful details, and mythological texts certainly exist as books. Hell, in Magnus Chase Snorri Sturluson, writer of the Prose Edda, is an actual character, and it's revealed that he wrote the Edda because he personally met the Norse Gods. Do we use the Prose Edda for Magnus Chase profiles? No.

What Kamachi would or wouldn't do doesn't matter. The intent is clear but the application is so vague as to lose all meaning. We are only left with what's objective in the text proper, which is what should be in the profile.

The rest is silence.
 
Scaling Fiamma to the Bible for the reasons outlined is like scaling Gan to every fictional story because it's stated that "every author/writer/songwriter/creator is merely a prophet of Gan".

The latter has far more actual justification than this does, and we're still not doing it.

All I'm going to say on this subject. I'm opposed to this in the extreme.
 
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