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Giving Fiamma every supernatural power mentioned in the bible (Input from non-to aru people searched for)

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Also using phases like arguments is very much like using "Observation" as an argument for Shin Megami Tensei, to say that the gods in it are identical to those of real life religions, as all myths are true with gods being born from Observation of humans.

Which is obviously not something that can, or ever will be used to argue that we should give certain gods all abilities and feats of real mythology, or else we'd have 1-A SMT. Only the myths that are referenced are used.
 
Wokistan said:
Wokistan said:
I'd be more willing to go for what's listed in verse, as opposed to using irl Christianity. If there's a specific Bible denomination specified in verse that's another thing, but idk if I'm totally sold on using that.
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I also commented, and said this.
Haven't really been in this thread for a while though. I should read the recent developments.
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I feel this is a pretty reasonable approach. Go with the miracles listed / stated / shown.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
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"It doesn't matter that you want to narrow it to just to New Testament and go by an arbitrary definition of Miracles." I didnt raise this point. "It doesn't matter that the fictional religion is arguably the same." So which part matters? Do you have an example showing the referenced bible events aren't the same? "You cannot actually demonstrate that the fictitious Bible and Christianity of a verse is functionally identical to our own world's" Hm? It has all the characteristics synonymous with modern Christianity in addition to the same relevant history. Do you have an examples that prove the bible or refernced events are different? "Christianity in real life is 100% important to the discussion since it is entirely what the argument is centered on, and it completely ignores all the varying interpretations and denominations which are being ignored in favor of an interpretation that you invented and which is just as uncertain and valid as any other." The argument is centered on bible text and history accuracy not the different interpretations and denominations. Invented interp as in talking about the RC denomination? Thats not my interpretation. Thats literally what it is in verse. "Miracle to begin with is up to interpretation" We addressed this, what a christian miracle is is stated in verse as a supernatural event observed by people which couldn't have been produced by natural means. "and that's just the tip of the iceberg as far as problems go" What other problems post em. "Also the argument with Lovecraft is factually incorrect as there are Verses where Lovecraft's books are real and the creatures he describes are likewise real, with the books being written based on visions and dream-journeys." As in the books are written by lovecraft in verse are are real too? And does verse support the entire lovecraft cosmology and history for the scaling to be accurate? "Nevermind stuff like the Rick Riordan Verse, ..etc" You're missing the point here. What the thread is about is reproducing the miracles from the legends in the text. Whether the actually beings, characters and lore actually exist is not isn't the issue. As long as the the in-verse non fictional bible texts are the same as the real life equalivalent and the denomination we are referncing has similair history, that is what matters."What Kamachi would or wouldn't do doesn't matter. The intent is clear but the application is so vague as to lose all meaning. We are only left with what's objective in the text proper, which is what should be in the profile." Ok so you agree the intent is clear. Whats vague though? It clearly says recreate the miracles in christinaity. A phase which is shaped by all of the legends of christanity. RC is used bcause that what he has confirmed knowledge on which is pretty clear cut.

MrKingOfNegativity said:
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This isnt the same. In Gan's case you are setting a fictional character as real-life people who are authors for every fiction which doesn't make sense. In Fiamma's case he is reproducing what is already referenced in a book in verse which has a real life equvialent.

Matthew Schroeder said:
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"Also using phases like arguments is very much like using "Observation" as an argument for Shin Megami Tensei, to say that the gods in it are identical to those of real life religions, as all myths are true with gods being born from Observation of humans. Which is obviously not something that can, or ever will be used to argue that we should give certain gods all abilities and feats of real mythology, or else we'd have 1-A SMT. Only the myths that are referenced are used." These are two different things. The phase is only being used to explain the filter supporting all sects of christianity is possible via Idol Theory. Its not literally about people creating actual beings based on what they believe. Imitation magic doesnt care if the particualr is real or not. The power is reproduction of known legends, why would this only be limited to what is stated in this case when the intent is different? This would be like saying he can only use the grimoires he has utilized when he posses 103,000.
 
Not at all sure what your point is at this point, this is basically a repeat of the previous argument. Just because he is stated to be able to perform the Miracles of Christianity, doesn't mean we'll actually list all powers he's not demonstrated in the profile, just like we do with any other verse. Similarly, this is the equivalent of scaling to other series, which is likewise not allowed.

The examples regarding Lovecraft, Dark Tower, and Mythologies are all perfectly valid. They show that cross-series scaling isn't allowed even when it is far more evident than a handful of lines throughout many volumes of novels.

Real life Christianity is inherently important to the issue at hand because there is no consensus on what a Miracle even is, despite you acting like there is by outright fabricating one in the thread. And in regards to the verse differing from the Bible, the very fact that it uses angels that aren't in the Bible such as Uriel, or Aleister Crowley Creations such as Aiwass, shows it's not accurate. Let alone other gods existing which completely contradicts Christianity. So the Bible being true in the verse is questionable at best if not outright disproven.

And phases wouldn't make every Christian sect true. They all believe in most the same details and the same God. There wouldn't be thousands of variations of God and Jesus out thre based on a systm meant to explain different faiths entirely. And if there are, that makes the issue even worst.

And you cannot ignore theological arguments around real Christianity merely by going "But this is not about that, this is about the actual text!" when the To Aru text takes one to this very debate. There is no consensus on what Miracles are and what can or cannot be a Miracle, and even the meaning, translation and right interpretation of them.

I am sorry, but this cannot be in a profile.

And yes, if he has 103,000 Grimoires but has only utilized a handful, than that's also a completely moot point. Only the quantifiable handful are worth bringing up as debate arguments and you can't use the theoretical capabilities of the rest as argument. This is getting back to Medaka Box threads.

Similarly, they can state that he has "all Miracles of Christianity" all they want, but only the ones he's shown to mimick are valid. This is just how things are.
 
Also, one more thing:

"In Gan's case you are setting a fictional character as real-life people who are authors for every fiction which doesn't make sense"

This is wrong. Per a Type IV Multiverse it is perfectly reasonable that the multiverse would contain identical copies of most every fiction ever written by humanity. Hell, infinite perfect copies of each fiction. Dark Tower simply addresses that such an ultimate ensemble would include all stories, and makes the metatextual idea a major point of the story. Even the Real World in Dark Tower is fictional, just a perfect replica as well.

Gan's case is far more reasonable and valid than Fiamma's. And yet it's not accepted.
 
Thinking of it like this helps make it a lot more simple.

Treat the Bible as a verse we don't allow on the site for very, very obvious reasons.

Now, while it is mentioned in this verse extensively much like any Lovecraft knock-off mentions the Outer Gods, we don't apply powers or statements found in Lovecraft's works to said knock-offs unless they have quotes in the story that comes to the exact same justifications for the exact same powers.

It's why when someone says "Platonic Concept" we don't go "Egads, that's a 1-A!" despite modern platonic theory placing his ideals at what we would consider 1-A.

Strongly agree with Matt.
 
"perform the Miracles of Christianity, doesn't mean we'll actually list all powers he's not demonstrated in the profile" If you check the earlier posts, no ones raised making a long list of all of these powers on the profile. What was orginally proposed was the ones stated followed by etc to indicate further items like in the text for base and similair for lpsad followed by and any other in Christianity. "The examples regarding Lovecraft, Dark Tower, and Mythologies are all perfectly valid. They show that cross-series scaling isn't allowed even when it is far more evident than a handful of lines throughout many volumes of novels." You didn't give a valid example akin to the situation with this verse. As in supports the cosmology, similair history, relevant non fictional text in verse..etc "Real life Christianity is inherently important to the issue at hand because there is no consensus on what a Miracle even is, despite you acting like there is by outright fabricating one in the thread" Another point I didnt raise. I said there is an in-verse defintion for what a christian miracle is. "And in regards to the verse differing from the Bible, the very fact that it uses angels that aren't in the Bible such as Uriel, or Aleister Crowley Creations such as Aiwass, shows it's not accurate. Let alone other gods existing which completely contradicts Christianity. So the Bible being true in the verse is questionable at best if not outright disproven" Uriel comes from a different religious text as stated in verse. Aiwass isn't a christian angel... What do the other god's from other relgions people practice have to do with Christianity?"And phases wouldn't make every Christian sect true. They all believe in most the same details and the same God. There wouldn't be thousands of variations of God and Jesus out thre based on a systm meant to explain different faiths entirely. And if there are, that makes the issue even worst. " I don't think you have a good understanding of what a phase is as it is related to this arguement. But to keep it brief the phase encomapses everything that is synoynoums with the christian monothestic relgion. Which is why multiple denomations can utilize idol theory without one of them being wrong. There aren't variations or different constructs to fit all of these varitations, the filter holds the collective accounts of the legend. "And you cannot ignore theological arguments around real Christianity merely by going "But this is not about that, this is about the actual text!" when the To Aru text takes one to this very debate. There is no consensus on what Miracles are and what can or cannot be a Miracle, and even the meaning, translation and right interpretation of them." Miracles are clasiffied in verse you can use those guildines to interpret what and what isn't one. Rather than ponder on real life theological arguments. Remember this is in prespective of the inverse character. "And yes, if he has 103,000 Grimoires but has only utilized a handful, than that's also a completely moot point. Only the quantifiable handful are worth bringing up as debate arguments and you can't use the theoretical capabilities of the rest as argument. This is getting back to Medaka Box threads." My point is if it wasnt clear, he has 103,000 grimoires, he has used some of them and a handful of other charcters have used some of them. Would he only have access to the ones he's used only despite having all of them? This is wrong. Per a Type IV Multiverse...etc Gan case isnt accepted because it heavily implies meta author-fiction interaction.

"we don't apply powers or statements found in Lovecraft's works to said knock-offs unless they have quotes in the story that comes to the exact same justifications for the exact same powers." If this is a site rule then alright. I'll agree with whats stated in this case.
 
Zensum said:
If this is a site rule then alright. I'll agree with whats stated in this case.
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Crossovers

"Onesided crossovers officially take place within one continuity, but not the other. Given that some characters may be parodies of their original counterparts, they could potentially get a separate profile scaling from the other verse based on their importance to the story.

One example is the version of Dante in Shin Megami Tensei, who is based on his Devil May Cry counterpart, with the same name and appearance, but a slightly altered story to fit in more with the Shin Megami Tensei verse. However, the character in question may not be used to scale to the Devil May Cry cast.

Profiles for crossovers not canon to the main story of one or more of the franchises involved may only be created according to the regulations defined in the Alternative Canon and Composite Profiles page."
 
I can sense the bias against To Aru here. Miracles have a solid definition in the verse, which is given since the Old Testament novels (The movie takes place between volume 13 and 14, being referenced multiple times in the story + actual statements of it being canon). As Zem already summed up, Phases aren't the things you say that they are. The whole history of Christianity in-verse is equal to ours with just a few differences in the events that happened in the 20th century.
 
If it's as ingrained as you claim it is, simply give quotes or scans that evidence the powers and we'll add them as they are.

Going further than that is extrapolation of stuff from what is, for the sake of argument, another verse, which is against the rules.

We have a profile for the abstract representation of Jesus Christ in a number of verses. You don't see me pulling out the New Testament to pile on more powers.

The way we treat crossovers here, you'd have to prove To Aru is canon to Christianity and even then we have strict policies on religious works.
 
Well, it seems like the staff support Matthew's interpretation, which makes sense to me as well, so we should probably go with that approach.
 
Don't give all the credit for me, the original idea is from DontTalk, and supported by LazyHunter and Promestein. The former two being the most knowledgeable and competent To Aru supporters on the site.
 
Yes, but I only read the new posts this time.
 
If certain things are referred to as "miracles" in universe and are specified, then I have no problem with using them.

I have more of an issue just taking directly from a random version of the Bible or a specific denomination of Christianity, and we're moving way too far into guesswork, at that point.

If Fiamma or the verse as a whole have certain specified miracles, a list of those would be useful.
 
Azzy pretty much nailed it just like the Romans. The problem with the assertion is that it is far too speculative and involves too much guesswork, and so we should really only list the specified Miracles instead.
 
Matthew u said to use what it stated, and it's stated that he can recreate all legend of Christianity, and the argument about the bible losing meaning in translation is useless as it was changed many times before they started mass-producing, in the first place thinking that it was translated from English to Japanese is a bit stupid considering it most of what we read is based on Latin

u don't know much about phases (understandably so as u don't know the franchise), they are created when a new system (religion, system, belief) is created or the MG do it them self, they actually don't have to be real myths, there is lovecraft in universe but it's just miss interpretation of other myth so even thought it should not exist it exists cause people believe in it, phases exist in another "frequency" so u can think them like other universe super positioned in ours

and fiamma can recreate them BASED on the miracles they are not miracle them self or it would create contradictions
 
The point flew way over your head it seems. When we talk about ststements we mean the Miracles which are unambiguously listed and demonstrated, not the catch all vague term that requires scaling from real life religion.
 
but if thing are stated in universe how would that change ? for example index some miracle stated before fiamma was introduced, we should count those ?
 
Sigh... DT used a strawman. People were arguing for the miracles, not all supernatural powers in the bible.
 
Not just crossovers. Scaling to something not from the verse isn't allowed. This is no different from scaling Percy Jackson to Hesiod and Homer.
 
SchroKatze said:
Sigh... DT used a strawman. People were arguing for the miracles, not all supernatural powers in the bible.
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The reply to me bringing up that the exact distinction between miracle and other stuff is very opinion based:

Zensum said:
@DT
Miracles = any observed supernatural event.
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Do I have to say more?
 
The bible is in the universe, do u want the author to rewrite it inside ? There are some of the same verse too

the trick is that he can RECREATE them in reference of the miracles and legend using the HR, and more technically he can recreate them through his interpretation and the limit of the phase, an example of this is done in the fight of aleister and mathers they both used part of the event of the bible to create their magic through their own interpretations: summoning angels, creating fire of hell, etc (although HR is not magic)
 
The actual miracles seen in the series that SchroKatze brought up earlier are not miracles as Christianity or the Bible would consider them to be. They have nothing to do with God as far as we know, they are described by Aleister as a distortion in causality that changes the world in some way. Unlike other supernatural stuff, they are unaffected by Imagine Breaker.

The director of the movie refers to miracles being similar to acts of fate. This actually fits Allan Bennett, Aleister's friend and mentor, describing the sparks caused by phases (things that can doom people to certain death no matter what unless you have IB to exorcise them) in NT18 as failed miracles:

"This world contains as many phases as there are divine legends and religions. And the distance between each phase is not even. The rise and fall of civilizations and traditions affect the power balance in the real world. When you get down to it, fortune is the sparks that failed to become miracles. The spray produced by the contact and collision between phases has a shockingly thin but widespread influence on people. It affects coin tosses, the order at which dishes are served at a restaurant, meetings and partings, marriages and divorces…and even people's deaths. If you see no direct cause for your daughter's death, you should assume it is a spontaneous event caused by a gathering of the influence that so many people are unwittingly affected by."

So the actual miracles seen in the series are likely just phase shenanigans.
 
The title and my post on other thread say two different things DT.


Edit* Yea lazy is right Christian Miracle =/= Miracle in verse.
 
If what constitutes as a Miracle in Christianity and what constitutes as a Miracle in To Aru are different than people shouldn't even be wanting to cross-scale to begin with.
 
Fiamma reproduces Christian miracles. The Endymion miracles are another concept entirely if that's what you are asking.
 
OK a miracle is a something happening with a very low chance, the christian miracle are the legends of Christianity, we are referring to the later but as in universe miracles are their own thing people got confused (like : it's a miracle I won at the lottery, it's a miracle Jesus resurrected Lazarus, they are called the same but are not)
 
But you literally contradicted yourself by specifying that Miracles in To Aru =/= Miracles in Christianity, so you can't be both at the same time.

To say nothing of the obvious, extreme issues with using the Bible for a profile.
 
You misunderstood my post. "A miracle in-verse and a christian miracle in-verse are two different things."
 
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