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Giving Fiamma every supernatural power mentioned in the bible (Input from non-to aru people searched for)

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DontTalkDT

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Essentially we had a debate whether we should give Fiamma every miracle mentioned in the bible as ability. (apparently 150+ miracles, I only find this many though)

I want to keep this neutral so that people can get an uninfluenced opinion just from the quotes, soooo here they are:

-Base


"It's quite simple. What I possess is not the right arm itself but the power that should reside in the right arm. The right is used in most Christian rituals. Archangel Michael cut down the leader of the fallen angels with his right hand, the Son of God healed the sick with his right hand, the Bible was written with the right hand, and, well, there are many others. In other words, I can freely use a great number of Christian supernatural phenomena. You can figure out the rest. You're not so incompetent you can't do that."
~ Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 20, pg 93​



"That is correct. You could say my right hand has the power to create... miracles." Fiamma slowly moved through the rubble and continued. "The Son of God used his right hand to cure the illnesses of the sick and revive the deceased. It was the right hand which drew the cross and scattered the holy water used for the baptism of Christ. Furthermore, Archangel Michael—the right hand of God—has the distinction of being the greatest weapon in history, having cast down an uncountable number of fallen angels; even Lucifer was defeated when opposed by Archangel Michael. It is such an overwhelming power." The embodiment of the power of the right hand itself. The Holy Right. The red man who embodied fire continued his explanation to the man said to be the greatest in the Roman Catholic Church. "However, the Holy Right possesses such immeasurable power it is not something a mere human can control. The holy water an ordinary follower scatters or the cross they draw with their hand... they possess but a mere shadow of the power the legendary acts they are imitating possessed. Nothing more. Even if performed by a Saint or member of God's Right Seat, all are still of the human body. Understand this, Pope of the Roman Catholic Church: I am still, in the end, merely human. Such a troublesome existence." The man in possession of power far exceeding any "mere human" could yet look down and call himself human. Fiamma spoke to the pope with a bored tone, "To summarize, I possess the miracle of the right hand, but am unable to utilize its full potential. Even with such power, its feats are infantile when compared to their originators. Like recording a modern television program with a black and white television set."
~ Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 16, pg 194​



"The right hand which creates all miracles will destroy all evil. The power of the right sent the lord of devils into Hell and ensured there he would be bound for one-thousand years. If I can completely master the Holy Right... are you not curious as to what is inside it?" (Don't tell me...) If he was referring to what was in the report, the pope had read it before. The undefined, abnormal power a certain boy from Academy City possessed. The right hand that would destroy all miracles it touched. Imagine Breaker. "If it's me, it can be mastered." Fiamma laughed and moved his right hand horizontal to himself. As if responding to his command, the third arm splitting the air moved as well, mimicking Fiamma's actions. "Similar to Michael, it can be mastered. Preparations are needed, however."
~ Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 16, pg 195​
- Quotes on "using miracles and blessing related to the Son of God and the power to recreate any legend in Christianity" - LPSaD


His third arm was no longer incomplete and it no longer continued to shake awkwardly. The destruction he could carry out was different from the destruction that could be created by the 103,000 grimoires. He held the power to save the world. He held the power at the core of a legend. He was known as The One Above God.
~ Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22, pg 49​



In fact, the great swirl of light Fiamma had fired had split in two right in front of the boy and scattered to either side of him. Yet that attack had held such power that it could blow away a planet or recreate any of the legends in Christianity.
~ Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22, pg 50​



(All this could not have been carried out with clever tricks, so it seems luck and true skill were on my side. And if it did not have this level of output, it would not be known as the power that the Son of God should wield)
~ (Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22, pg 48)​



(I am trying to create various phenomena using the miracles and blessings of the Son of God to their fullest and this bastard doesn't care!? He has the power to just walk straight over all the vague things such as fortune and misfortune on his own!!)
~ Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22, pg 128​



Fiamma would cover the entire world in only the blessings that fit into the limits of what he could imagine. He saw no value in anything else. In a way, a world like that would be a utopia. The earth would be a planet where everything but blessings had been annihilated.
~ Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22, pg 16​



It was much greater than before. It was much stronger than what Fiamma had simulated it would be. He stood at the top of every living thing on that planet and he could wield that power to change the world in any way he saw fit. "Overly powerful divine punishment can easily destroy the unions between people. It is the same as the bonds between people being broken with the destruction of the Tower of Babel. And in response to the malice created in that, I can once more draw on a tremendous power."
~ Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22, pg 115​



"I could not do it. I should have had the power needed to save this world just like the Son of God. And yet I could not do it." "It was not an issue of the type or amount of power. It was nothing more than an issue of how you used it," Aleister Crowley said in disinterested voice.
~ Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22, pg 166​
For the record, personally I'm opposed to this.
 
Following this, gonna debate more about the subject later (But I completely agree with giving Fiamma all the miracles)
 
@Promestein, did you read through all the quotes? that was very fast

I'm going to go over them now and give my thoughts
 
I think changes have happened to bibles before? So uh yeah, siding with Donttalk here. It's better to be safe and use the mentionables only. There are a lot of stuff in the bible that might be taken too far or can come off as NLF.
 
I read fast.

COB has a good point.
 
after reading the quotes thoroughly, I don't see the issue with giving fiamma miracle creation. it seems to be explicitly Fiamma's power.

if it did not have this level of output, it would not be known as the power that the Son of God should wield)

I should have had the power needed to save this world just like the Son of God.

So the one above God is the power of the son of god.

If we say that Fiamma cannot create x miracle, then we are also saying Jesus can not.

then there is this

Yet that attack had held such power that it could blow away a planet or recreate any of the legends in Christianity.

and this

You could say my right hand has the power to create... miracles

why this guy hasn't been given miracle creation before now is strange. He explictly says he can create miracles a few times and the narration also says he can use any legends in christianity as he wields the power of the son of god

@COB: The bible has been rewritten many times but not to a falsifying degree. i'm sure they all say more or less the same thing in a different way
 
I think he should have the biblical powers, I don't see anything that goes against it except pure skepticism, which isn't inherently a bad thing but it's pretty much what his power is.
 
If we go just by the miracles in the quotes, we get:


>Stronger attacks against Demonic or Divine beings

>BFR and Sealing (Michael using the Holy Right to banish Lucifer to hell and seal him there)

>Healing

>Resurrection

>Some kind of Reality Warping and Non-Physical Interaction (Being able to annihilate even abstract things such as "evil". HR can destroy the evil within humanity (On the morale, not the evil people) without harming humanity itself)

>Mind Manip on a planetary scale (Can destroy the bounds between people)
 
@Zach, its not stated o be morale or mind manip, but literally annihilating "evil" with sheer power without harming humanity. Also, the non-physical interaction should be added regardless. HR can kill the non-corporeal form of Angels too.
 
I agree with him having all miracles. Reading this, I'm actually suprised that this wasn't implemented for him from the get go. We see several examples of both the charcater and the narration describing the ability to possess a biblical infulence in both power and mechanic (using the holy right). Even if we don't get a laundry list, it seems heavily implied. Whether we accept something in the bible to be a mircale or not is a different argument, but for now it makes complete sense for Fiamma to have acess to all "biblcal" abilities.
 
Thanks for making the thread

Like I said on the CRT I agree with giving him phenomena/miracles related to the right hand to an extent in base and recreate all the miracles/blessings of the son of god and Christianity in LPSaD. It's what the text implies indicating further items even if it doesn't give us a long tedious list
 
Magic in to aru is broken to a fundamental degree basically all is real warping but u have near nlf for everything cause u put the cost on the world
 
Giving Fiamma every miracle described in the Bible isn't really wrong if you consider the entire magic system of the verse. Magic is the replication of a concept, phenomena, idea, myth and etc, creating something that works under different laws and essentially different from science.

In Fiamma's case, his power comes from the fact that he has Michael's power within him, and uses this symbolism to get all of his powers. Holy Right is based on the "Salvation" and "Miracles". Also, the movie creator and plot gave us a good definition of what a Miracle is.

Aleister defined it as some kind of distortion in the law of causality that create events that are statically unlikely to occur. The director of the Endymion movie said in a interview that miracles aren't a part of science or magic but they are like fate itself is helping or being rejected. So... Some Miracles should be classified as limited fate/causality manipulation.
 
I'd be more willing to go for what's listed in verse, as opposed to using irl Christianity. If there's a specific Bible denomination specified in verse that's another thing, but idk if I'm totally sold on using that.
 
Well to aru timeline is almost same as ours but the big shift happened before WW1 so the Bible is the same, but guys remember that fiamma miracle =/= Endymion miracle , fiamma still use magic so they are more similar to sparks
 
Only go with the miracles he has shown to use in the LN and rate them based on their respective feats in-universe. Otherwise we'd be literally trying to gauge the power of feats in the real bible and that's bound to create controversy.
 
Giving him all the miracles isn't really wrong despite how OP it's gonna make him tbh. I mean you guys already know how the magic system works in index.
 
Theres enough quotes above mentioning him being able to perform all biblical miracles, so yeah.

Obviously the index bible = our bible. Not sure why ppl are noting this as a concern.

I even checked the acf wiki and they gave him all his miracle creation from the bible. Pretty sure we are the only ones who does not
 
To also input something: in my opinion scaling fiamma to the bible like this is no better than to make a verse lending characters from the cthulhu mythos 1-A for statements that they are exactly like the beings in Lovecraft's works.

Also pay attention to the fact that "creation of the universe" is listed as one of the miracles in the list.
 
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