Giving Fiamma every supernatural power mentioned in the bible (Input from non-to aru people searched for)

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Yeaaah if we're gonna get Universal Fiamma, something ain't right. Maybe at most they gave him a general thing, but are wary about claiming he can do certain impossible things.

 

[Zensum]

Difference between the two is in To Aru, they aren't just references, the bible text exists in verse and is undeniably the same as the real work. Also the lore and in verse history is identical to our real world's up to a certain point It should be noted they don't differ at all from the actual outside source that it is intended to be based on. In the Lovecraft instance, there are many verses that use character that are loosely based off several different Lovecraft horrors and often state they are from the work or carry the same name, but are either demonstratively weaker or the verse doesn't even support the Lovecraftian history or cosmology.

I don't think anyone argues for universe creation as a miracle. The verse definition is something with extremely low chances of happening or completely impossible by normal means. Even then, the laws of reality are no longer governed by christianity during WW3 so warping the universe/phase probably couldn't even be replicated.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

>I don't think anyone argues for universe creation as a miracle.

Searched up creation of the universe and miracle and the first thing that pops is exactly saying that. I think that if there are contradictions on existing miracles that could greatly inflate the level of power of a verse, it gets a bit suspicious or at least not really sensible.

Maybe it should just be done on a case by case basis on all of them? Or just put "Possibly"? I feel like that would solve a lot of problems.

 

[Zensum]

It will have to be case by case anyways for the profile so ya. But universe creation couldn't be a miracle by inverse standards because thats something God did directly.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Laaaast thing I wanna say is that the creation of the universe itself is pretty miraculous on the sheer level of stuff and conditions that had to happen buuut I don't wanna get into that debate so I'm just gonna say it's repeatedly enforced from what I'm looking at

 

[Antvasima]

Here are some of the less frequently asked staff members that you can select from to ask to give input when there are not enough knowledgeable members available:

SomebodyData

Darkanine

Reppuzan

Dragonmasterxyz

Celestial Pegasus

Monarch Laciel

Assaltwaffle

Saikou The Lewd King

Antoniofer

Gemmysaur

PaChi2

Ultima Reality

DarkDragonMedeus

AKM Sama

Dargoo Faust

MrKingOfNegativity

Wokistan

 

[Zensum]

Yup by scope, but it wouldn't be miraclous by verse definition if you are a being capable of doing it if you see what I mean.

 

[GilgaArcuied]

Christianity starts from New testament so the universe creation point is moot.

In fact, the great swirl of light Fiamma had fired had split in two right in front of the boy and scattered to either side of him. Yet that attack had held such power that it could blow away a planet or recreate any of the legends in Christianity.

 

[Paul_Frank]

I see no reason to not give him all the miracles it's quite clearly what his power is described as

Its also not really an nlf either because A. The limits are pretty well defined being limited to miracles preformed with the right hand and B. Again the power itself is literally described as being able to reproduce miracles

 

[Malox1696]

And it's not nlf simply cause we already know the limits and what overpowers it (MG,IT,aleister,etc)

 

[TriforcePower1]

To also input something: in my opinion scaling fiamma to the bible like this is no better than to make a verse lending characters from the cthulhu mythos 1-A for statements that they are exactly like the beings in Lovecraft's works.

Also pay attention to the fact that "creation of the universe" is listed as one of the miracles in the list.

^

 

[Demise0]

That post has already been addressed by a few people. These changes won't result in any tier change.

 

[XDragnoir]

Fiamma should have all the miracles of the bible, even if some are absurd, like creating the universe (yes, I know he will not have it for the above reasons) just remember that the verse of toaru have many impressive deeds done by various characters (Touma denied all changes to a phase, Accel reflects 3D objects moving in an 11D universe, etc.), and Fiamma is one of the strongest characters in the entire franchise, so it would be wrong for him to have a Low 2C feat (creating a universe), even if other characters can do things equally absurd?

 

[Malox1696]

well technically it depends cause the bible does not actually say the world, it just creates the solar system and the start we can see

 

[ZERO7772]

Difference between the two is in To Aru, they aren't just references, the bible text exists in verse and is undeniably the same as the real work. Also the lore and in verse history is identical to our real world's up to a certain point It should be noted they don't differ at all from the actual outside source that it is intended to be based on. In the Lovecraft instance, there are many verses that use character that are loosely based off several different Lovecraft horrors and often state they are from the work or carry the same name, but are either demonstratively weaker or the verse doesn't even support the Lovecraftian history or cosmology.

I don't think anyone argues for universe creation as a miracle. The verse definition is something with extremely low chances of happening or completely impossible by normal means. Even then, the laws of reality are no longer governed by christianity during WW3 so warping the universe/phase probably couldn't even be replicated.

Pretty much this.

I really don't see the issue with giving Fiamma all the mircles if it seems to be explicitly Fiamma's power and Toaru Bible seems to be 1/1 in real world.

 

[Myriadofmemes]

Yup, I agree completely with Prom that only what's been shown should be given. These are all vague and told from the standpoint of a character. And their bible simply can't be one to one considering what the setting of the franchise is.

 

[Malox1696]

well tecniaclly it's thee exact same as ours but magic interfered just before ww1

 

[Paul_Frank]

Yup, I agree completely with Prom that only what's been shown should be given. These are all vague and told from the standpoint of a character. And their bible simply can't be one to one considering what the setting of the franchise is.

Besides the fact it is explicitly the exact same bible

 

[GilgaArcuied]

These are all vague and told from the standpoint of a character.

Did you even read them?

 

[TIHYDDWBE]

Fiamma can clearly recreate all the miracles, at the least from new testament onwards and possibly old

People dont seem to understand what "vague" means.

He can recreate miracles. Doesn't describe which or how many. Vague


As opposed to:

He can recreate all miracles in christianity. States the amount he can make and even specific section of the bible = not vague. Do you people want the author to publish a entire list of the miracles in the bible? Nonsensical to say the least.

Its like saying Index has 103k grimoires in her head but theres no proof she can use them all. There is statements that she can but she hasn't shown them all so not enough proof

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

I also agree with fiamma being able to recreate legends and miracles from the christian bible and being able to produce the phenomenon related to the son of god

I dont see any point in being specific here.That's like saying u cant use the term "reactive evolution" as an ability anymore because it's too vague even though it's specifically stated that the point of the ability is being able to adapt to new threats...defeats the purpose of the entire narrative by mindlessly claiming NLF...

 

[TIHYDDWBE]

well people have given up disputing others and myself have already stated so how should we list them on the profile? I think simply Miracle creation from Symbolism of the right hand in the bible and Christianity as The One Above God in the power and abilities section is simple enough

 

[Zensum]

I agree we have given this thread a lot of time and it doesn't seem like any new discussion is to be had. Since votes favor adding the miracles I'd say we can revise and close.

 

[TIHYDDWBE]

Alright then seems good to me. will sort it out

if people have a issue with it im more than happy to debate them here. Though considering no one really seems to care I doubt that will happen.

 

[Antvasima]

Did anybody ever ask some staff members to give input here?

 

[TIHYDDWBE]

I don't think so but I don't think it will change anything. everything is already concluded. No one else really cares to further continue this thread

 

[Zensum]

Alright changed the wording.

@Ant yea staff members gave their input earlier.

 

[Antvasima]

DontTalkDT and Promestein are the only staff members that I noticed commenting here, and they seem to think that not all miracles should be added.

 

[TIHYDDWBE]

then that got debunked and no one responded for two weeks.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, you can ask several of the staff members that I recommended earlier if you wish.

 

[VoidGoji]

Staff input is not necessary here. People have agreed on adding all miracles and debunked the "ITS A NLF CLAIM!!!!!!" argument.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, our standard procedure is to have the staff evaluate those arguments.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

I agree with adding what's been shown.

 

[XDragnoir]

So far, it seems the only argument against is that all the passages that support the addition are supposedly vague and, for some reason, adding all the miracles of Christianity would be an NLF.

 

[TIHYDDWBE]

If you can even call it a argument.

 

[XDragnoir]

And if we are not going to give Fiamma all the miracles, I think it would be necessary to add a note on the Aureolus profile that he can only do what he has shown, since his power is much more vague and "NLF".

 

[TIHYDDWBE]

@Dragnoir Well the majority agree that he does and anyone who doesn't doesn't even try to counter points already made.

 

[Antvasima]

I would prefer if some staff members are asked to respond here.

 

[Malox1696]

Since i too was unsure about this I have made some research in the last volumes of ot, so will take the chance to clear up somethings about fiamma :1)HR defense it's automatic and does not need any input, while the attacks requires fiamma to be proactive, be swinging his arm or moving or at least thinking 2)the power used by The Strike That Ends Everything It Touches during the offense does not outright kill the opponent just knock them out or destroy the form of attack while other type that use strength to deal damage 3)the third hand for both attack and defense will choose the most optimal one be it laser, wind or moving itself 4) the proof of fiamma ignoring power and speed is in volume 22 where he in his rage intentionally use more speed and strength in his arm only to then realize the contradiction as his power were fading

for the miracle, I would give him the one related to the right hand in his tier 6 form and the other in his tier 5 form (LPSAD) that should be upgraded accordingly but still following the in universe rules (he does not really "create the universe" he just changes the phase)

 

[VoidGoji]

@Malox.


Your point 2 is actually incorrect. Fiamma just choses to not kill the targets but knock them out instead. HR will use its OHK by default, but Fiamma needs to actively command it to just KO