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Giving Fiamma every supernatural power mentioned in the bible (Input from non-to aru people searched for)

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Dargoo Faust said:
I'm amazed people don't see the issue with quoting the actual Bible to support powers on a profile.
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i don't see the problem if it exist in the universe, it's not different than someone using any other fictional book in universe, in the first place in the latest volume they did just that, 2 character (1 with the bible in hand) were citing the various legend of Christianity to create the wanted phenomena or counter each other after all this is all reality warping
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
But you literally contradicted yourself by specifying that Miracles in To Aru =/= Miracles in Christianity, so you can't be both at the same time.
To say nothing of the obvious, extreme issues with using the Bible for a profile.
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it's the meaning that it's different miracle (plural miracles)

Code: 
 1 An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin. quotations Ôû╝ (the Christianity miracle)
Code: 
 Many religious beliefs are based on miracles. An example of a miracle associated with Muhammad is the splitting of the moon.
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 2 A fortunate outcome that prevails despite overwhelming odds against it. (the miracle at exist in but is not by supernatural/god origin)
Code: 
in to aru those are 2 different things
 
There's also the obvious issue that magic in Toaru doesn't necessarily have to be 100% accurate to their own in-universe myths and legends, because Idol Theory gives them a surprising amount of leeway with symbolism. This is the same verse where there's a magician that turned a magic runic staff into a matchbox and matches, New Light fused together Thor's secondary magic items into a weird grabbing spear, Thor (actually Ollerus pretending to be him) can float in water using goat fur because of myth Thor's flying goats, Freyja's Brisingamen was used to create several monsters, Marian's Draupnir is a pair of large bracelets that can transform into a magic sword or spear and basically everything about Dáinsleif, including it being one of the signs of Ragnarok and a super-important magic sword.

We don't have any idea as to how close Fiamma's reproductions of Christian miracles and legends would be to the original, because he doesn't use this power before he loses LPSAD.
 
yes but considering that is based on RW and both narrator and fiamma both state it, just because he hasn't shown it doesn't mean he doesn't have it: ex. infinity stones are stated to warp reality but as they never showed them specifically transforming something in *x* they can't do it, it sounds a bit stupid

if the argument is that he hasn't shown that kind of RW, that's false as he fixed the 4 fundamental elements used by all magics and almost fused 2 phases
 
@Lazy Your example uses magic or si based off interpretations of the source to create various powers. However none of those exampes are meant to remake the source exactly as is. While Fiamma's power explicitly is reproduction of the phenomenia. There's a difference.
 
Zensum said:
@Lazy Your example uses magic or si based off interpretations of the source to create various powers. However none of those exampes are meant to remake the source exactly as is. While Fiamma's power explicitly is reproduction of the phenomenia. There's a difference.
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no zen fiamma HR to has interpretations, ex the strike ultimate strike is the interpretation of michael beating lucifer that was equal to god, so as the strike that can defeat god it does not use power.speed, etc

in the first place the HR is not sorely Christian related, it's just that fiamma used that system, as aleister later explained ( he had the right amount of power, the right type, as it was not magic, but he based it on the christian system that does not allow him to fix the "sparks", so he failed)
 
Malox1696 said:
no zen fiamma HR to has interpretations, ex the strike ultimate strike is the interpretation of michael beating lucifer that was equal to god, so as the strike that can defeat god it does not use power.speed, etc
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I didn't claim it wasn't and i'm talking about LPSaD who has the power to recreate.
 
Zensum said:
I didn't claim it wasn't and i'm talking about LPSaD who has the power to recreate.
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it works in the same way say he is always basing it in the same system if he wanted to create something without interpretation he would have to base it on the system of Horus and in doing that the series would have ended at OT 22

look carfully at the quote "I am trying to create various phenomena using the miracles and blessings of the Son of God to their fullest and this bastard doesn't care " he is using the miracle to create the phenomena he wants
 
Malox1696 said:
it works in the same way say he is always basing it in the same system if he wanted to create something without interpretatio he would have to base it on the system of Horus and in doing that the series would have ended at OT 22
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??? Idk what any of this has to do with what i'm talking about. But anyways i've made my point g2g.
 
Zen i'm agreeing that the legends written in the bible should be added, but that doesn't change the fact that he change reality interpreting the legends, for example if he were to copy the creation of the universe he would not create 1 by 1 everything but would just use the phases, and so on for everything
 
It should be restricted to miracles directly referenced in verse.

It's a similar case to Talion (Shadow of Mordor).

Shadow of Mordor takes place in Middle Earth, there are ton of references to Tolkien's works, and the game is literally made by the company that currently owns the rights to make games set in the LOTR universe.

Talion killed Sauron, a 4-A to 3-B, and he is 6-B. That's because we choose to scale from the 6-B feat that Sauron has that was directly referenced as opposed to all the feats that weren't referenced
 
yes but this is a bit different cause it's reality warping and he already has RW that affect the universe it just that he had it for like 1 minute before he lost it

that's why i made the infinity stones example
 
Kaltias said:
It should be restricted to miracles directly referenced in verse.

It's a similar case to Talion (Shadow of Mordor).

Shadow of Mordor takes place in Middle Earth, there are ton of references to Tolkien's works, and the game is literally made by the company that currently owns the rights to make games set in the LOTR universe.

Talion killed Sauron, a 4-A to 3-B, and he is 6-B. That's because we choose to scale from the 6-B feat that Sauron has that was directly referenced as opposed to all the feats that weren't referenced
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This sort of thing doesn't seem like it's a good practice for us to have. Scaling from the Bible is one thing - there are hundreds of denonimations, hundreds of interpretations regarding some versicles - but if, for all intents and purposes, Lord of the Rings's original series is fully canon to Shadow of Mordor, it should definitely be scalable.
 
That doesn't add legitimacy to scaling from the Bible though.

The point was, Talion has twice as many reasons to scale from the original LOTR than Fiamma does to scale from the Bible.

Neither does because they shouldn't scale from stuff not shown and/or referenced
 
Yeah the point is that people in favor of scaling from the Bible are in favor of something that is far less leigitimate than things which we already don't do
 
it is referenced but obviously the author can't just copy paste them all

and as i said it would not be direct scaling as it just the interpretation of said legend troughs the use of HR, as LH already said above magic in index works by idol theory, and so fiamma would recreate the phenomena not the legend it self (the result would be almost the same)
 
I explicitly said scaling from the Bible is one thing, and I have made it pretty clear in my original post. I'm addressing this [in my view] shady standard in general.

Not being referenced or shown is a bad reason not to scale. If it's explicitly canon then it's valid, no "buts" inbetween. For example, Dragon Ball Xenoverse is canon to Dragon Ball Heroes, yet not all feats performed by the god tiers in Xenoverse are mentioned in Heroes. Does that mean we should disregard scaling? Or how about franchises which have non-canon spin-offs that are meant to be set in the exact same universe as the original series?

Just because X is not canon to Y, doesn't mean Y is not canon to X.

I recognize this might come across as derail, but I'm addressing the standard a whole - there are other excellent, in-universe reasons given by people like DontTalk or LazyHunter that are far better than just using this perceived standard.
 
@Kep

Differences do exist however, and that's the point. Numenor being raised and sunk (the 6-B feat) definitely happened as it is referenced. So did the War of the Ring, etc.

But obviously the New Ring and Talion do not exist in LOTR, or the Black Captains, and other stuff.

So as we know that some stuff is different, we can't assume that the 4-A to 3-B feats, or Sauron scaling from them isn't part of the "different" stuff.

That's why we go with the feat directly reference
 
If there are explicit deviations that relate to the scaling and that contradict it, then that's a more valid reason. However, if the reasoning is just that there are new characters that didn't exist in the original, that's still questionable and defeats the point of a secondary, supplemental source to begin with. The Harry Potter movies also have new characters and new plot points compared to the books, yet we don't prevent them from receiving scaling if the scene in question isn't contradictory.

We never use unrelated things to put forth arguments either. For example, the Naruto databooks have several contradictions, yet they are still treated as case-by-case instead of just slapping a hard no on anything they say. The same thing with Word of God, we never use contradictory answers they gave regarding completely different subjects to disprove a new answer. Why should it be different here?

Occam's Razor is a thing; unless shown otherwise, we assume things to be equivalent to the canon they draw from. The Bible is exempt from this comparison for already-mentioned reasons in the thread.
 
>"Christianity is canon to To Aru"

As if the verse is unique in that. Christianity and references to it are found in plenty of verses, however I won't go to the Satan diambig page and start editing Revelations and New Testament quotes into them.

inb4 we need to give feats from Genesis to every God Profile.

Use what is shown in the verse, not a religious text that is subject to controversy and interpretation by millions of people today. There is an entire profession dedicated to studying religious texts, hell.
 
1 DT and LZ reasons are that he has not shown it, so they don't know how he would do it

2 i still don't understand why using the bible is wrong, he would recreate the phenomena thought his own RW powers (as the phenomena would be the same/similar not the process, it would be used to limit the scale of his reality warping) and the bible is in the universe but not everything is cited for obvious reasons if u don't trust me ask DT and LH about the bible in index
 
Considering literally every staff + a lot of regulars on the thread are against it, doesn't seem like it's getting there.
 
i think u are seeing from the wrong angle, he already has RW that can affect the world, the bible would work as a limitation, as he would only be able to create phenomena similar to the ones stated in the bible

what is interpretative is the method he would do it but the result would not change
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Also SMT references incredibly obscure myths by verbatum almost in its compendium, demon dialogue and designs, and we know from artbooks that Kazuma Kaneko would read the actual mythology books and guides for inspiration in art and design.
Doesn't mean we'll scale.
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ok, maybe i explained it badly, in his base form he already can twist reality at universal scale but it was specified what he could do, in the upgraded form LPSAD his physical presence twist reality calling down the phase so he already has that scale of power, then it's stated that he can recreate all the legend of Christianity to limit the freedom he has of his RW, the scale would not change is just the results (as how he can change reality is limited to the legend of Christianity and can't perform something unrelated)

if the author had written that he could simply change reality as he wanted would it change anything ? The reference to the bible are there to limit and give an idea to the reader of how much he can change reality, the argument that it can't be used for scaling is stupid cause we are using the Bible/the legends of Christianity to determinate the freedom he has with his reality warping (basically infinity stones that can only copy what is written in the bible)
 
ZacharyGrossman273 said:
This is like arguing SMT should be 1-A due to having Hindu gods in it
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One thing I think may not have been clear, and it seems that no one has spoken so far, is that we are NOT trying to scale Fiamma with the bible to have 1A, or tier 0 powers that may be in the bible, ie whether something is done on a 1B or larger scale in the bible, so for Fiamma it would only be on a high 1C scale, so other verses having beings of myths and not being on the same tier of them is absolutely irrelevant here.
 
Okay, and what's your point exactly? All you're really arguing here is that apparently scaling Fiamma to the Bible is less ridiculous and more acceptable because it won't give him 1-A abilities or tiers, just additional powers... Even though both are acquisitions born from the same principle, scaling a fictional character to real life religions / mythologies because of similarities and statements in the fiction.

Both are equally wrong and fallacious, you can't more give Shin Megami Tensei Gods 1-A because of high-end Hinduism moreso than you can also verses to Lovecraft's original works simply because his stuff is public domain. Even verses which treat Lovecraft's original public domain stories as actual canon don't get direct scaling from him, and that's an even more direct case to be had there.

Hell, even the argument that "Miracles don't give Fiamma Tier 2 / 1 power" is entirely baseless and born out of pick and choosing, as the literal creation of the universe is considered a Miracle by many religious scholars.

Which also goes back to the problem of what is and isn't a Miracle in Christianity being unclear and based on interpretation.
 
I will be repeating something that has been said a thousand times here, but it seems that it is still necessary, the Indexverse has its own concept of what a miracle is, so if something does not fit into this concept, it is not a miracle. And one thing, we're using the Indexverse Bible, and it's the same as our universe, so it's not a matter of basing something outside of the Index universe, but something that exists there and that also exists here, in the same way that we use the size of our Earth and the Moon when both are destroyed, it was not the real that suffered alteration or interaction with fiction, but a fictitious version that is identical until proven otherwise.
 
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