Gilgamesh downgrade

[PhantasmalGreatsword]

Nope. i already read everything.

You where still saying that all of the Wars (or whatever) stats are equal. Which is not like that.

I think they're equal. Why thier actual stats seem different is simply becasue fate works are written by many authors.

 

[KamiYasha]

Following that logic every single Servant with a B or higher agility should be rated as MSH (based on a Fate/Proto calc)... That isn't accepted here or in the OBD.

 

[AkatsukiChurch]

Nope. i already read everything.

You where still saying that all of the Wars (or whatever) stats are equal. Which is not like that.

I think they're equal. Why thier actual stats seem different is simply becasue fate works are written by many authors.

Actually, F/SN, F/P and F/E (the story, that is, he had nothing to do with the gameplay, or its mechanics) are all written by Nasu. But there is zero proven difference with the stats from different Grail Wars, in fact, the fact that they all have the same source for summoning the Servants is proof that they are all equal.

 

[KamiYasha]

Following that logic every single Servant with a B or higher agility should be rated as MSH (based on a Fate/Proto calc)... That isn't accepted here or in the OBD.

Bump

 

[AkatsukiChurch]

Following that logic every single Servant with a B or higher agility should be rated as MSH (based on a Fate/Proto calc)... That isn't accepted here or in the OBD.

You're still on about Fate/Prototype even though it's retconned? I assume you also believe that (Nasuverse) King Arthur is a man, Gil doesn't have Ea, instead has a golden bow named Enki, the HGW can take place in Tokyo even though it was stated over and over again Fuyuki is the only place in Japan in which the HGW can take place?

This has also been addressed previously, btw, which further evidences that you're outright ignoring my posts.

 

[PhantasmalGreatsword]

I think they're equal. Why thier actual stats seem different is simply becasue fate works are written by many authors.


Actually, F/SN, F/P and F/E (the story, that is, he had nothing to do with the gameplay, or its mechanics) are all written by Nasu. But there is zero proven difference with the stats from different Grail Wars, in fact, the fact that they all have the same source for summoning the Servants is proof that they are all equal.

Yeah but prequel of F/P is written by Hikaru Sakurai and she likes to portray servants' stats explicitly. So servant from this prequel seems much stronger than original's one.

 

[AkatsukiChurch]

I think they're equal. Why thier actual stats seem different is simply becasue fate works are written by many authors.

Actually, F/SN, F/P and F/E (the story, that is, he had nothing to do with the gameplay, or its mechanics) are all written by Nasu. But there is zero proven difference with the stats from different Grail Wars, in fact, the fact that they all have the same source for summoning the Servants is proof that they are all equal.

Yeah but prequel of F/P is written by Hikaru Sakurai and she likes to portray servants' stats explicitly. So servant from this prequel seems much stronger than original's one.


Sure, but in the end of the day, it doesn't matter since it's been retconned anyway.

 

[KamiYasha]

...

You know... I'm tired of this. The whole stats scaling isn't going to be accepted here.

If you still want to convince someone. Ask Alakabam of our Staff members. He will be happy to explain you (AS I DID BEFORE) why can't be power-scaled those stats from diferent Wars, events, etc.

 

[AkatsukiChurch]

...
You know... I'm tired of this. The whole stats scaling isn't going to be accepted here.

If you still want to convince someone. Ask Alakabam of our Staff members. He will be happy to explain you (AS I DID BEFORE) why can't be power-scaled those stats from diferent Wars, events, etc.

You didn't explain anything, all you said was "different HGW, different stat rank values", even though I explained to you why that assertion was wrong in the first place, and you still haven't countered my argument in the slightest, in fact, you didn't even address it, just outright ignored it. No disrespect, but you're coming off as really biased to one side here.

But sure, he can come here and try to counter my arguments.

 

[AkatsukiChurch]

Proof that Fate/Extra's Servants also come from the Throne of Heroes:

"Taiga: Is it correct to say that Moon Cell Servants aren't summoned from the counter force, but are instead reproduced copies like NPCs?

Sakura: Yes, that's right. To be more precise, they are perfectly reproduced from the Moon Cell's records of human history. However, that human history is connected to the throne of heroes in multiple ways, so they can't be called copies as a rule. In short, the Moon Cell consciously creates its own history of humanity, but that history is the exact same as the throne of heroes, so it's like they overlap in multiple ways as the same existences.

Taiga: While we're at it, the counter force is a different thing altogether. Archer-san is a counter force heroic spirit, but Archer-san in EXTRA was summoned from the throne of heroes, so he's not a slave of the counter force this time.

Caster: I see, so the reason he has a few differences from the original Fate is also because of that state."

 

[Alakabamm]

Alright, I guess I will try to arrange this on a point by point basis:

1) I believe you are right on the MFTL+ travel speed thing. The only thing was that Tamamo's statement and the translation for it before were TL'd very vague but given that I never read the Gilgamesh line that makes some sense I suppose.

2) Surviving Kiara's attack is important, but it is less so than being able to contend with Kiara in general. Her attack is distinctly related to planetary destruction and can't be dismissed as a look alike like Gil's EA attack (which looked like galaxies being destroyed). So the servant do indeed scale to her level of durability.

3) We cannot scale servants to other wars for a couple reasons. First, the container. All servants are in a limited container that only allows them to access some of their power. In fact, it can be said that a servant is not even a heroic spirit at all, merely fragment of their soul torn from the ToH. Now, there are a couple exceptions to this, like EMIYA, Arturia, Tamamo and Scathach, but this is the general format.

So we can't make any sort of assumption about the container being the same. This is especially important considering that holy grails function by absorbing certain amounts of energy to create those containers and gathering that energy in various ways. When you add mythic formal wear to the equation, it is a huge mess.

Furthermore, the servants summoned by the Moon Cell are not guaranteed to be the same as the ones summoned by the Holy Grail constucted by the Einzberns. Case in point: Archer. In Fate/Extra, he is not EMIYA. He is a heroic spirit - not a counter guardian - and instead is a universal counterpart to EMIYA. In other words, there are multiple universes that servants can be summoned out of. All of the Alters prove this as well.

So basically, we cannot scale because:

1) Servants are limited fractions of Heroic Spirits, they have variable power based on container and other facts. Not all containers and systems are equal.

2) Mythic Formal Wear complicates this further

3) We have no clue if stats in F/SN are the same as Fate/Extra. They are an in-game system that masters are aware of, hence, they were developed by different universes under different standards

4) Servants have multiple possible copies, within a few exceptions (Arturia)

 

[Alakabamm]

Oh, and Fate Prototype was never "retconned." It was a college work by Nasu that was not released until after Fate/Stay Night was released and the movie only came out like...a year ago? Something like that. It's non-canon, sure, but it is not retconned.

 

[Alakabamm]

In short, the Moon Cell consciously creates its own history of humanity, but that history is the exact same as the throne of heroes, so it's like they overlap in multiple ways as the same existences.

This confirms that they are alternate versions, really.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Oh, and Fate Prototype was never "retconned." It was a college work by Nasu that was not released until after Fate/Stay Night was released and the movie only came out like...a year ago? Something like that. It's non-canon, sure, but it is not retconned.

Pretty much, since Proto Saber does appear in Fragments just as he was in Prototype.

The main reason almost everything (save Prisma stuff) is canon is due to Zelretch's Kaleidoscope, where he uses one of the True Magics to observe parallel universes, from which the stories originate.

Regarding the speed downgrade, the feat to me seems like travel speed, as it varies from which Servants you use (Nero says she 'cheats', Archer is unknown, Tamamo manipulates space and Gil uses his ship). There's no consistency and no proof that they can fight at those speeds.

 

[AkatsukiChurch]

Alright, I guess I will try to arrange this on a point by point basis:
1) I believe you are right on the MFTL+ travel speed thing. The only thing was that Tamamo's statement and the translation for it before were TL'd very vague but given that I never read the Gilgamesh line that makes some sense I suppose.

2) Surviving Kiara's attack is important, but it is less so than being able to contend with Kiara in general. Her attack is distinctly related to planetary destruction and can't be dismissed as a look alike like Gil's EA attack (which looked like galaxies being destroyed). So the servant do indeed scale to her level of durability.

3) We cannot scale servants to other wars for a couple reasons. First, the container. All servants are in a limited container that only allows them to access some of their power. In fact, it can be said that a servant is not even a heroic spirit at all, merely fragment of their soul torn from the ToH. Now, there are a couple exceptions to this, like EMIYA, Arturia, Tamamo and Scathach, but this is the general format.

So we can't make any sort of assumption about the container being the same. This is especially important considering that holy grails function by absorbing certain amounts of energy to create those containers and gathering that energy in various ways. When you add mythic formal wear to the equation, it is a huge mess.

Furthermore, the servants summoned by the Moon Cell are not guaranteed to be the same as the ones summoned by the Holy Grail constucted by the Einzberns. Case in point: Archer. In Fate/Extra, he is not EMIYA. He is a heroic spirit - not a counter guardian - and instead is a universal counterpart to EMIYA. In other words, there are multiple universes that servants can be summoned out of. All of the Alters prove this as well.

So basically, we cannot scale because:

1) Servants are limited fractions of Heroic Spirits, they have variable power based on container and other facts. Not all containers and systems are equal.

2) Mythic Formal Wear complicates this further

3) We have no clue if stats in F/SN are the same as Fate/Extra. They are an in-game system that masters are aware of, hence, they were developed by different universes under different standards

4) Servants have multiple possible copies, within a few exceptions (Arturia)

1) Alright, glad you agree.

2) Ehh, we all know Gil is above her, but as evidenced multiple times, in the Nasuverse, being stronger than someone doesn't give you the scaling for all their stats, for example, it's painfully obvious that Gilgamesh is above the likes of Heracles, as evidenced from the fact that in the original VN, Gil killed him without even moving from his spot (this was mostly because Berserker was protecting Illya, but you get the point), but even then, we don't put Gil above Heracles in durability since the latter has superior durability as evidenced from both feats and their respective stat sheets. So we can't scale his durability from her NP.

3) I never argued against the Servants being weaker if the Grail isn't strong enough to summon them at their full power, in fact, I said exactly that in a previous post. However the container being too weak would decrease the stat's rank (for example, from A to B), it doesn't change the actual values of the ranks (if X Servant has A rank speed in the Fuyuki HGW, and has A in the Moon Cell HGW, his speed will be exactly the same) due to all Grail Wars summoning Servants from the Throne of Heroes, which is where everything about the Heroic Spirit is recorded.

Look at my previous post, it literally says that they're copies made from Moon Cell's recorded history from humanity, which is connected to the Throne of Heroes.

Archer is the only exception, due to him being a summoned from his status as a CG during F/SN, and being summoned as an HS in F/E, Gil is an HS in both F/SN and F/E, so your example doesn't apply to him. Which Alters? Saber Alter is just a different side of the same Heroic Spirit (Artoria), Gil is the same Gil in both settings, Jeanne Alter is Gilles' wish from the Grail in Orleans' Grand Order, C├║ Alter is Medb's wish from the Grail in E Pluribus Unum's Grand Order, the latter two aren't even the same Heroic Spirits as their "non-Alter" counterparts Gil was explicitly summoned from the Throne of Heroes' records, he wasn't anyone's wish, so it can't apply to him.

1) Never argued against it.

2) Not sure why.

3) Read my previous post.

4) And what is the difference between F/SN Gil and F/E Gil?

 

[AkatsukiChurch]

Oh, and Fate Prototype was never "retconned." It was a college work by Nasu that was not released until after Fate/Stay Night was released and the movie only came out like...a year ago? Something like that. It's non-canon, sure, but it is not retconned.

I said retconned because he made it first, but sure, call it whatever you wish.

 

[AkatsukiChurch]

In short, the Moon Cell consciously creates its own history of humanity, but that history is the exact same as the throne of heroes, so it's like they overlap in multiple ways as the same existences.

This confirms that they are alternate versions, really.

It literally states that the Moon Cell's history is both connected to the Throne of Heroes, and that it's exactly the same as the Throne of Heroes, so Gil is still exactly the same.

"...However, that human history is connected to the throne of heroes in multiple ways, so they can't be called copies as a rule."

In other words, the Moon Cell literally took everything from the original Throne of Heroes and reproduced it. So why wouldn't we be able to scale them?

 

[Alakabamm]

It literally states that the Moon Cell's history is both connected to the Throne of Heroes, and that it's exactly the same as the Throne of Heroes, so Gil is still exactly the same.

"...However, that human history is connected to the throne of heroes in multiple ways, so they can't be called copies as a rule."

In other words, the Moon Cell literally took everything from the original Throne of Heroes and reproduced it. So why wouldn't we be able to scale them?

This is the reason I used Archer as an example. Archer from F/E is NOT EMIYA. He is not from any type of universe dealing with what happened in Fate/Stay Night. He developed in an entirely different world - supposedly the Fate/Extta world itself, and sold his soul to the Moon Cell, not Alaya

The only reason he is a Heroic Spirit is because the Moon Cell has separate mechanics and treats all of its summons as Heroic Spirits, even Divine Beings like Tamamo. In effect, he is really a CG of the Moon Cell. So he is entirely different and this proves that servants can come from any number of possible universes, with differences between them.

This is also why I bring up Alters. For example, what is the difference between Cu summoned as a Caster and as a Lancer? It appears that they share the same history, but they are clearly different in more than just stats. Their attitude itself is affected. This may be a result of the container, but it seems to me that the part of the soul dragged out is not always equal. There isn't anything to suggest it is equal either, so there is no scaling logic that is valid there.

 

[Alakabamm]

2) My point is not about Gil being "superior" but rather being able to fight her in general. If Planet Level attacks were really above him, then she would have demolished him. This is not game mechanics, it is just what the story itself says. Of course, this applies to all the other servants that fought her as well. Again, the HP value doesn't matter that much.

3) Three important things here that you missed:

a) Servants are not Heroic Spirits. They are fragments of Heroic Spirits at best and this is only in the Moon Cell, which treats any type of being summoned as a "Heroic Spirit" So we can neither assess their "true power" or make any type of argument about what their stats would be, since we don't know how fractionating the soul affects that power.

b) Stats are in-universe designed and should realistically vary by what universe they are in. Masters are aware of stats and understand what they mean. Furthermore, they are tailored to the magecraft of the world itself - which in Fate/Extra was dying off - so we have no concrete frame of reference.

c) The quote you posted literally said "similar but different." Look: "..so it's like they overlap in multiple ways as the same existences." They overlap but are not the same. They're not "copies" but rather an alternate version. This lines up with the existence of Alter servants and what was said about Archer from F/E, which is that he has the same "existence" as Archer from F/SN but is a different person.

 

[AkatsukiChurch]

It literally states that the Moon Cell's history is both connected to the Throne of Heroes, and that it's exactly the same as the Throne of Heroes, so Gil is still exactly the same.

"...However, that human history is connected to the throne of heroes in multiple ways, so they can't be called copies as a rule."

In other words, the Moon Cell literally took everything from the original Throne of Heroes and reproduced it. So why wouldn't we be able to scale them?

This is the reason I used Archer as an example. Archer from F/E is NOT EMIYA. He is not from any type of universe dealing with what happened in Fate/Stay Night. He developed in an entirely different world - supposedly the Fate/Extta world itself, and sold his soul to the Moon Cell, not Alaya
The only reason he is a Heroic Spirit is because the Moon Cell has separate mechanics and treats all of its summons as Heroic Spirits, even Divine Beings like Tamamo. In effect, he is really a CG of the Moon Cell. So he is entirely different and this proves that servants can come from any number of possible universes, with differences between them.

This is also why I bring up Alters. For example, what is the difference between Cu summoned as a Caster and as a Lancer? It appears that they share the same history, but they are clearly different in more than just stats. Their attitude itself is affected. This may be a result of the container, but it seems to me that the part of the soul dragged out is not always equal. There isn't anything to suggest it is equal either, so there is no scaling logic that is valid there.

Sure, but that applies to Archer, the same can't be said for Gil since, unlike Archer, he is a legitimate HS from the Throne of Heroes in both settings, and Moon Cell copies literally everything from the Throne of Heroes as evidenced in the quote I provided.

Tamamo isn't a Divine Spirit in Extra, only nine tailed Tamamo is a Divine Spirit, and she can't be summoned as a Servant, you know one person can be recorded in both the Throne of Heroes and Thrones of Gods right? For example, Herc after his death ascended to godhood, and that Herc can't be summoned as a Servant due to being a a Divine Spirit, he can be summoned as Servant because the Throne of Heroes recorded him before his death, same goes for Tamamo, one tailed Tamamo was recorded in the Throne of Heroes, while nine tailed was recorded in the Throne of Gods, since IIRC she is basically Amaterasu in that form. It doesn't prove anything, I, on the other hand, have already provided proof that the Moon Cell ctrl c + ctrl v'd the shit out of the Throne of Heroes, so they're the same Heroic Spirits, Sakura even says that because of that they can't even be called mere copies, they're the same people.

Ehh, I assume you mean Berserker? C├║ Caster is the same C├║ as C├║ Lancer in literally everything but class, including personality, only thing is that they were summoned in different classes, and that has been a thing since... well, forever. As for Berserker, C├║ Alter and the original C├║ aren't the same in literally anything, not even the same guy, C├║ Alter is literally a product of Medb's wish, a whole new guy/HS. Same goes for Jeanne. And Saber Alter is her suppressed emotions and blah blah blah as a result from Sakura's Black Grail (Angra Mainyu) corrupting her, and thus bringing out another side of her, so she's basically a version of Artoria that can't be summoned normally; Gil, however, is, well, Gil. Not Gil Alter, not a different Gil, just Gil. Even the Moon Cell reproducing Servants isn't an excuse since they copypasted the Throne of Heroes' records into their history.

Either way, how does this "different version of Servants" even matters (if it were true, which it's not) when since the first place I'm talking about the stat rank values (for example, an A in the Fuyuki HGW being the same as an A in the Moon Cell).

 

[Alakabamm]

"so it's like they overlap in multiple ways as the same existences."

They are not the same Heroic Spirit. They overlap but are different. Nasu says both Fate Extra Archer and Fate Stay Night Archer have the same EXISTENCE but they 1) have different histories 2) different origins 3) different statuses. We can't use existence as some sort of equivalence catch-all. Your quote even explains that. If they were the exact same, the quote would read: "NOPE. They are the same." It doesn't.

Tamamo is a complex topic but she is a part of a divine spirit, not a heroic spirit. That's why I called her an "exception." God Heracles is a different topic entirely.

You can see my stat argument in my first post and my response to your other post. Regardless, stats don't scale in the slightest.

 

[PhantasmalGreatsword]

Why people still assume that mythic formal wear make servants get power during their life?

I mean, In F/GO, Real Nero appeared and characters were surprised becasue Nero has power equal to servants while she was still alive.. This means that wearing the clothes makes them much stronger than actual heroic spirits.

Also, Kiara is not planet level.

 

[Alakabamm]

Real Nero =/= Full Heroic Spirit Nero

Heroic Spirits are the way people viewed them, not how they are. They are constructs fueled by humanity itself. Only fragments of them ever come out. Mythic Formal Wear allows the fragment to emulate the full thing's power to an extent. We don't know how much, but it is substantial. The only one who differs is maybe Tamamo and that is why she is a complex topic, because she is merely "treated" as a Heroic Spirit.

And Kiara is planet level. Explictly. Shown in-game with her NP as well.

 

[PhantasmalGreatsword]

Real Nero =/= Full Heroic Spirit Nero

Heroic Spirits are the way people viewed them, not how they are. They are constructs fueled by humanity itself. Only fragments of them ever come out. Mythic Formal Wear allows the fragment to emulate the full thing's power to an extent. We don't know how much, but it is substantial. The only one who differs is maybe Tamamo and that is why she is a complex topic, because she is merely "treated" as a Heroic Spirit.

And Kiara is planet level. Explictly. Shown in-game with her NP as well.

No, aa I posted before, actual attack point of her NP is a hole even smaller than human. Becoming larger than the planet is just representation what her NP is capable of. Since the Nap is anyway anti-plant NP. But it is about manipulating souls.

 

[Alakabamm]

It's not a representation, because her lore combined with her NP animation matches it being capable of planetary destruction, not merely manipulation of souls based on lust.

 

[AkatsukiChurch]

2) My point is not about Gil being "superior" but rather being able to fight her in general. If Planet Level attacks were really above him, then she would have demolished him. This is not game mechanics, it is just what the story itself says. Of course, this applies to all the other servants that fought her as well. Again, the HP value doesn't matter that much.
3) Three important things here that you missed:

a) Servants are not Heroic Spirits. They are fragments of Heroic Spirits at best and this is only in the Moon Cell, which treats any type of being summoned as a "Heroic Spirit" So we can neither assess their "true power" or make any type of argument about what their stats would be, since we don't know how fractionating the soul affects that power.

b) Stats are in-universe designed and should realistically vary by what universe they are in. Masters are aware of stats and understand what they mean. Furthermore, they are tailored to the magecraft of the world itself - which in Fate/Extra was dying off - so we have no concrete frame of reference.

c) The quote you posted literally said "similar but different." Look: "..so it's like they overlap in multiple ways as the same existences." They overlap but are not the same. They're not "copies" but rather an alternate version. This lines up with the existence of Alter servants and what was said about Archer from F/E, which is that he has the same "existence" as Archer from F/SN but is a different person.

2) She has one planet level attack, an attack we don't even know if she used on him outside of gameplay mechanics, and he has planet level attacks too, so why would she demolish him? You know, you can defeat someone without being hit.

3) a) Never have I said they were the same, only that the Servants summon the Heroic Spirits as Servants, how much of the HS they can bring out as a Servant depends on how powerful the container is. Never argued against any of this, so don't see the point.

b) The stats values aren't designated by the universe, they're recorded by the Throne of Heroes, so the values of the ranks will still be the same, if the container isn't strong enough, it'll decrease the rank of said stat' NOT the values of the rank'. The magecraft point is the same as the container thing I just addressed, the amount of magecraft present in the universe is a factor to the rank's, NOT their values.

c) Don't cut out bits of the quotes, it literally said before that, that the "human history records" in the Moon Cell is exactly the same as the Throne of Heroes. Also, nowhere does the quote say that they're alternate versions (as evidenced from the fact that there's 0 differences between the Heroic Spirits of both settings, other than the fact that the Moon Cell is a much better container, so it brings out Servants closer to their power, Archer is a very special case, which doesn't apply to Gil), it says they cannot be called "copies" as a rule because they are the exact same Servants due to the fact that the human history records from the Moon Cell are, once again, exactly the same as the Throne of Heroes. That has nothing to do with the Alters in the slightest, and in Archer's case, he is neither the same person nor the same existence, he's based on EMIYA, but isn't exactly him because of the records of his existence as EMIYA being lost, and is an HS instead of a CG. None of that has anything to do with Gil.

 

[AkatsukiChurch]

"so it's like they overlap in multiple ways as the same existences."
They are not the same Heroic Spirit. They overlap but are different. Nasu says both Fate Extra Archer and Fate Stay Night Archer have the same EXISTENCE but they 1) have different histories 2) different origins 3) different statuses. We can't use existence as some sort of equivalence catch-all. Your quote even explains that. If they were the exact same, the quote would read: "NOPE. They are the same." It doesn't.

Tamamo is a complex topic but she is a part of a divine spirit, not a heroic spirit. That's why I called her an "exception." God Heracles is a different topic entirely.

You can see my stat argument in my first post and my response to your other post. Regardless, stats don't scale in the slightest.

Archer is an exception, he isn't the same guy, I have already addressed that, he isn't an alternate version, he's just not the same guy; you're just taking an exception and trying to pass it off as the rule. The quote does, in fact, literally state that the "human history records" from which the Servants are summoned are the exact same as the original Throne of Heroes, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

No, it isn't, one version of her was recorded in the Throne of Heroes, while her full powered version was recorded in the Throne of Gods, that's literally the same as Heracles, really.

Which I already addressed, multiple times, actually.

 

[AkatsukiChurch]

Anyway, I gotta go off now. Will reply to anything posted after I wake up.

Edit: you forced my hand.

 

[Alakabamm]

2) Okay? He clearly takes hits from her and survived it though. If we were even to simply compare Noble Phantasm strengths, his armor gives a good reason why he should be able to survive a strong opposing Noble Phantasm anyways. You can call it an "outlier" but the fact that he already hits on a planetary scale makes that type of argument negligible

3) a) It is important because you are talking about different summonings and thus separate fragmentations of the soul. There is a reason that Heaven's Feel was required in building a grail, you know.

b) The stat values are based off the Mage Association values that are constructed in universe. They are magical interpretations of the strength of a servant via spells. We have NEVER had a way to assess the effect of a container on stats. NEVER. This doesn't mean we can't postulate about it, but you can't tell me whether Fate/Extra containers are superior to F/SN ones at all. The only relevant piece of information that we have on a definite increase is the existence of Grand Servants and that doesn't have anything to do with stats at all.

The "values" you talk about are in respect to the Mage Associations, which differ by universe. There is no frame of reference, as I said.

c) No. It. Is. Not. At this point, I have posted the quote three times and I have pointed out what part shows that they are not the same, and you response is to call it "non-topical" and say that your fragment is indicative of it. Furthermore, I already addressed your fragment.

I will not entertain this line of argumentation any longer, unless you choose to actually engage my argument. Until I see that, your argument is merely repetition of something I already debunked.

And as for F/E Emiya? His description said that Fate/Extra Emiya and EMIYA have the "same existence" despite their vast differences. In Nasuverse, "existence" is not a catch-all for equivalence.

 

[Alakabamm]

Here is what you are missing:

I never cared if Archer was an exception, although that line of argumentation is wrong because of the existence of multiple versions of servants and the fact that we can't draw equivalence from separate fragments of souls stuffed into a container.

The important point was that "existence" in Nasuverse is not a catch-all for equivalance. The quote you posted calls the servants the same "existence." That means they are similar, but not the same. It also talks about how they merely "overlap" which is more than enough proof for what I said.

 

[AkatsukiChurch]

2) Okay? He clearly takes hits from her and survived it though. If we were even to simply compare Noble Phantasm strengths, his armor gives a good reason why he should be able to survive a strong opposing Noble Phantasm anyways. You can call it an "outlier" but the fact that he already hits on a planetary scale makes that type of argument negligible
3) a) It is important because you are talking about different summonings and thus separate fragmentations of the soul. There is a reason that Heaven's Feel was required in building a grail, you know.

b) The stat values are based off the Mage Association values that are constructed in universe. They are magical interpretations of the strength of a servant via spells. We have NEVER had a way to assess the effect of a container on stats. NEVER. This doesn't mean we can't postulate about it, but you can't tell me whether Fate/Extra containers are superior to F/SN ones at all. The only relevant piece of information that we have on a definite increase is the existence of Grand Servants and that doesn't have anything to do with stats at all.

The "values" you talk about are in respect to the Mage Associations, which differ by universe. There is no frame of reference, as I said.

c) No. It. Is. Not. At this point, I have posted the quote three times and I have pointed out what part shows that they are not the same, and you response is to call it "non-topical" and say that your fragment is indicative of it.

I will not entertain this line of argumentation any longer, unless you choose to actually engage my argument. Until I see that, your argument is merely repetition of something I already debunked.

And as for F/E Emiya? His description said that Fate/Extra Emiya and EMIYA have the "same existence" despite their vast differences. In Nasuverse, "existence" is not a catch-all for equivalence. I will not be repeating this a third time and if you do not engage it besides saying "nu-uh" consider it a lost point on your part.

2) Never called it an outlier, I said the feat relies heavily on gameplay mechanics, there's no proof that he took a hit from her, let alone from her most powerful attack.

3) a) What does that have to do with... well, anything I said? The Grail is just a catalyst, a container, what determines the stat values is the Throne of Heroes, not the Grail system. So, where are you going with this?

b) Doesn't matter, really, the actual Servant's stats (abilities) were recorded by the Throne of Heroes, so it will be the same thing in both HGW's, also most of the Servants will be the same as they were in the Fuyuki HGW since the HGW was powerful enough to summon them at their maximum possible power as Servants (Gil, of course, is an exception, since the HG in Fuyuki wasn't powerful enough to bring out his full power, the same wasn't true for every other Servant except Herc, both due to being in a terrible class for him, and due to being a Divine Spirit at full power) since most weren't exceptionally strong Servants, so the Magic Association will interpret the Servants' strength in the same way, therefore the ranks will have the same value in both universes. In other words, just because the Moon Cell can bring more of the power of a few Servants due to being superior to Fuyuki's Grail, doesn't mean all Servants were weakened during the Fuyuki HGW, the ones that Fuyuki's Grail could bring at full power will be the same in the Moon Cell, Gil is an exception just because Fuyuki's Grail wasn't powerful enough to summon him at full power, so it summoned him at a fraction of his power, so your average Servant in the Fuyuki HGW is the same as your average Servant in the Moon Cell, therefore the stat ranks values will be interpreted in the exact same way.

c) Yes, and your quote doesn't disprove anything, in fact, it says that the Servants are all the same existences as the ones in the original Throne of Heroes. And you have been nitpicking on bits of the quote three times by now in order to try and fit your definition, and you've been ignoring this bit over and over:

" they are perfectly reproduced from the Moon Cell's records of human history."

" However, that human history is connected to the throne of heroes in multiple ways, so they can't be called copies as a rule."

" but that history is the exact same as the throne of heroes,"

Let's just hope you don't ignore/deny this yet a another time

And his original existence was erased, the one in Extra is just a copy from the original Emiya:

"01 - Character Background A hero without a name. A fictional Legendary Soul. A fake. The remnants of a person who spent his human life in the pursuit of justice. While the man who spawned this Legendary Soul was once a real, living being, the slow passage of time has completely erased his entire existence from the records of human history."

This is just a fictional copy of EMIYA.

 

[Alakabamm]

2) Already addressed gameplay mechanics

3) a) You keep talking about stat values, but those aren't consistent between verses. I guess you admit that the fragments of the soul aren't necessaily the same, so I will take that as an admittance.

You completely ignrored what I said. So now I will ask you for a source on these things, although I know you have nothing:

I) A source saying the containers produced in Extra are the same as or superior to the containers produced in F/SN

II) A source saying that the Moon Cell summons full Heroic Spirits and not just servants

Until you get those things I won't even consider this as anything other than nonsense.

b) "so the Magic Association will interpret the Servants' strength in the same way, therefore the ranks will have the same value in both universes." Except that the ranks between universes are determined by the Mage Association. A rank in F/SN Universe may not be the same as A rank in Fate/Extra. It is dependent upon the Mage Association's power rankings, hence, there can never be a comparison between stats.

What you said is not an address on my argument. Read it again. You've effectively failed to rebut it.

As for the argument regarding the containers, see 1) a) I) and give me evidence or you have failed to make an cohesive argument at all.

c) I've already addressed the existence thing in regards to what Nasu has already given us. I will not restate it any further. Respond to it or consider it dropped. Last time I will say this as well.

Not being called "copies as a rule" literally means the opposite of what you are advocating. It means "they can't be called the same as a rule."

History of a servant from the Throne is different from the Moon Cell's records. The Moon Cell is not multiversal, it exists only in Fate Extra. So because its records are of merely one universe, it overlaps them with the Throne's to provide a composite servant that merely "overlaps" the other. This is supplemented by the rest of the quote, which only says their "existences" are the same. But I already debunked that and since you offered no counter I will consider that dropped.


In conclusion, your own quote says the opposite of what you are implying it does and doesn't imply equivocation in anything but "existence," which is inconsequential. You also failed to rebut what I said about the stats. You also don't provide evidence for things I already said were not the case in the verse. Until I see a good response that actually addresses my points, don't bother posting again.

 

[AkatsukiChurch]

Here is what you are missing:
I never cared if Archer was an exception, although that line of argumentation is wrong because of the existence of multiple versions of servants and the fact that we can't draw equivalence from separate fragments of souls stuffed into a container.

The important point was that "existence" in Nasuverse is not a catch-all for equivalance. The quote you posted calls the servants the same "existence." That means they are similar, but not the same. It also talks about how they merely "overlap" which is more than enough proof for what I said.

I don't care if you care or not, he is an exception, and it isn't Gilgamesh's case, Archer in Extra isn't called Emiya for a reason, he isn't the same guy, Gilgamesh is Gilgamesh, everything about him is the same. The Alters also have nothing to do with this, Gilgamesh has zero traits of an Alter, and he isn't called "Gilgamesh Alter" for a reason, his personality is the same, his appearance is the same, his abilities are the same (just at larger scale due to being summoned closer to his full power), one thing that all the Alters have in common other than twisted personality and appearance, is that they are all corrupted, Gilgamesh on the other hand can't even be corrupted according to Nasu himself because he has extremely high willpower and blah blah blah which is why he survived getting in contact with the Grail at the end of the 4th HGW, and also why Sakura immediately converted him to magical energy when she absorbed him, because instead of being corrupted like Artoria and Heracles were, Sakura was afraid he would rip her from inside out. So a Gilgamesh Alter isn't even possible. The only thing you can argue here is that Gilgamesh in CCC is a reproduction from the original one in the Throne of Heroes, which is pointless, considering the quote states that the records of which he was summoned from were exactly the same as the original Throne of Heroes, so there's nothing you can argue about there, it's the same exact Gil, appearance, personality, abilities, everything.

Holy mother of God, the quote outright states this:

" they are perfectly reproduced from the Moon Cell's records of human history."

" However, that human history is connected to the throne of heroes in multiple ways, so they can't be called copies as a rule."

" but that history is the exact same as the throne of heroes,"

They are perfectly reproduced from the Moon Cell's records of human history which is the exact same as the Throne of Heroes. How do you explain this?

*awaits yet another ignore*

 

[Alakabamm]

Also, since this is now a waste of my time, I am imposing this rule: Your posts will be deleted if they don't have either the evidence I requested or a response to the three arguments you dropped (the one regarding stats, the one regarding gameplay mechanics and the one regarding your own quote's interpretation).

Obviously, I will only do this for posts that are responses to my own arguments. Feel free to post anything else related to the thread topic, but if it is a response to me and it doesn't have at least one of those things, I will delete it.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Ok guys, is the MFTL+ feat travel speed only or not? Since we should get that out of the way before continuing on to durability.

 

[Alakabamm]

Ok guys, is the MFTL+ feat travel speed only or not? Since we should get that out of the way before continuing on to durability.

Yes its only travel speed

 

[Yamatohime]

Ok guys, is the MFTL+ feat travel speed only or not? Since we should get that out of the way before continuing on to durability.

I think it's travel speed and probably reaction speed... At least for Gilgamesh (or otherwise his NP has sofisticated AI).

 

[RegisNex1232]

Yes

Ok, so what would this mean for the speeds of others like Tamamo, Archer and Nero with MFW?

Regarding Durability, let me just say this. MFW boosts anyone not Gil since their true forms (save for Tamamo when she becomes Amaterasu) as HS are nowhere near HS Gil's level. So saying that HS Nero and EMIYA (and whatever Tamamo) is have Planet level durability is false. They only have it with the MFW.

Apparently Kiara only grows when she uses her NP, since she needs to be that big in order to ********** with the Earth. The attack itself uses the pleasure and desires from all the living creatures on Earth to melt the opponent.

 

[AkatsukiChurch]

2) And yet you haven't given a good reason as to why his durability would scale to her most powerful attack's DC, even though nothing indicates that she got to use it on him before getting defeated.

3) a) Idk what you mean with fragments of the soul, if that is how much of the HS can be summoned as a Servant depending on how powerful the container is, then I never disputed it in the first place.

I) Ignored what? Source for what?

II) ...The sole fact that Gil has planet level attacks should be enough to prove that the Moon Cell's container can bring out more of the Servant than the Fuyuki HGW, therefore more powerful, but if it were less powerful than the Fuyuki HG, than it would help my stat rank values point if anything, which is literally all that I'm arguing here.

III) ...when did I ever claim that the Moon Cell brings out the HS themselves instead of Servants? Now I'm convinced that you aren't reading my posts properly.

b) What? Do you think they randomly come up with the rank values? The ranks are literally tiers of stats which is obviously based on how strong the Servants are, so if the average Servants of both settings are of the same power, then the rank values will obviously be the same, the ones that are stronger in the Moon Cell HGW will simply gain a higher stat than before, the overall values of the ranks are the same.

c) No, it doesn't, if you're saying that they're not copies because they're completely different people, then it doesn't make any kind of logical sense in the context, which is:

" However, that human history is connected to the throne of heroes in multiple ways, so they can't be called copies as a rule."

It says they're connected to the original Throne of Heroes, so they aren't copies, they're the exact reproductions of the same people. It wouldn't make any sense to say that "they are connected to the ToH, so they can't be called copies as a rule because they're completely different people from the ones from the original ToH", pay attention to the so

Jesus Christ, the Servants are the same as the original ones from the Throne because:

" they are perfectly reproduced from the Moon Cell's records of human history."

" However, that human history is connected to the throne of heroes in multiple ways, so they can't be called copies as a rule."

" but that history is the exact same as the throne of heroes,"

Yeah, the Moon Cell isn't multiversal, but guess what is? Now guess what the Moon Cell's human history records is an exact copy of? Now guess where the Servants from Extra come from?

Answers: Throne of Heroes, Throne of Heroes, Moon Cell's human history records.

See the correlation now? I sure hope so, because I'm getting tired of rubbing this to your face over and over again, and yet the point still goes over your head.

 

[Promestein]

Please refrain from quoting large blocks of text.