- 20,504
- 1,587
Transcendential context proof and tier
Ok so after far too long, I finally got context on what the many, MANY statements of transcendence mean what they would give. Below will be every moment where certain characters have been stated to be "trancendent of time and space" (obviously not in a conceptual sense).
Ginji breaking through space-time (as explained by 1 of the most reliable sources in the series) and becoming "younger" through sheerly "existing beyond time". (1 of the best proofs of time transcendence i've stumbled upon as of rn in the manga).
Ginji exists outside of time and space that's why stuff like future, past and "remembering" are meaningless to him as he doesn't percieve past as "past" (transcends time, in the most blunt way it can be put).
Ginji pulled Raitei from across time and space (to absorb the negative feelings).
Yuuri's movements having a different visual look compared to normal movement and same for Ban in their 2nd fight inside the Beltline.
Paul Wan same as Ginji got back to his "young" self via "mastering time" and "go upstream"
Paul has transcended time and space.
Paul goes back from his prime to his old/current self without effort, by simply willing it
Raitei and Masaki could cause a low 2-C up to 2-A feat of Destruction if they were to clash due to the fact that they both channel the infinit fortress' nrg.
Ginji can ride Masaki's light between the gaps in space-time
The witch queen stating that if the members of the brain trust (all of the brain trust members have transcended time and space) are defeated the world itself will break. (idk what this means yet, but i'll try to figure it out as i keep reading).
Makubex interfered with the phase of the Archiver's virtual spacetime and sheltered the girl in hyperspace. And Raitei's plasma broke through the hyperspace.
Just to shed some light on the level of The Archiver and members of the brain trust. The archiver is a world building systemcreated to be the guardian of creation and responsabile for all that is the Get Backers verse (all of the universes, dimensions, paralel universes, past and all possible futures aswell, outside of real life, since the Get Backers is a virtual reality). Created by none other than the brain trust, (the dudes which the GB surpassed).
People like Kagami, Vodoo King, Masaki don't exist in the same "time" as the others.
The ogre battle disrupting spacetime to a point where the boundry between life and death is getting disrupted (Himiko's dead brother showed up and talked some sense into her, and while i would just say it's some spiritual stuff where she just sees his spirit or remembers her brother, but the fact that Kagami is also seeing her brother proves he is actually there).
The Witch Queen (the original holder of the Jagan and Divine Design) was so strong she actually stopped the Brain Trust and The Vodoo King's first attempt at choosing a future
The Archiver calls Kagami "transcendential" (gonna be explained later on).
Now to elaborate on Kagami's transcendence. He's fighting with Ban and he states that even among other brain trust members he is "special" (probably means much stronger than the others), and says that "Ban (who is not a transcendential being) and Him inhabit different time-frames" (different temporal dimensions). Kagami restates that he exists in a different time frame (temporal dimension) that's why Ban isn't able to follow his movements.
Kagami considers it "outrageous" for someone like Ban who isn't "transcendential" to manage to hurt him. And there is also the "ban is stopped part" just for good measure.And after Ban manages to cut his arm off there is still the same reaction on Kagami and even calls the feat (dmg-ing a transcendential being) "impossible".
I had these ready when i was reading the series, and these are iirc all the times where transcendential feats or stements were shown. Now at first people disagreed with these because of the lack of feats, but this was before the Low 2-C GetBackers was agreed upon. The fact that there are universal feats (at least universal that is, given how it may have resulted in a greater than universal scale destruction, not arguing that it should be more than Low 2-C on the profiles, just stating the facts), I believe i do not have to provide the scans for Low 2-C GB since this was already accepted by people before Monarch also helped with it. So i will just skip the point and go over to the main issue at hand that is transcendentials.
Transcendentials are characters who exist beyond "the virtual multiverse". Although it is first described as "being above time and space" it is later on revealed that the transcendentials are either inhabitants of the real world (like Akabane), or ex-inhabitants of the real world (like Kagami).
These people actually exist outside of the time and space of the multiverse of the archiver, completely transcending it. Which is what the "transcendence of time and space statements" actually say. Transcending the time and space of the multiverse is strictly only for the beings who exist as scientists in the real world and can affect it through the real world.
So the thing that wasn't adding up before was "they have no feats of nuking the multiverse, therefore they cannot be High 2-A" when it's not actually them that are High 2-A, it's their true self which is responsable for all their powers in their transcendential state.
The people who would scale to this are (out of the ones who have a profile):
Akabane Kuroudo
Ginji Amano
The Witch Quee
These are the only 3 who would have a new key being "true self" with High 2-A potency. This potency would scale only to their "Logic Hax" also called their "Hojutsu". Ban Midou would have High 2-A Potency through Logic Hax but he hasn't shown to have a true self in the real world, so he does not gain any of the transcendential traits or a new key (i will explain later why Ban scales at all).
Hojutsu/Logic
Now onto the "Logic Hax". There was some confusion before, due to it being named "logic" and having some statements like "that is the logic of infinity fortress" that this power does not exist (by people who haven't read the series), but is rather just a way of saying "that's how the world works". That is not the case. Hojutsu (another name for Logic Manipulation), is an actual power the residents of the beltline and the transcendentials can use. Hojutsu is a power that can be used to create souless beings from the archiver, destroy beings, nullify virtually any trait of a being etc. In verse it is impossible for a being possessing lower logic (betline residents) to beat beings who possess higher logic (transcendentials and Ban i will explain why ban scales below). Because the one possessing higher logic will just be toying with his opponent, not wishing for things to exist, deconstructing them, nullifying their abilities just by not believing their abilities could exist etc. The higher logic will always triumph which is why Akabane just sliced an immortal being and killed it for good, just because he wanted it to die, therefore his higher logic made it happen so. I won't be bothering to find every scene where logic has been used, you do get the idea why it is an actual power/ability from the multiple statements saying that "logic can make beings" "they used higher logic to destroy them" etc.
Furthermore, the "logic" of the world is not the same as our "logic". As in just because something seems illogical doesn't mean it is not bound by logic. As Himiko states, even the magic of Maria Noches that seemed irrational at first glance doesn't escape the bonds of Logic.
The users of Hojutsu would be:
Top Tiers
Ban Midou
Akabane Kuroudo
Ginji Amano (after transcending to the real world)
The Witch Quee
These people have either all transcended the real world or for unknown reasons are capable of using the highest logic. Ban Midou being the latter. Although he was never shown to have a real life self. He was stated to possess the same logic as Akabane (higher logic), and fought on par with Akabane and eventually beat him, something (as i said) that's not possible if you're fighting a higher logic than your own. Furthermore he could beat Akabane despite Akabane not having been able to believe that he could lose (which would make the outcome of him losing non existent/not possible). Logic can furthermore be used to see the future as stated by Kagenuma. Furthermore it is arguable that Ban's logic is actually superior to that of Akabane, because Ban was actually able to overpower the one belief Kagenuma said Akabane still had, and that is "not being able to die" (there is a scan above of this). Which would imply that he overpowered his logic and negated his belief. But that's not a stated fact just something you get from the fight and the result. Anyway this is why Ban scales to the transcendential logic.
Mid tiers
Der Kaiser
The Voodoo King (Although he's never shown he was capable of trashing Der Kaiser and his whole group casually, he is also a resident of the beltlne so he should be able to manipulate logic as well)
And some others who do not have a profile like Kagami (He only has mid tier logic because he is an ex resident, and not an actual resident), which lead to him being easily overpowered by Ban and strongly implied to be weaker than Akabane.
Low Tiers
Currently there are no profiles but this would scale only to Himiko i believe as her logic is exceptionally weak only being capable of stat amping and no other use. She is no resident of the beltline.
The Archiver
The archiver is not really gonna get any changes. Just a change i believe. Changing his tier to 2-B, likely 2-A until we get actual scans. This tier would scale to the Mid-Tier Logic users through their logic. As Der Kaiser for example can create beings from the archiver itself (Ban sent a logic monster created by Der Kaiser back to it's point of origin and it actually sent him back to simple data in the archvier).
Ok i believe that is all for now.
Ok so after far too long, I finally got context on what the many, MANY statements of transcendence mean what they would give. Below will be every moment where certain characters have been stated to be "trancendent of time and space" (obviously not in a conceptual sense).
Ginji breaking through space-time (as explained by 1 of the most reliable sources in the series) and becoming "younger" through sheerly "existing beyond time". (1 of the best proofs of time transcendence i've stumbled upon as of rn in the manga).
Ginji exists outside of time and space that's why stuff like future, past and "remembering" are meaningless to him as he doesn't percieve past as "past" (transcends time, in the most blunt way it can be put).
Ginji pulled Raitei from across time and space (to absorb the negative feelings).
Yuuri's movements having a different visual look compared to normal movement and same for Ban in their 2nd fight inside the Beltline.
Paul Wan same as Ginji got back to his "young" self via "mastering time" and "go upstream"
Paul has transcended time and space.
Paul goes back from his prime to his old/current self without effort, by simply willing it
Raitei and Masaki could cause a low 2-C up to 2-A feat of Destruction if they were to clash due to the fact that they both channel the infinit fortress' nrg.
Ginji can ride Masaki's light between the gaps in space-time
The witch queen stating that if the members of the brain trust (all of the brain trust members have transcended time and space) are defeated the world itself will break. (idk what this means yet, but i'll try to figure it out as i keep reading).
Makubex interfered with the phase of the Archiver's virtual spacetime and sheltered the girl in hyperspace. And Raitei's plasma broke through the hyperspace.
Just to shed some light on the level of The Archiver and members of the brain trust. The archiver is a world building systemcreated to be the guardian of creation and responsabile for all that is the Get Backers verse (all of the universes, dimensions, paralel universes, past and all possible futures aswell, outside of real life, since the Get Backers is a virtual reality). Created by none other than the brain trust, (the dudes which the GB surpassed).
People like Kagami, Vodoo King, Masaki don't exist in the same "time" as the others.
The ogre battle disrupting spacetime to a point where the boundry between life and death is getting disrupted (Himiko's dead brother showed up and talked some sense into her, and while i would just say it's some spiritual stuff where she just sees his spirit or remembers her brother, but the fact that Kagami is also seeing her brother proves he is actually there).
The Witch Queen (the original holder of the Jagan and Divine Design) was so strong she actually stopped the Brain Trust and The Vodoo King's first attempt at choosing a future
The Archiver calls Kagami "transcendential" (gonna be explained later on).
Now to elaborate on Kagami's transcendence. He's fighting with Ban and he states that even among other brain trust members he is "special" (probably means much stronger than the others), and says that "Ban (who is not a transcendential being) and Him inhabit different time-frames" (different temporal dimensions). Kagami restates that he exists in a different time frame (temporal dimension) that's why Ban isn't able to follow his movements.
Kagami considers it "outrageous" for someone like Ban who isn't "transcendential" to manage to hurt him. And there is also the "ban is stopped part" just for good measure.And after Ban manages to cut his arm off there is still the same reaction on Kagami and even calls the feat (dmg-ing a transcendential being) "impossible".
I had these ready when i was reading the series, and these are iirc all the times where transcendential feats or stements were shown. Now at first people disagreed with these because of the lack of feats, but this was before the Low 2-C GetBackers was agreed upon. The fact that there are universal feats (at least universal that is, given how it may have resulted in a greater than universal scale destruction, not arguing that it should be more than Low 2-C on the profiles, just stating the facts), I believe i do not have to provide the scans for Low 2-C GB since this was already accepted by people before Monarch also helped with it. So i will just skip the point and go over to the main issue at hand that is transcendentials.
Transcendentials are characters who exist beyond "the virtual multiverse". Although it is first described as "being above time and space" it is later on revealed that the transcendentials are either inhabitants of the real world (like Akabane), or ex-inhabitants of the real world (like Kagami).
These people actually exist outside of the time and space of the multiverse of the archiver, completely transcending it. Which is what the "transcendence of time and space statements" actually say. Transcending the time and space of the multiverse is strictly only for the beings who exist as scientists in the real world and can affect it through the real world.
So the thing that wasn't adding up before was "they have no feats of nuking the multiverse, therefore they cannot be High 2-A" when it's not actually them that are High 2-A, it's their true self which is responsable for all their powers in their transcendential state.
The people who would scale to this are (out of the ones who have a profile):
Akabane Kuroudo
Ginji Amano
The Witch Quee
These are the only 3 who would have a new key being "true self" with High 2-A potency. This potency would scale only to their "Logic Hax" also called their "Hojutsu". Ban Midou would have High 2-A Potency through Logic Hax but he hasn't shown to have a true self in the real world, so he does not gain any of the transcendential traits or a new key (i will explain later why Ban scales at all).
Hojutsu/Logic
Now onto the "Logic Hax". There was some confusion before, due to it being named "logic" and having some statements like "that is the logic of infinity fortress" that this power does not exist (by people who haven't read the series), but is rather just a way of saying "that's how the world works". That is not the case. Hojutsu (another name for Logic Manipulation), is an actual power the residents of the beltline and the transcendentials can use. Hojutsu is a power that can be used to create souless beings from the archiver, destroy beings, nullify virtually any trait of a being etc. In verse it is impossible for a being possessing lower logic (betline residents) to beat beings who possess higher logic (transcendentials and Ban i will explain why ban scales below). Because the one possessing higher logic will just be toying with his opponent, not wishing for things to exist, deconstructing them, nullifying their abilities just by not believing their abilities could exist etc. The higher logic will always triumph which is why Akabane just sliced an immortal being and killed it for good, just because he wanted it to die, therefore his higher logic made it happen so. I won't be bothering to find every scene where logic has been used, you do get the idea why it is an actual power/ability from the multiple statements saying that "logic can make beings" "they used higher logic to destroy them" etc.
Furthermore, the "logic" of the world is not the same as our "logic". As in just because something seems illogical doesn't mean it is not bound by logic. As Himiko states, even the magic of Maria Noches that seemed irrational at first glance doesn't escape the bonds of Logic.
The users of Hojutsu would be:
Top Tiers
Ban Midou
Akabane Kuroudo
Ginji Amano (after transcending to the real world)
The Witch Quee
These people have either all transcended the real world or for unknown reasons are capable of using the highest logic. Ban Midou being the latter. Although he was never shown to have a real life self. He was stated to possess the same logic as Akabane (higher logic), and fought on par with Akabane and eventually beat him, something (as i said) that's not possible if you're fighting a higher logic than your own. Furthermore he could beat Akabane despite Akabane not having been able to believe that he could lose (which would make the outcome of him losing non existent/not possible). Logic can furthermore be used to see the future as stated by Kagenuma. Furthermore it is arguable that Ban's logic is actually superior to that of Akabane, because Ban was actually able to overpower the one belief Kagenuma said Akabane still had, and that is "not being able to die" (there is a scan above of this). Which would imply that he overpowered his logic and negated his belief. But that's not a stated fact just something you get from the fight and the result. Anyway this is why Ban scales to the transcendential logic.
Mid tiers
Der Kaiser
The Voodoo King (Although he's never shown he was capable of trashing Der Kaiser and his whole group casually, he is also a resident of the beltlne so he should be able to manipulate logic as well)
And some others who do not have a profile like Kagami (He only has mid tier logic because he is an ex resident, and not an actual resident), which lead to him being easily overpowered by Ban and strongly implied to be weaker than Akabane.
Low Tiers
Currently there are no profiles but this would scale only to Himiko i believe as her logic is exceptionally weak only being capable of stat amping and no other use. She is no resident of the beltline.
The Archiver
The archiver is not really gonna get any changes. Just a change i believe. Changing his tier to 2-B, likely 2-A until we get actual scans. This tier would scale to the Mid-Tier Logic users through their logic. As Der Kaiser for example can create beings from the archiver itself (Ban sent a logic monster created by Der Kaiser back to it's point of origin and it actually sent him back to simple data in the archvier).
Ok i believe that is all for now.
