GER's Willpower Manip

[Firephoenixearl]

@DRW

Not really. It depends on the power that's trying to be added and other factors too.

Not any reliable statement can give powers.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

In the autopsy room, Diavolo was clearly very confused and wanted to move around. However, he couldn't move an inch despite him desperately trying to.

Diavolo still had killing intent towards the dude with a knife iirc. Which is willpower.

 

[DRW001]

Reading up- yeah, when GER was activated, Diavolo was able to use his Stand still before the loop right?

Depends if you think the Hobo was the first death in which case Diavolo couldn't use his stand or GER killed Diavolo in the muda rush. Trish sensed Diavolo was still alive when he was in the river though which goes against the 2nd option.

 

[TriforcePower1]

What the...?

GER is officially stated to have willpower Manipulation.

That's all. Everything else is headcanon. GER not using it on Diavolo can be simply seen as Giorno wanting the bastard to be fully aware of what would happen. Or maybe he did use willpower Manipulation and that's why Diavolo couldn't move after RtZ, didn't try to erase the time in which GER killed him or didn't use KC in the death loop.

The point is, the scene doesn't disprove GER not having Willpower Manipulation, and there's an official statement of him having it.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yeah if it were that easy to give stuff with statements we'd have Low 2-C All Fiction now.

Just because it's stated doesn't mean it can be accepted. And "lack of contradiction" isn't an argument.

You should know the wiki well enough at this point to know that simple statements don't cut it here most of the time.

 

[TriforcePower1]

False equivalence. I was there when the thread was made. It got rejected not because the statement itself was unreliable, but because it was too vague/not literal/mostly coming from characters who basically worship Kumagawa. Not the case here.

If the statement comes from a reliable source and isn't contradicted, then yes, we use statements.

Everything past Low 2-C is quite literally just statements since you cannot really show higher dimensions or different space-times

 

[Lavcore]

a statement is not enough the best that could get you is a possibly/likely willpower manipulation but NOT straight willpower manip since it was NEVER shown.

also to everyone else using the death loop theory for proof for willpower manip don't , since that's just speculation at that point and can only get you a possibly willpower manip.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yes but as i said that differs. You're taking a guidebook with 0 feats, scans, statements, explanations, mechanics to slap a power on GER as you see fit. You have no proof on "how it works" yet you're still arguing on not only how it works and what it does but even what it means. Risking severely taking the statement out of context.

 

[TriforcePower1]

This is the statement. It doesn't come from a guidebook, it's a page from the manga (last page of "GER part 3" iirc), and it really couldn't be more explicit. How it works is also stated. Just like GER can return to zero actions, he can turn to zero wills as well. It's done via causality Manipulation.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

Thanks DRW, yeah that part was just weird.


Anyway agreeing with Lavore and Fire. Just cause it's listed doesn't mean enough. I really see only a contradiction if Diavolo's will isn't 0 during that attempt to survive

 

[TriforcePower1]

Then GER simply didn't use willpower Manipulation against Diavolo. There's honestly no contradiction.

 

[DRW001]

"Word of God: Often abbreviated as "WOG" or "WoG." Author, or editorial, statements about a certain franchise, and/or its characters. However, take note that if this heavily contradicts, rather than complements, reliable in-story statements or feats, we tend to disregard them."

Since there's no contradiction here, there's no reason to discard it.

Here's the link to the guidebook in case you want it.

https://i.imgur.com/1OOVvEx.jpg

 

[Bedroombedrock]

If willpower manipulation is done through RtZ then Diavolo should've lost all his willpower. If they're connected idk why GER could just remove them from each other. I agree with the op on the note on his profile and removing straight up willpower manipulation.

I feel like we should instead put "possibly willpower manipulation"

 

[Eficiente]

@TP That image you posted has another wording than how GER's stats are linked in its profile, in the latter it says that "actions and will" are returned to 0, the very same thing is said by Giorno in Eyes of Heaven when quoting the same Stand stats so what you posted seems to be mistranslated.

 

[TriforcePower1]

They still mean the same thing. I can say "I can breath fire and fly" or "I can breath fire or fly" (That "or" between the two sentences can also be changed to "and" with effectively 0 difference). In this context, both are identical, so it's most likely just translated in a different way than being a mistranslation. I could honestly rant for a good 15 minutes on how translations are done, but I'll restrain myself.

Point is, it doesn't change. Arguing semantics on translations is stupid anyway.

 

[Eficiente]

And here I thought that elaborating more about my comment was unnecessary and that the point of it was too obvious.

Like in many cases where the "arguing semantics" thing is used, it turns out that an interpretation of the text makes the main proposal accurate, and that what you think about the text is just another interpretation of it just as valid, not at all a fact.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Okay, if you want to argue semantics, that's fine for me as well.


This is the page in Japanese. Now, using Romajidesu I found out that the word used to connect "actions" and "wills" is Òéä (you can see it between those two big kanjis in the third line).

Checking online, everything that I found describes it as a word that "links nouns in an incomplete list" or "implies that there are other items that are not listed after mentioning two nouns". It is used for lists to indicate something like "and things like" according to the last link.

Seeing this, I don't see why GER needs to RtZ both actions and will at the same time. The conjunction is used mostly for lists due to its vague (but still somehow formal) nature, not really to indicate that there are these two distinct things, but more to indicate, well, "things like that". In reference of GER's statement, it could honestly mean both that they all happen at the same time or that only some of the stuff mentioned happens at a specific time, looking at some of the examples.

"Õ¢╝ÒéëÒü»Õ©îµ£øÒéäµà░ÒéüÒü½ÒüñÒüäÒüªÞ¬×ÒüúÒüƒÒÇé" ("They talked of hope and comfort.")

"ÞíÇÒéäÞ¼ÄÒü«õ©¡Òü½Þ║½ÒéÆþ¢«ÒüäÒüƒþÁîÚ¿ôÒü¬ÒéôÒüªÒü¬ÒüäÒéôÒüºÒüÖÒÇé" ("I've never been surrounded by blood or mystery.")

So, yes, both translations are correct, and context is needed to understand. Since Diavolo wasn't affected by will hax, then the second meaning must be the correct one.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Not really triforce. You're entering headcanon here and saying "there is no other explanation". What's your proof to say that by will they don't just mean actions based on will. Example stand powers which are activated simply by wishing it. What's your proof to say that it isn't just referring to resetting those actions.

What's your proof to say it's permanent? What's your proof to say any of the things you say about the will reset?

Exactly you have none, pure headcanon taken as gospel truth from a completely random word in a description.

 

[Zel97]

I was out for 2 days and this happens,i'll contribute later. So far agreeing with triforce,nothing contradicts WOG of ger being able to reset willpower. The reason he didnt use it on diavolo b4 he died was quite obvious,why would you ever incap someone you absolutely despise plus we already know how brutal gio is to his enemies

 

[Bedroombedrock]

If willpower manipulation is done through RtZ then Diavolo should've been affected by it but he wasn't, and I think it's fair to say that assuming GER just has willpower manipulation off a statement that's never shown in a super short chapter shouldn't mean he is 100% percent confirmed to have willpower manipulation. Again,

I feel like instead he should have "Possibly Willpower Manipulation"

 

[Zel97]

He resetted causality in that fight not willpower. Rtz is just an ability to reset things to 0.causality,death and willpower. Gio could use it in that fight but why would he

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I feel like instead he should have "Possibly Willpower Manipulation"

The thing about possibly here is that it literally doesn't change stuff. It all remains the same, as possible abilities are taken as true and usable literally 100% of the time.

Instead i say remove the power and have it as a note "WoG states ger can reset will to 0, however the exact meaning, capabilities, mechanics and all other details are unknown due to lacking context and use of the ability in canon" would be a much better solution.

 

[Bedroombedrock]

If Willpower Manipulation is not done through such an unconventional means as RtZ than he just has standard run of the mill willpower manip which was never shown, so we don't even know how it works. Either Willpower Manip is tied to causality manip or it's not.

 

[Bedroombedrock]

Actually yeah I agree with that phoenixbird, a note in his profile sounds much better

 

[Zel97]

It is done throught rtz.Rtz is not just causality M. Causality is just one of the things it can reset. Heck rtz can even give diavolo a new death everytime he "dies".willpower is just another thing it can reset via rtz

 

[Bedroombedrock]

if it's not connected to his causality manipulation than it's just normal willpower manipulation, which he's never shown so it should be left as a note since we have 0 quantifiable feats for it

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Definitly agree that the will there could definitly mean their actions taken to achieve their will (ex. Random guys will of killing Girono by stabbing him is returned to zero as thee action is undone). Hell, I feel it fits better the idea of the ability, returning the attempts of the enemy to do anything to nothing.


Rtz is just returning the person's death to before it happens, but not before it begins. Like, if living is 0 and dining is 2, then Rtz is just getting an enemy loop back to 0.5, which naturally progresses to 1.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Actually yeah I agree with that phoenixbird, a note in his profile sounds much better

>Phoenixbird

...

Anyway who agrees with my note proposal above?

 

[Bedroombedrock]

Also Giorno doesn't actually have any control over his stand GER so arguments about "Giorno wanted him to suffer" don't make a lot of sense. If GER acts automatically to protect Giorno than he would've reset Diavolo's will to 0 and then killed him but he didn't which makes no sense

 

[Zel97]

A Stand can also represent the manifestation of an individual's innate "fighting spirit" and embodies, to an extent, the individual's psyche.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

I agree with adding a note.

 

[Zel97]

Plus its a requiem stand. Requiem stands generally have one job and that's to fulfill the users wishes.example is polnareff with chariot requiem. The stands job is literally to just to hold onto the arrow. Gio wanted diavolo dead or suffer immensely

 

[DRW001]

Also GER openly recognised giorno as his master so why would he go against his wishes?

 

[Bedroombedrock]

He used RtZ in erased time though

 

[Zel97]

And??? Gio wanted diavolo dead so in order to do that ger needs to counter KC

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I agree with adding a note.

That's 3 agreeing.

 

[Lavcore]

i agree with removing the power and adding the note(obviously) and also GER has a will of it's own.

 

[Lavcore]

oh yeah along with the death loop and RTZ "will" note there should also be a note on diavolo's profile stating:

"it is truly unknown why diavolo did not use his stand in the death loop"

 

[Chariot190]

>disregarding the novel because it aint canon.


Seems you missed the point completely. That novel, despite it's non-canonicity, showcased the will power manip in action. It doesnt matter if it's canon or not, it shos that said power isnt what you think it is, and no offense but no matter how non-canon it is, it is a billion times more reliable than whatever your intepretetion is. Non-canon or not, it shows that the will in the bio is literal, not figuratively like you may think and even if you disagree your intepretation is nothing when compared to official material despite how non-canon it is.

 

[Chariot190]

Dont forget this fyi, says the same thing basically but isnt 1:1.
And, if Diavolo's will not being 0 is being counted as a contradiction, GER itself made Diavolo explicitly aware that he wanted Diavolo to realize the extent of his actions and to suffer greatly, GER itself wanted Diavolo to know that he will never amount to anything.