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GER's Willpower Manip

Does it reduce their will to zero or does it revert them to a moment where they didn't want to do anything? These two interpretations contradict and neither is supported by the text.
 
Yes i disagree with removing willpower M,the main question people had with willpower M isnt if ger actuallu has it but how he does it. Is it done through empathic M or is it done through causality M? Thats the real question
 
What does that mean? How long does it last for? Under what situations is it used in-character?

>how long does it last for

It doesnt last forever, but ger can just constantly reset the opponent's willpower since it has the range to do so. Since both causality M and willpower M are done through rtz,i dont see why time limit is even an issue since ger can just continuously say "lolnope"

>is it used in-character?


We already know gio doesnt hold back punches in a serious fight. The reason he didnt straight up used willpower M against diavolo was because gio wanted him dead not incapped. At worse willpower M would be gio's 2nd move if muda rushes are not enough to bring down his foe
 
Yes i disagree with removing willpower M,the main question people had with willpower M isnt if ger actuallu has it but how he does it. Is it done through empathic M or is it done through causality M? Thats the real question

I think the question of what setting willpower to zero actually means is important. Returning actions to zero means returning them to their start, so does returning willpower to zero mean returning the willpower to what it was before the move that was returned to zero? Or does it mean leaving the character with no willpower whatsoever? Can they gain more willpower, and how would that work?

It doesnt last forever, but ger can just constantly reset the opponent's willpower since it has the range to do so. Since both causality M and willpower M are done through rtz,i dont see why time limit is even an issue since ger can just constantly say "lolnope"

Why do you assume that GER can constantly reset the opponent's willpower, and that there's no limit on it?

Time limit would probably be an issue for any speed equal match or match against infinite speed opponents. Also, if willpower is set to zero, and then it wears off or the character gathers more willpower, then they could act again, which is relevant in matches.

The reason he didnt straight up used willpower M against diavolo was because gio wanted him dead not incapped.

This is headcanon. Why couldn't he kill him and use willpower manip?
 
^

Pretty much, Giorno is GER's general master but GER is still fully sentient and can move and act even when Giorno doesn't order it
 
The first point is as i've said if will M is done through causality M then it doesnt reset willpower directly,its just a result of ger resetting cause and effect. Meaning if ger' will M is done through causality M then it just resets the opponent's will b4 they do any action. If it is done through empathic M then will M is done by ger resetting the opponent's willpower directly. Im not sure which


The 2nd point isnt on me tho. Most ger matches go like

"Incon with ger saying lolnope to him/her for eternity but cant actually kill him/her"

Most ger matches are done with the mindset that ger can just spam causality reset. Since both causality M and willpower M are done through rtz,i dont see why ger cant just constantly reset willpower if he can do so with causality M(this is if we assume ger's willpower M is linked to empathic M)


Your 3rd point i dont understand. Explain pls . All we know is gio wanted diavolo dead period. We already know how brutal giorno is to his enemies(cioccolata being a good example). Why the hell would he want to incap diavolo when he can give diavolo a fate far worse than simply dying
 
First point, fair enough.

Second point, fair enough.

Third point, you said "GER wouldn't use empathic manip there because it wanted Diavolo dead", which doesn't make sense. I think the thing you're missing is, using empathic manip does not make Diavolo unkillable. GER can use Empathic Manip to make the fight faster and easier while still killing Diavolo in the end. Wanting to kill Diavolo is not a good reason to forego Empathic Manip.
 
So you mean ger can just reset diavolo's willpower then kill him correct?

Hmmmmmm im not sure about that one. Probably just giorno's sadistic side.thats the best i can come up with,pretty sure its wrong. I'll wait for chariot or triforce's respond
 
If we're talking about why GER didnt use will power manip on Diavolo, it should be quite obvious, given GER himself spelled it out. He wanted Diavolo not only to suffer but realize the error of his ways, to realize that no matter what happens he will never amounto anything, his actions and evil ways never be comparable to those who gave up everything like Abbachio, and to reflect on that while he goes through the eternal hell that is the death loop and that if he wanted to be hidden from the world so badly, he'll get what he wanted in the worst way possible. And that's coming fro GER, not Giorno, so GER being sentient isnt a factor given that's what he said.
 
because i wanted this thread to get more attention? that's what a bump is for right?
 
But it doens't make sense fo this thread to get bumped

We're talking about something which is easy to grasp but everyone seems to be trying grasping at a bigger straw here when it really doens't

GER reverts willpower back to zero

There's doens't seem to there be a thing easier to grasp
 
um i just wanted to bump the thread i don't see what all that other stuff has to do with it "not making sense" for this thread to get bumped when i wanted the thread to get more attention.
 
What do we need to do here?
 
i think we can agree on this compromise: possibly/likely willpower manipulation for giorno and adding the aforementioned notes to his profile also we should probably replace the picture for willpower manipulation with something more fitting like Azelf who is the embodiment of willpower.

everyone fine with this?
 
That seems fine to me.
 
There's 6 agrees and 8 disagreements, dont get to ahead of yourself there.

I'm fine with a note but to say he likely/possibly has it is false, we know he has it, there is no possibly, we just dont know the exact mechanics of it. A note is fine but possibly having it implies he possibly doesnt have it, which is wrong, we know he has it we just dont know the mechanics of it and the details for canon. But that doesnt mean he doesnt have it, big difference.

Middle ground aint gonna work because the middle ground is wrong.
 
As I've said before, all I care about is getting the note added, I don't care if the power stays, gets a possibly/likely, or is removed.
 
I'm fine with a note specifying we dont know the specifics of it for the canon GER. I disagree with removing it though.
 
I suppose that Chariot's suggestion of simply adding a note, and not adding a "possibly" before the power, should probably be fine.
 
Before we close this I feel like it should be settled,

How does GER's Willpower manip work? is it via RtZ/causality manip, or is it just seperate general willpower/mind manip. I'm asking because it looks like it has to be either one or the other. basically, if it's via RtZ then it's juts a sideeffect of his causality manipulation, but it looks like it's seperate from his causality manip so characters who resist mindhax fairly decently should be able to resist it no? Because i've seen on alot of GER threads people arguing his willpower manip would still work because "of it's unconventional way of willpower manip"
 
Well the issue is we don't know how it works, that's what the note's gonna say.
 
So how do we treat it in a vs thread? Because I know a few matches where people have argued that GER's Willpower manip would still work because it "does it in an unconventional manner" via RtZ when that was never shown
 
It wouldn't be involved in the thread, I guess. That's how we treat other abilities like this from other series. Medaka Kurokami's Precog, Creation, Weather Manip, Weapon Mastery, and Pocket Reality Manipulation are treated this way.
 
Giorno at the moment is even the representative of willpower manip so I higlhy doubt the ability is restriced even if it is featless
 
Giorno will be removed as the representative and replaced with Azelf.

The current note is about the death loop, but another note will be added.

Please read through the thread before commenting, both of these things were explained really recently...
 
I'm willing to update the profile. But the drafted note earlier was:

WoG states ger can reset will to 0, however the exact meaning, capabilities, mechanics and all other details are unknown due to lacking context and use of the ability in cano
But I think this uses terminology that we shouldn't be putting into a profile, so I suggest rewording it to:

There are canon statements that Gold Experience Requiem can reset will to zero, however the exact meaning, capabilities, mechanics and all other details are unknown due to lacking context, and the ability having never been used canonically.
Does this seem fine?

Also, should Giorno be removed from the examples on the Willpower Manipulation page as well, due to the ambiguity around his use of it?
 
I also think that this seems fine.
 
Could the profile be unlocked for editing then?
 
Yes. Tell me here when you are done. (Feel free to tell me when you are ready to become staff. As an administrator you don't have to ask me to unlock pages for you.)
 
I've finished the edit.

Giorno's still on the Willpower Manip page as an example, if we want to remove him from there.

Also, I'm not familiar with Giorno's matches but some of them may need to be removed if we can't ascertain willpower manip's combat applicability any more. Does anyone here know which matches this change affects?
 
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