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GER Upgrades

TriforcePower1

TriforcePower1

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So, this is going to be some neat stuff. Let's start.

Fate Manipulation

What you're seeing is indeed the truth. You're seeing the movements created by your ability, but you'll never arrive at the truth that's going to happen. None who stand before me shall ever get there, regardless of their ability. This is the power of Gold Experience Requiem.
GER at Diavolo

There's not much to discuss here. GER can prevent people from reaching their fate, and changes the future by doing so, as seen when Diavolo predicted his win but got MUDAed.

That moment when you add an another OP ability to GER but it's still hard countered by Acausality

Resistance to Precognition (limited)
Refer to the above. Diavolo couldn't predict GER's return to zero, even though he could predict GER's moves. As such, "Resistance to Precognition with Return to Zero" should be reasonable.

Return to Zero upgrade
Okay, to start things off, this is based upon GER activating Return to Zero in Diavolo's erased time. So, in order to understand which abilities are needed to do something like that, we first need to list off what Time Erasure does in particular to people (other than erasing time).

First off, trails that show the movements of things are created, though this is irrelevant as GER didn't "resist" the trails. Secondly, people in Erased Time don't realize they're in erased time, and they're forced to follow Fate and are incapable of reacting to Diavolo, as he can ignore Fate for as long as he remains in time erase. Lastly, Diavolo himself is immune to everything that happened in Time Erase.

GER could still activate (or better, RtZ activated itself as GER wasn't conscious) in response to Diavolo's attack, even though Diavolo wasn't fated to attack GER in that specific moment, as he's immune to Fate in time erasure, and, by consequence, RtZ was fated to NOT get activated, but it got activated regardless. This is resistance to Fate Manipulation.

GER's Return to Zero should go back at being Automatic and not thought based, as GER clearly wasn't conscious in Diavolo's erased time, as he got his time erased and couldn't react to Diavolo.

Lastly, and this is the most important point, in order to resist Fate and activate RtZ, GER needed to exist duh.

Follow me. Imagine a line. A timeline, to be exact. What King Crimson does is erasing a small piece of this line. As a natural consequence, what is inside that line would also get erased as well. This can also be visualized as a person going from point A to point C passing through point B. Now, let's assume King Crimson erased the time said person went from point A to C. What happened to the personin point B? He doesn't exist anymore, he never was in point B.

GER got erased (this is made obvious by the trails and GER's incapability to react to Diavolo), but despite that he could still Revert to Zero Diavolo, even if GER wasn't even existing at the time. In other words, Return to Zero can activate even if GER and Giorno were erased.

People say that the reason GER is so strong is because it needed to defeat Diavolo. I like to say that the reason GER is so strong is because it defeated Diavolo.
 
For now I'm still going to consider it as infinite as RtZ could still react to Diavolo despite GER having no time.
 
One can resume GER's powers to be Causality Manipulation and Negation. As for it having infinite speed, I would say no, time its erased no stopped, during that time the blood was still leaking for Polnareff, its just that people its not being aware.
 
There is a lot here that was rejected before and will be rejected again, but I'm going to wait for more users to agree on this first to not have them after the reasons for it are brought.
 
That is mostly correct (and I'm happy to see it), GER having resistance to precognition is as legit as someone having resistance to fire manip via healing himself from getting burned. The fate manip is just causality manip as GER isn't manipulating fate but preventing it from happening by manipulating the causes that generate it. It absolutely can seem like fate manip in the surface, but it's not, and everyone can just go trying to add causality manip to every fate manip users if they feel like it, what matters is context.

The last part is stuff that would go for Diavolo too but he doesn't have. Time Erase isn't fate manip, it erases a timeframe and the parts between them connect, what happens in the timeframe that's erased is not people being forced to do stuff via fate manip, if it was Diavolo being able to move them would give him fate manip, on top of having via the Time Erase itself too. In a way, time does happen in the time erase, and what comes after is nothing but the present. It is absolutely a cause & effect thing, not fate.

GER's Return to Zero is definitely automatic, it literally said that it targets by having others standing in front of itself.

GER and Giorno weren't erased, the way "time" is portrayed in Diavolo's power is for cause & effect; GER and Giorno's causes of everything they do is what was erased. That idea was erased, they are still there physically, which is why Diavolo can physically move things within erased time.
 
Isn't like Precog is power that can be resisted, as its some type of Information Analysis by looking into the future, so yeah, in order to prevent it one need to be acausal or having control over probability, fate or causality (abilities that share several principles).

By the way, I agree with what Eficiente said.
 
@Efi

Fate Manipulation, in fact, is a subset of Causality Manipulation, so technically you're not wrong, but adding Fate Manipulation gives a more defined idea of how GER can use his Causality Manipulation. And the reason it would be resistance to precognition is that Epitaph was still showing the future in which Diavolo won even after GER activated Return to Zero.

Except, Diavolo has like, never shown the ability to move stuff in erased time? And Diavolo explicitly says that "within King Crimson's ability, this world's time disappears" in his fight against Bruno, so no, time doesn't exist in King Crimson's erased time.

At least we can agree with something.

Again, show a single instance in which it's clearly shown that Diavolo can move objects in erased time. Because Aerosmith's projectiles going through Diavolo in Erased time clearly contradicts the fact that stuff is still "physical" in Erased Time.
 
I'm aware, it's a wrong idea for the sake of trying to add more powers. GER targets the causes that make fate happen, not fate itself. What do you think it would happen without the supposed "resistance to precognition"? Diavolo had his will denied and his body immobilized.

I showed many times where he did before and will do so again, he moved Trish to kidnap her within erased time after quickly cutting her hand without erase time, same with how he replaced his hand that that of the fortune teller that was grabbing his hand, or how the killed Narancia Ghirga and how he moved himself and his stuff after being "caught by surprise" by that cleaning worker. Diavolo's own time is still present as stated by himself in his final time erase and talks about seconds happening, in that way "time does happen in the time erase", not literally.

The shown above and the sticking blood in his targets being something used twice, that last thing should be more than enough. Aerosmith's projectiles going through Diavolo in erased time wasn't 'cuz they aren't physical, as said before "the way "time" is portrayed in Diavolo's power is for cause & effect". Aerosmith's projectiles have no cause as it was erased, but they are still there and Diavolo could move them and put his blood or something in them if he feels like it.

Also can this be the thread where we downgrade its Infinite speed to "MFTL combat speed, Infinite via Ruturn to Zero", please?
 
I would avoid the infinite speed in any part tho, as you quoted, time does happen in erased time, so, GER just have an ability that allows it to take actions in erased time. Take the opening for example, blood it still dropping normally in time erased.
 
Well, giving context (GER's super arrogant and hyperbolic statement about how no matter what ability one may have its power will still work) it looks like GER is doing that part of its thing out of pure power, not some resistance. Again, it only moved and talked after using the Rt0.

Diavolo says that he alone can move within erase time, so his blood doing it as well shouldn't be surprising.

But in that part in particular I would appreciate more opinions from the most amount of admins possible.
 
Yeah, I agree with Eficiente. It just seems we are adding powers to GER that kinda already fall into causality manipulation.

Also GER downgrades when?
 
If GER didn't resist Precog, once he used RtZ, Diavolo should have seen himself getting MUDAed instead of seeing himself winning.

And yet, we never see Diavolo explicitly doing it. Most of the times it can be explained by Diavolo using the confusion Time Erases creates or by King Crimson still being a FTL stand. If Diavolo could move stuff in erased time we would have seen it at least once. Diavolo talking about seconds in his time erase is obviously meant from Diavolo's perspective. Using this same kind of reasoning, Time isn't really stopped by The World because Dio constantly counts the amount of seconds before the time stop ends.

Diavolo launching blood at his opponents is because it's a part of Diavolo till it separates from his body. Once it separates, it loses its time and sticks with the erased people or objects. Araki constantly shows how blood that's outside of the body isn't a part of it anymore with Gold Experience and especially Crazy Diamond.
 
King Crimson would not have seen himself get mudastomped because rtz made it so the event of diavolo using his 10 second precognition and other events have their cause erased.

Also, time is relative. The World stops time completely. It doesn't move, at all for a few seconds. The same is with KFC where time is erased for 10 seconds.
 
TriforcePower1 said:
If GER didn't resist Precog, once he used RtZ, Diavolo should have seen himself getting MUDAed instead of seeing himself winning.
And yet, we never see Diavolo explicitly doing it. Most of the times it can be explained by Diavolo using the confusion Time Erases creates or by King Crimson still being a FTL stand. If Diavolo could move stuff in erased time we would have seen it at least once. Diavolo talking about seconds in his time erase is obviously meant from Diavolo's perspective. Using this same kind of reasoning, Time isn't really stopped by The World because Dio constantly counts the amount of seconds before the time stop ends.

Diavolo launching blood at his opponents is because it's a part of Diavolo till it separates from his body. Once it separates, it loses its time and sticks with the erased people or objects. Araki constantly shows how blood that's outside of the body isn't a part of it anymore with Gold Experience and especially Crazy Diamond.
Click to expand...
How can he see the future with when being a statue, only in the anime he could move.

Sorry but that's nitpicking, "the confusion Time Erases creates" leave no room to what's happening within it (which is pretty clear) and King Crimson being a FTL stand means little to the group of comparable people. The other part doesn't realy matter as that's what I said, Diavolo's perspective is still the present, seeing the present and past, but not the future.

"sticks with the erased" something kinda kills your point of that something not being physical, can we drop that headcanon?
 
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He checked the future in the manga, too.

Okay then, let's assume for a second he can move things in erased time. Then why we never, and I say NEVER, saw him actually moving objects in erased time from Diavolo's perspective? All of your examples don't show him doing it, you're just assuming he can do it.

His blood's time gets erased, becomes an erased object like everything in erased time. It doesn't really "stick" per say, as neither Giorno nor GER were affected by it. Also >Drop the headcanon >Says King Crimson can move stuff in erased time

Pick one.
 
Yes, it's the same vision he had before. How can he get it there when he's meant to get it afterwards, when approaching Giorno. Added to the fact that the stuff in his hair is also some visual thing for us to see the same and he has seen the future without it.

'Cuz it's the most reasonable assumption given the context.

That would add the assumption that now detached parts of his body would have their time erased too and KC doesn't just erase time once when starting to use his power, which is just nice. If you think that "this character moved this things in this or that point of time" is the same as "this character has this power no one ever mensioned" is remotely comparable then here we have a more fundamental problem.
 
I think we're kinda straying from the main point. The reason GER should have resistance to precognition is because Diavolo saw himself winning instead of everything just reversing.

The most reasonable assumption is "there's not enough information to say something decisively", not that King Crimson can move objects in erased time.

Diavolo erases everything's time except his own, so if blood goes out of his body, it's not Diavolo so it gets its time erased. It's not something new as we have seen more than once that in the JoJo universe blood isn't a part of a person's body anymore once it gets out. This isn't much different than Dio's knives, that get thrown by Dio but then stop in frozen time. This is no different. Things being nonexistent is just a natural and logical conclusion from King Crimson's erasing time, supported by Aerosmith's bullets going through Diavolo, while Diavolo moving stuff is unsupported and contradicted by him never doing it when we see what happens in the time erasure.
 
I don't think there is much to do beyond saying the same again, so time to wait for more concrete input. (Preferably not users just going "I agree with everything" without showing to be aware with the opposition plz)
 
remember when it was stablished that Diavolo couldn't attack when Time was erased

but he does it anyway

btw Fate Manipulation seems fine imo
 
Now this just proves my point. Diavolo wasn't even stated that he couldn't attack with erased time, not once. And he never did so, it just kinda looked like he was going to do it the last 2 times but the erase time could have stop before it. 'Cuz you know, he was just a moment faster than GER as he stated, he can't be faster than someone who can't even move.
 
Not really. Between the moment the timeskip happened and the moment the gang discovered Narancia's dead body Diavolo had all the time of the world to kill him.
 
Added to what TP said, no one is really meant to notice the times Time Erase is used, they do so due to plot and require some method to properly do it when serious. Meaning that Diavolo could have use his power as many times as he needed (pretty much 2).
 
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