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GER Upgrades

Not really though. It just meant that it was indeed the result if things kept going the way they kept going. Epithat can't see time retroactively, it doesn't know stuff is gonna chance because "CAUSALITY" which is the whole point.

And since Jojo works on fate, it was Fate for that to happen if they actually reached said future, which they never did as Return to Zero wouldn't allow it.
 
Epitaph shows the future, it litterally shows what is happening in the future, if Diavolo wasnt going to reach Giorno then Epitaph wouldnt be showing him litterally what is transpiring in the future, it would show him not doing anything and retroactively? Yes actually, because after RTZ Diavolo was put prior to when he initially checked Epitaph. The first time he checked Epitaph never happened it was lol noped, the action of him checking Epitaph the first time no onger existed and it was showing the same screen it had despite now Diavolo being put prior in time to when he checked first. There aint no retroactive anything going here, the first future screen never happened and the second chronologically happened prior.
 
Chariot190 said:
>take the opening

Only if we can take other anime only feats like the handful of tier 7 feats that'd scale to like every character worth a damn.

Or opening feats for other characters, Purple Haze and it's giant explosion of purple haze virus would be cool as shit.
Click to expand...
what tier 7 feats are there in the anime
 
late to the party but i agree with this doe idk on the cuz its erased yet still fine but i think the additions seem legit
 
Thelastmlg said:
Chariot190 said:
>take the opening

Only if we can take other anime only feats like the handful of tier 7 feats that'd scale to like every character worth a damn.

Or opening feats for other characters, Purple Haze and it's giant explosion of purple haze virus would be cool as shit.
Click to expand...
what tier 7 feats are there in the anime
Click to expand...
A shit ton, Kars tanking a volcanic eruption that isnt due to the aja, dio splitting clouds, a ke feat with projectiles moving at relavistic speeds, etc. Plus such fun anime only statements like Epitaph showing Diavolo dozens of seconds ahead,etc.
 
Chariot190 said:
Thelastmlg said:
Chariot190 said:
>take the opening

Only if we can take other anime only feats like the handful of tier 7 feats that'd scale to like every character worth a damn.

Or opening feats for other characters, Purple Haze and it's giant explosion of purple haze virus would be cool as shit.
Click to expand...
what tier 7 feats are there in the anime
Click to expand...
A shit ton, Kars tanking a volcanic eruption that isnt due to the aja, dio splitting clouds, a ke feat with projectiles moving at relavistic speeds, etc. Plus such fun anime only statements like Epitaph showing Diavolo dozens of seconds ahead,etc.
Click to expand...
splitting clouds is tier 7? i only remember spike (mlp) doing that and getting 8-A from it? is there a calc?

also what relativistic projectiles are you refering to?
 
Chariot190 said:
Epitaph shows the future, it litterally shows what is happening in the future, if Diavolo wasnt going to reach Giorno then Epitaph wouldnt be showing him litterally what is transpiring in the future, it would show him not doing anything and retroactively? Yes actually, because after RTZ Diavolo was put prior to when he initially checked Epitaph. The first time he checked Epitaph never happened it was lol noped, the action of him checking Epitaph the first time no onger existed and it was showing the same screen it had despite now Diavolo being put prior in time to when he checked first. There aint no retroactive anything going here, the first future screen never happened and the second chronologically happened prior.
Click to expand...
Did you actually read what I said? Jojo has the concept of fate, things happen at a certain time a certain why as directed by fate. This is the whole reason of the continuous and endless repeat of Bites The Dust even when things go slightly off course.

It doesn't matter when Diavolo used his future seeing, because the future - if Diavolo could reach it, which he didn't - was for his victory. The first time, the second time, it would still come in due time as directed by fate. But as GER himself says, it was never gonna let him reach the truth, the time for such would never come to pass because CAUSALITY. Again, Epithat isn't retroactive, its not gonna change what it sees in the future since Fate hasn't really changed, what would have brought up that fate has. Just as Josuke was still destined to explode in due time - Fate wasn't changed until Kira had died, because Josuke and everyone else would STILL die when the time for it came, Fate was the same and would lead to the same result.
 
Diavolo litterally double checks Epitaph, reiterates that it's still showing him winning despite GER reversing everything, and then it still didnt happen. Ignoring the fact that implies it is retroactive otherwise Diavolo wouldnt of double checked somewhat expecting a different vision then only for him to go ah cool it didnt change, meaning it can change.

Not only that but Epitaph is stated no less than ten times including in that very chapter that it's showing the future, it isnt showing what's fated to happen in the way youre describing it does. Things being fated to happen is a thing, but that aint gonna magically take away from the fact Epitaph very clearly shows things that are happening in the future, if something wasnt going to happen it'd show it not happening, it litterally shows what is happening in the future not what's fated to happen and that's why your point is invalid. It doesnt matter if something is fated to happen or not fated to happen, Epitaph would show Diavolo him getting his face caved in because that's what was happening in the future, you're misintippreting how Epitaph actually functions, and I'm not sure how, because it's stated a metric shit ton of times how it actually shows things and just because Part 5 has fate undertones and jojo has a concept of fate doesnt mean Epitaph works like that if it's stated to work completely differently than how you're potraying it. if i had a dollar for each time it stated it was showing the future, and looking at what is happening in __ seconds from now, and future this and future that, etc id have enough money to buy myself dinner. Opposed to like? Well I cant actually think of any time it was stated to show fated actions, his time erase does that via trails but Epitaph most certainly aint got nothing to do with fate. Now I repeated myself a bit but I cant stress that enough.

But I feel as if you didnt read what I said. Epitaph shows the future, even if it shows fated actions (it does but it doesnt do via fated precog), it first and foremost shows what is transpiring in the future, and that takes preceedence because that's how it's described from start to end, even enforces it's the future in that very chapter. Epitaph wouldnt even need to retroactively show the new future because the first time Diavolo checked it never happened, the following times happened after GER's bullshit, which is also coincidentally before Diavolo ever checked. So like, unless Epitaph has some sort of pseudo-acausality because it's actions werent reversed along with litterally everything else in the universe, your point has a bit of a hole in it.

Even if Diavolo is never fated to arrive at the future he saw, it should by all accounts show him the new future after everything reversed.

And even then, that's resistance to fate-based precog going by your definition, cause or effect manip or not.
 
Why would Diavolo think or know its retroactive (if it even is) when everything he sees in Epithat always happens and we have nothing to imply the opposite has happened once before GER?

I feel like I am speaking chinese and you are just trying not to understand me. Epithat sees the future, yes, I never said the opposite and I'd like you to show me where I did if I did so I know I goofed up. I was explaining from the start that the JOJO WORLD, not Epithat, has that Fate quality. Is why Bites the Dust activates when it proviously did even if it hasn't activated in the conventional way. Is why the new universe and eternal resurgence from Made in Heaven is a thing. What Diavolo sees is not set because that's Epithat's power, its set because that's how the Jojo world works until something, like GER, uses silly powers to give the outcome a middle finger. Just like Josuke is gonna die in 10 seconds if he's 10 seconds away from when he died the first time Bites The Dust activated, and this is an undeniable fact UNTIL the cause of this, Kira, is stopped. Repeat yourself all you like, its on you if you don't wanna understand it.

Its not really resistance if fate is set until the cause of that fate is kicked in the dick. Like, I would like literally a single example of Diavolo at any point like, ever, seeing any of his predictions change in anyway. Just see what Eficiente is explaining about eliminating the causes of fate rather than fate itself. "The fate manip is just causality manip as GER isn't manipulating fate but preventing it from happening by manipulating the causes that generate it."

If we therefore assume the cause of Fate, Diavolo as he's the one that murks Giorno, isn't dead, why would the future change? It just hasn't happened, as it'll keep being turned back, and the fact GER turns it back in the first place would imply Diavolo can actually succeed in the first place, otherwise there'd be no need.
 
>Why would Diavolo think or know its retroactive (if it even is) when everything he sees in Epithat always happens and we have nothing to imply the opposite has happened once before GER?

Because that's what he says and he knows how his own Stand works. If he thinks the visions can change depending what happens, that's exactly how it works.

>I feel like I am speaking chinese and you are just trying not to understand me.

I understand what youre trying to say, youre just wrong is all.

>Epithat sees the future, yes, I never said the opposite and I'd like you to show me where I did if I did so I know I goofed up.

The very fact youre trying to go lol fate is evidence enough of that.

>I was explaining from the start that the JOJO WORLD, not Epithat,

I know, exactly, Epitaph doesnt have that quality. So you point is invalid.

>has that Fate quality. Is why Bites the Dust activates when it proviously did even if it hasn't activated in the conventional way. Is why the new universe and eternal resurgence from Made in Heaven is a thing.

Those dont work anything like Epitaph though, that's a grade A example of a false analogy, those work like Time Erase in concept but not Epitaph.

>What Diavolo sees is not set because that's Epithat's power, its set because that's how the Jojo world works until something

And that's your headcannon, ignoring the fact that is litterally its power, it gets those screens not by how jojo's universe works but by just taking a look at the future. It aint going this is fated to happen so this screen is will what happe, its going this is what's happening in the future so this is will what happe. It has shit all to do with fate and it's effects on the jojoverse, it is litterally looking at what is transpiring in the future. And that's why what you're saying is wrong.

>like GER, uses silly powers to give the outcome a middle finger. Just like Josuke is gonna die in 10 seconds if he's 10 seconds away from when he died the first time Bites The Dust activated, and this is an undeniable fact UNTIL the cause of this, Kira, is stopped. Repeat yourself all you like, its on you if you don't wanna understand it.

Yeah he can, and he did, but the issue is that GER only negated Diavolo's time erase, then his death. Diavolo heavily implies that Epitaph is retroactive (ignoring the fact it wouldnt be retroactive because the first time he seen the screen was chronologically after the the following visions of epitaph, ie before GER negged his time erase. So the argument of Epitaph not being retroactive aint gonna cut it because the first screen happened after the following and made so it never happened anyway). BTD aint even remotely similar to this situation. BTD and Kira were the cause of those fated actions, not anything else, it's litterally why deactivating BTD makes it so fated actions ceased to be fated. BTD works and utilizes fate, Epitaph doesnt. MIH is an example of universal fate but that means nothing because of how Epitaph functions.


>Its not really resistance if fate is set until the cause of that fate is kicked in the dick. Like, I would like literally a single example of Diavolo at any point like, ever, seeing any of his predictions change in anyway. Just see what Eficiente is explaining about eliminating the causes of fate rather than fate itself. "The fate manip is just causality manip as GER isn't manipulating fate but preventing it from happening by manipulating the causes that generate it."

You'd be right if that's all there was to it. Depending on what you are actually asking my answer to that is Metallica or it doesnt matter, Diavolo would know what his stand can do and what he can expect from it, the fact it would need to change because the first viewing of it never happened and you dont seem to actually understand what Epitaph does. It aint looking at fated actions, it's looking at what is happening in the future, things being fated or not dont actually effect that because it's not what should happen it's what is happening meaning it already happened for it to even be visible in Epitaph's screen. If I worded it like, it's the past looking at the present would that help you to better understand? Epitaph looks at the future, it gets its visions by looking at what is happening in the future, that isnt effected by fate because if it were to be effected by fate, it wouldnt show what shouldve happened, it would show what did happen.

>If we therefore assume the cause of Fate, Diavolo as he's the one that murks Giorno, isn't dead, why would the future change?

Because he is dead, that's why (also because he seems to think epitaphs visions can change)

>It just hasn't happened, as it'll keep being turned back, and the fact GER turns it back in the first place would imply Diavolo can actually succeed in the first place, otherwise there'd be no need.

Except the thing with that is, GER only turned back his time erase, his death and nothing else. And Epitaph was still like nah diavolo ya got it before, during, after and even while dying. And if it wasnt gonna happen, Epitaph wouldnt of shown it happening because it cant show what isnt there, and if GER changed the future, it'd show the new future because that's simply how it functions. It cant look at a future that no longer exists, it has to look at the future that happened.
 
I would still like to see any serious admin going over the points said before in this messy thread.
 
Hmm these points seem pretty nitpicky.

  • Fate manip
Just no. Simplified GER just rewinds things. It obviously stops people from reaching their fate cus "they can't get to that point without being rewinded back". GER is not affecting fate. The fate stays the same, ger is just pushing you back so that you don't reach it. Let's imagine fate as a rope with a knot at the end (symbolizing the fate they are gonna reach), people try to climb the rope. Ger just kicks them back to the ground, the rope isn't getting affected at all here.

  • Resistance to precog
Nah. It's not resisting. As i said above. the fate and future remain the same, so rewinding doesn't really change anything in fate, that's why Diavolo could still see himself winning even after 0 reset, cus "without the 0 reset" he would have won, fate hadn't changed, he was just being kicked back.

  • Last point
Is that like saying "GER can reset if he doesn't exist" or am i missunderstanding it? Cus i mean ...what? Diavolo erases time, not people. GER doesn't get erased, time does. The actions and people go from A to C, the "actions" of B get skipped in a sense, not the people.

I feel like i missunderstood that last part doe, correct me if im wrong.
 
Except that Diavolo lost. If it were like you said, he would be trapped in an infinite loop trying to still punch Giorno failing to do it. GER prevented Diavolo from reaching his destiny of defeating Giorno by making it so that Giorno won.

"cus "without the 0 reset" he would have won". Exactly. Any other Precog user that would see them winning over Giorno would receive the Diavolo treatment. That's what resistance to precog is.

Imagine a line, then cut a small piece if it and throw it into the beam, and stick back the two lines. Whatever was in the piece of that line that you threw in the bin was thrown into the bin. That's basically it. Diavolo erases a segment of time, what was in that segment of time got erased as well. An another way if seeing it is to imagine time as the fourth dimension (like it actually is), and comparing it to other dimensions. Imagine a cube with the side of 10cm in a Cartesian space. Now, erase the segment of height between 3 and 4cm in the Cartesian space. A piece of the cube would also get erased as a consequence, and its height would be less. Whatever was in that space of height between 3 and 4 cm would get erased. I can provide more examples, but I think these were enough.
 
  • He did not do that by manipulating fate. Causality and fate are linked. If you mess with causality it's possible to change fate by natural result. It's still not manipulating fate, cus he's not. Fate will change by virtue of him making another move. Example if i see that my fate is to move forward, then i reset time erasure, and i move to the left, then i have changed my fate and therefore my future.
  • Diavolo's precog doesn't precog thoughts was my point. It precogs actions. 0R is a thought based process that rewinds time. And as i said above "fate doesn't change" when time is reset, it changes after he makes an action. So basically the fate stays the same, but since he cannot precog GER's thoughts of 0resetting he doesn't know it'll happen. Cus as i said, 0 reset is not an action and diavolo can only precog actions.
  • I see the logic now. So when Diavolo uses time erasure, the time of the world is erased, that means of everyone in the world. Therefore everyone is erased, so outside of Diavolo no one in Jojo-verse exists anymore. Yes yes i see now. Galaxy brain time. Dude it erases time and therefore actions, NOT people.
 
TriforcePower1 said:
Except that Diavolo lost. If it were like you said, he would be trapped in an infinite loop trying to still punch Giorno failing to do it. GER prevented Diavolo from reaching his destiny of defeating Giorno by making it so that Giorno won.
Imagine a line, then cut a small piece if it and throw it into the beam, and stick back the two lines. Whatever was in the piece of that line that you threw in the bin was thrown into the bin. That's basically it. Diavolo erases a segment of time, what was in that segment of time got erased as well. An another way if seeing it is to imagine time as the fourth dimension (like it actually is), and comparing it to other dimensions. Imagine a cube with the side of 10cm in a Cartesian space. Now, erase the segment of height between 3 and 4cm in the Cartesian space. A piece of the cube would also get erased as a consequence, and its height would be less. Whatever was in that space of height between 3 and 4 cm would get erased. I can provide more examples, but I think these were enough.
Click to expand...
"GER prevented Diavolo from reaching his destiny of defeating Giorno by making it so that Giorno wo" This is misleading as f*ct, GER isn't doing anything to fate, only stuff in the present which thus change fate.The other stuff makes no sense.

Here's a more accurate metaphor. Imagine countless lines, one from each concept, Diavolo cuts only a part of the concept of time, not any other line. There. No need to give him any make up powers beyond the effects this causes in verse, such as people no remembering stuff and causality hax. Diavolo "isn't cutting the line of physicality/tangeability/whatever".

I still disagree with the part in the middle I didn't quote for the reasons I gave above.
 
Epitaph was unable to show GER being born, istead, it showed Giorno being rejected by the arrow

does this count as what?
 
You cannot exactly erase time and expect mostly everything else to be unaffected. To make a more "JoJo-esque" example, The Hand can erase space. "A Stand that erases space and teleports objects. That could have been really dangerous... if this guy wasn't such a dumbass. JOSUKE ABOUT OKUYASU'S THE HAND, CHAPTER 275"

And when he erases space, what's inside that space gets erased as well, because it was in the space that was erased. King Crimson works like that. It erases time, and everything that was in that time was erased. That's why they phase through Diavolo, why they don't remember anything etc.
 
Erasing time is the same as erasing space yes yes I agree there it is totally the same. Objects have three 3 space dimensions they don't have a time 1. Erasing time erases every action in between there, not people.

And again big brain, no one in the world exists cus they were erased when diavolo erased time. Like dude we clearly see it being proven wrong and you're arguing that erasing 10 sec of time erases things from the entirety of time so...
 
@TP Legit every part of that is wrong and for a number of reasons. No one is expecting "mostly everything else to be unaffected", which is where the people no remembering stuff and causality hax come from, even then, yes you can expect everything else to be unaffected, not doing so and making up powers is a headcanon. The Hand has nothing to do with this, Vanilla Ice's Stand does something like that yet its powers are its own thing, using other stuff as a way to say that KC has to have more powers is dumb. And even then, The Hand was said to erase space & time and has context for its stuff.

The space isn't as erase as time, and was never said to be erased too. From what we see it is deconstructed and blown away, but guess what, the people isn't and that's just a cool visual anyway. The last 2 sentences are just headcanons that are just answered by KC's powers, no need to make up new ones out of nothing.
 
Comparison=/=Same

Yes, actions get erased with King Crimson's erased time. Now, care to explain how? Because I can tell you the answer right now: the people/thing doing said action cannot do it anymore.

Ehm... that's kinda it. During time erasure, Diavolo's the only person that exists, as he's the only guy whose time didn't get erased.

"we clearly see it being proven wrong" Show me then.

"erasing 10 sec of time erases things from the entirety of time" ...what? Don't twist my words. People and objects are only erased in that segment of time.
 
Anyway, I'm tired of this useless discussion. If people cannot make the logic jump from "I throw a box in the bin" to "I've also thrown what was in the box in the bin" that's not my problem. I'll just ask other staff members to comment here.
 
Eficiente said:
TriforcePower1 said:
Yes, actions get erased with King Crimson's erased time. Now, care to explain how?
Click to expand...
Simple and elegant; Causality Manipulation. That is all. Should he erase people he wouldn't even have that, which is not how his powers work.
Click to expand...
Efficiente I swear to god if you're actually trying to say King Crimson isnt time erase but rather solely c&e manip, any and all validity you'd ever have would be instantly thrown out the window.

Please tell me I'm misintepreting you.
 
Yeah, and the time manip in question is time erasure. That much cant be argued, at all, if one were to argue that I wouldnt even know how to respond other then laugh and ignore said person. Because cleary that person is incapable of reading, otherwise they wouldn't even be saying that in the first place.
 
Pretty much, yes. It was in the comment quoted, that was just aimed to "care to explain how [actions get erased with King Crimson's erased time]?", I wasn't saying KC doesn't erase time. If anything, the causality hax comes as a result of the time hax, same with space manip and people not remembering stuff. Erasing time is the main thing.
 
Eficiente said:
Pretty much, yes. It was in the comment quoted, that was just aimed to "care to explain how [actions get erased with King Crimson's erased time]?", I wasn't saying KC doesn't erase time. If anything, the causality hax comes as a result the time hax, same with space manip and people not remembering stuff. Time erase is the main thing.
Click to expand...
Good, at laest I dont have to go gather a shit ton of scans proving that time no longer exists. As well as having to explain that nothing other than King Crimson actually moves in erased time. He says as much the first time he uses it, all the things that are actually moving arent moving, it's trails dictating the actions that will happe. Nothing is actually moving, despite how it seems in the anime, hell blood dripping in erased time is anime only scene.
 
On another note. GER probably does have fate manip, but not for the reasons listed here, but for making it so that Diavolo is guranteed to die regardless of where, when and how.
 
Well, I disagree with it given how unexplored it is. It could be any power(s), like Probability Manipulation. And it is only back up by the Stand description which doesn't say anything worth that power.
 
Well cool, then it's probability manipulation and some pretty good probability manip at that seeing as it's guranteed to happen for eternity nonstop.

Just because you arent sure what something is, doesnt mean it aint something. You cant go and say im not sure what it is so we cant add anything for it, because by virtue of that, the profile is automatically inaccurate and outdated because we know he has some sort of power that isnt listed, we just dont know what it falls under exactly. Point is, even if we dont know what it is, it still is something.

But seeing as GER is supposed to represent the conquering of fate itself, and GER is very clearly talking about fate in context, you figure out the rest.
 
Actually, you cant just disagree because you arent sure with what it is. And yes welcome to characters that have litterally only one appearance then go ghost never to be seen again. It makes figuring out what actually happened an issue but that doesnt mean we dont know something happened.

GER has powers that arent on his profile, that much we can be assured of, whether or not those powers originate from his main power or not is not of importance. If one can control air, but by doing so can cause the friction in the air to increase making things combust, that's still fire manipulation, only done through a different power.
 
Dude, I'm not disagree on adding that GER can do that part of its power, I'm disagreeing on stating as a fact that a character can do something we all don't know what it is, the correct way to act here is to inform it can do that and mention which powers it could be. This being; Probability Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, Causality Manipulation (The most likely in my opinion, but that doesn't matter), or GER's powers automatically messing with its realm to do that without any durability ignoring hax, after all the target has its willpower nulled so in the practice it will always have to die.
 
I can agree on that front, we dont know what exactly it could be (even though everything points to it being fate manipulation, and causality manipulation is actually wrong in this case, or at least in the manner GER uses it so that's a no go, at least for this specifiv attribute, but that'd matter little all things considered) Although seeing as GER is talking about afte in context, GER is supposed to represent overcoming fate, and Part 5 is about fate, and Diavolo's death is supposed to be about him never reaching his fate, I dont know why you're having trouble figuring out what type of power was actually in play.

I'd also like to point out that GER's power isnt causality manipulation, it's just something he can do with his main power. In the same vain he can manipulate someone's fate. Dont forget that him being able to do c&e manip doesnt mean he cant do other things. And he's shown to do other things.

As for pocket reality manipulation, that isnt even implied or hinted at, in anything, ever, like, I cant even think of noncanon things where that's implied, hinted at or stated, not even in interviews with Araki. Why are you bringing up much less likely alternatives to something that's supported by more than just a simple guess? Especially when fate manipulation, at least to some extent is supported by not only what GER says, what GER means, what GER is, what happens to Diavolo in the end, what happens to Diavolo is supposed to mean and Part 5 as a whole. Let's be real here Eficiente. Everything but it being written on a piece of paper and shoved down your throat is done to imply that he has at least some goverment over fate. And we dont always need a super in depth explanation to go yeah, a character can do that.
 
> after all the target has its willpower nulled so in the practice it will always have to die.

Yes, unfortunatly that didnt happen to Diavolo in question, and that's also not how that works at all? Having will power nulled doesnt mean youre going to be killed 100% guranteed by something out of your control, especially when Diavolo doesnt want that to happen so it aint because of him.

And are you screwing with me? Diavolo himself deduces that it's happening because of GER, not reality (seconds before being smashed by a car), and we know it's happening because of GER's powers, not the universe. If youre gonna bring up alternatives, do so with something that isnt denied by the source material.
 
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