TimeTrapperFanBoy
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Elizio didn’t ignore your argument, he literally said that only Hypertime encompasses the Multiversity map.
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General DC Comics Discussion Thread
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I didn't disagree with that. However he said that Planetime and Cubetime were beyond the map, something that not only isn't built up by anything, has things against it.
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No, I didn't say that and I didn't ignore your argument. You're mixing things up, I just said that Hypertime encompasses the map and not line time or plane time encompasses the map.
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Alright then, I apologise.
Why are Cubetime and Planetime listed as being beyond the Multiversity map when they are clearly layered timelines.
TimeTrapperFanBoy
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Where do you see that?
I don’t see anything in the cosmology blog that aligns to this, besides Hypertime as a whole encompassing the multiverse.
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No problem at all!
To answer your question, it is Hypertime which is beyond the map since it is half of the Divine Continuum. Line time, plane time and cube time are time-based layers or dimensions that constitute Hypertime according to Morrison, which is why he described Hypertime as a three-dimensional concept.Line time refers to a linear timeline = 1 time dimension, plane time as a "two-dimensional" plane encompassing all line times = two time dimensions, and cube time as the perpendicular of plane time = 3 time dimensions.
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IdiosyncraticLawyer
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Typing this already-rejected complaint up in big font doesn't make it any more valid.
I would hardly say so; Ultima already proved extensively that Marvel's cosmology doesn't need to be split, besides Jim Starlin's canon, which he already split but hasn't made profiles for yet.
TimeTrapperFanBoy
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Aside from cosmology stuff, did anyone called dibs on trying to improve Doctor Fate and Spectres’ profiles?
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More than enough, because he had the rights to compose the entire cosmology, and it was accepted at the official level. And what's the problem? The fact that beings of higher dimensions can die does not correlate in any way with your words, trying to tie them to lower ones. The gods have a quantitative difference in strength among themselves, not a qualitative one. Yahweh may be at least infinitely times stronger than Steppenwolf, but they live on the same plane of existence.
Well, that is, Anti-Life is such a cool thing that it is Apolipse for the gods, and Darkseid is its master?
Beyond in the context of what? That they are not classified as gods? Or that they are living concepts? Maybe yes, before the gods in general cosmology were not conceptual, but Morrison corrected this.
Yahweh created one of the multiverses, I congratulate him. New gods also create universes. Darkseid's puppets are emanations of his will, there is nothing unusual about this, because Darkseid's puppets are also multiverse platonic concepts.
People, with the help of the collective, only give a conventional image to the gods, making them real for subjective existence.
In context, the protection of the universe, or was Darkseid really its protector?
Anti-life can banish concepts, as demonstrated on Yahweh. And this is just one of the functions of Anti-Life; throughout many comics it has demonstrated its various abilities.
Morrison confirmed in an interview that the New Genesis Gods were killed during the war, or you can say they weren't killed by Anti-Life.
Have you read the interview with Morrison? He confirmed that Black Racer stole Darkseid's true essence, as he is the concept of death for the New Gods. What Superman is talking to is just a residual echo of Darkseid's evil.
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Avoiding simple questions doesn’t look very nice either
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Except Yahweh has not died and can just leave all of Creation whenever he desires. He can also just fix and destroy Creation at will. He very much isn't just a regular “god” and has many statements to his position on how not even Death herself can claim him.
How gods actually scale up to him has been answered throughout the whole of Sandman and Lucifer. They are nothing to him as is anything.
Yes, yet they can be depowered, can die, can change which all has nonsequential to Yahweh. Their conceptuality is very low when compared to higher orders of beings.
Platonic was never used right by Morrison, to begin with. A platonic concept is eternal and unchanging which Darkseid isn't.
The Presence which we will adhere to him as in replacement for Yahweh supplements energy to beings beyond the new gods to create Multiverses. At the time of Lucifer, that one Creation was “everything.” The logic is that dreams shaped everything since the beginning of time and Yahweh’s actions affected anything since the beginning. He could unmake any sort of logic as he literally willed all the rules even one with the Void.
What's your point on this? Yahweh literally did not care for anything of what he carpeted except for Michael and Lucifer and even he abandoned them. He literally doesn't protect Creation nor does he need to. Darkseid wasn't protecting anything, he wanted to drag it all down to the singularity but was left wounded by Batman.
Never once stated it can destroy a being of that caliber since it is part of the Source, which originated both sides: Life and Anti-Life.
Guess who killed them? The Source! The Wall implemented created a barrier between Life and Anti-Life, which would later be destroyed by the time of Final Crisis.
Interviews are meant to be taken with a grain of salt. Superman mentions that he is dying and then shatters him. Then Darkseid retreated where Mandrakk come to pass by.
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This discussion looks very exciting
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I didn’t even write that he died in the usual sense of the word. Even the New Gods cannot die in the usual sense of understanding, collecting themselves from fragments, or trying to escape from the Source.
The new gods surpassed him because of their possession of Anti-Life and faith in them, I did not write that in their basic states they are stronger than him. On the contrary, I myself know and believe that Yhwach is the strongest in the Sphere of the Gods, with the exception of Anti-Life, or the Black Racer. But this is only a quantitative difference, and this does not mean that it cannot be surpassed, which is what happened in the Final Crisis.
There are no beings of a high order in the Sphere of the Gods; they are all equal on the same plane of existence.
This is a very strange statement. Terms in comics or other fictional universes do not have to be used correctly, they are not a scientific article, but only the thoughts of the authors, who are not necessarily philosophers, taking only indirect ideas for their works. Thus, it can be stated that in real life there are no creatures capable of destroying the multiverse, which means it is unrealistic for comics.
Yes, and the claim is incomprehensible, Darkseid is larger than the multiverse in size, and older than time, some part, although it is logical that not all, is used from Plato’s descriptions
What difference does it make what happened before? The Source used to not be an absolute, but only showed itself as walls around ordinary universes, but thanks to a change in the hierarchical system and a character census, it became the strongest being in cosmology, along with the Unknowable and the Overvoid. What was previously interpreted as Yahweh being the strongest and going beyond the Dc cosmology is false for what comes next
He did not protect in the truest sense of the word when he descended into the universe. This was done by angels, who are emanations of his will or man-made creations. But we were talking about a context to which Darkseid is absolutely inappropriate
This is confirmed by Gaiman's comic. The Source is an absolute being, so why not.
Within the framework of Morrison's comics, it was Darkseid who killed the New Gods, since he called Starlin's comic a secondary canon, Apocrypha, only a partial description of huge cosmic events.
The interview does not contradict the comic, where before Darkseid was defeated, he was captured by Black Racer. Well, the author’s opinion will still be more important than the reader’s opinion. I will never listen to what people write to me on the Internet that go against the opinion of the author, who clearly knows better what he writes
NRAMA: Superman and Darkseid - for those of us who didn't attend night classes on New Genesis...despite being shot through the heart, Darkseid is still alive, he's taking aim at Orion to basically start the whole story, and the Flashes lead the Black racer to him...and that kills him? I feel a little slow here, but when did he start falling through the multiverses?
GM: Again, I don’t think you need to know anything about New Genesis or any other information apart from what’s in the story. Darkseid wasn’t shot in the heart. We all know Batman doesn’t kill people, hasn’t killed people for 70 years and isn’t about to start here. It’s a big enough deal for Batman to pick up a gun. He winged Turpin knowing that the Radion in the bullet would be enough to poison Darkseid’s divine essence. Radion only kills gods after all. It slays idea After that shot, Darkseid is dying, just as someone with radiation poisoning might slowly expire, as Superman explains in #7. The Black Racer drags him strugs.gling away into oblivion over the course of that issue until nothing remains but the fading, ghost-echoes of his malice.
Darkseid started falling through the universe after the event we experienced as The Death of The New Gods. He fell backwards through time and wound up in a human body, on Earth, in the Mister Miracle series back in 2005.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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The "simple questions" haven't been avoided, they've been answered.
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Well, I don’t regard answers in the style of guess it yourself or google it on the Internet as good
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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That's not what we've given you.
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I told you, the concept of divinity only exists in the sphere of the gods. The statement that I am infinite, I am omnipotent only applies in their area/place.
Lower dimensions are limited when compared to higher dimensions and that is normal.
You haven't proven the reason why God/smile or Yahweh is above the sixth dimension
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They are not there. This is a strong misconception that I see often.
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We're going in circles again
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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You will get nowhere by behaving like this.
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Stop acting like a child, if you want to argue just provide feats/proof in comics or whatever
#edit
if you can't, just look at it, just watch without talking
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if you can't, just look at it, just watch without talking
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This does not need to be proven. Neither Yahweh nor Smile were written as being restricted to any one realm. They are all-encompassing figures as a whole.
What you call the Sixth Dimension is a plane of reality that lies at the edges of the universe and transcends everything else. The aleph region in the Lucifer series is the extreme limit of the universe where everything can be observed. Do you think this realm protected by the Source covers a single realm or plane? "Lucifer trivializes the Source beyond the Sixth Dimension." Do you think his comment makes sense based on this statement? Or Silence, which is a realm in itself, is not the infinite universe or realm but contains the creation (infinite custom) that defines everything. Snyder makes the description of the two Voids (void and overvoid) similar. This thing we call composite hierarchy causes so many irrelevant comments that please give up this nonsense.
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Do you have any proof of them being stated outside of the source?
Edges of the universe? Like this? [Here]
Wow braniac level [Here]
I mean, the source you mean is the boundary of the universe in the multiverse, by crossing it we can know that he will see a different world from the multiverse.
There are various kinds of voids, if you want to say the void in lucifer 2000, then it describes the void outside of creation. physical world? Yes, Silver City? maybe, it is just a creation in Yahweh's domain, but not the underworld or other. Because in the gods of other religions, there is a sea of brahma, a void outside the plan of Yahweh [Here]
Archetype realms only in sphere of the gods, Gods are archetypes
Realms of archetypal powers
As humanity grew, it’s beliefs grew in tandem. Hardening into stricter forms. The realm around her (i.e., the Sphere of the Gods) began to splinter off into bold new forms. Great houses to pantheons of incredible gods. Each with their own mysteries and power.”
“This universe is built on belief. The little mortals believe in gods and so the gods exist.”
The concept of gods/archetypes that humans worship does not exist in the higher plane like 6th dimension, 5th dimension, monitor sphere or the overvoid
Only in the sphere of the gods [this is also a higher plane, but the world above it does not apply the concept of gods that humans worship].
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That Smile is all encompassing but the Presence is not. These two entities are not the same and aren’t on the same scope either, so it’s pretty unfair to compare them. That Smile being is way beyond The Presence. The Presence caps at the Sphere of Gods and he is probably not even be the strongest being in there. The entire Sphere of Gods is basically an expression of humanities Collective Unconscious, and there are beings manifested from humanities CU that the Presence literally can’t kill.
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the presence is the source
source>sphere of gods so you're wrong here..for the 9999th time
source>sphere of gods so you're wrong here..for the 9999th time
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No he’s not. If we only look at that one statement from Death Metal in a vacuum and ignore everything else than sure. However, obviously that wouldn’t be an honest thing to do. Thankfully, It was already clarified before in an interview that the Presence is just an aspect of a grander creator, with the Source being a less manifest creator God than the Presence. And this makes perfect sense when we take a moment to actually recognize the Presence’s consistent depiction as not this ineffable boundless energy outside of the whole cosmology, but simply the boring looking monopoly man that sometimes appears as a dog, lives in the Silver City within the Multiverse, and is not even powerful enough to kill beings from humanities Collective Unconscious.
So actually you’re the one who’s wrong here.
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True though, coming from someone who likes the Vertigo guys.
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I like the Vertigo characters too actually, and when it comes to The Presence I actually like the way DC treats him. He’s like this boring God that moves in mysterious ways. People worship him, the angels serve him, but deep beneath the surface, when you look at him from the perspective of characters that aren’t severely weaker than him, you realize that the image he has of being this ultimate good isn’t really true. And that many of the beings who don’t like him, don’t even have an actual reason to be afraid of him since he can’t even kill them. Ex) Blight and monsieur stigmonous. These types of characters don’t like him for what he does, represents, and the impact he has on people. And this different perspective reflects a lot of what we see going on in reality today.
Excellence616
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Captain Atom>Firestorm scaling.
Currently, we have two fights for Captain Atom and Firestorm, but they actually fought a third time. Their second meeting and fight is Fury of Firestorm #63. This is where we get the infamous scan of Firestorm breaking his hand on Captain Atom's face. We also get Cap stating he's faster than...
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Lucifer went to Aleph to see the pocket reality created Sandalphon and the whereabouts of his captive Michael. Silver City is completely separated from creation through the void. The abyss is what surrounds heaven. He has a nature of utter contempt for all the rest of creation in Silver City, but Lucifer couldn't or didn't want to go there. He can't go to Silence anyway, it was clear that even his footsteps would destroy and erase this entire realm. Even if we position them under the aleph, it is obvious that they have a structure similar to the Sixth Dimension. Not in terms of power.
The Aleph is the boundary of everything, not just the multiverse. And beyond is the Source.
I leave Black Label completely out of my comments. Even if it were not so, the sea of Brahma is a nothingness underlying everything. Yahweh's plan only covers creation, and there are some elements that violate his reach. Like Lucifer hiding Sycorax from God's all-seeing eye, for example. Lucifer also traveled to other underworlds. He was clearly far superior to them and even destroyed some of them.
As I said, the Sphere was designed for the Gods. Lucifer can destroy the Book of Souls, which covers all dimensions in the Map of Multiverse, at will. If we were to base the series, Lucifer is the Great Darkness itself, and if we were to compare it with other series, it would be Lucifer > Source and Overvoid? We cannot allow creating a hierarchy and cosmology with irrelevant interpretations.
Yeah.
It should not be forgotten that SOG is the source of all magic in creation, or one of the energies of the Source. These do not make it a higher dimension, but they can affect higher dimensions and be more powerful than the beings there.
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I'm tired of explaining, Being is the creator of the angels and the material plane. But what I am saying is tied to what we call Crisis Cosmology. How many times has it been mentioned that the Entity and the Source are the same person... Tyler had it confirmed. But Matteis' Being is absolute unity that contains and surpasses everything. He thinks that everything is an aspect of Presence. Even beings like the Smile and the Magician.
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Wow strange theory
It's funny, likening that place to the source wall
The source wall is the end of everything in the multiverse[Here,] including Yahweh's creation, including the aleph you mean
That place is said to be the edge of Creation [the physical realm].
How is it different from a source wall? on the source wall you will not see everything in the universe.
Lucifer went there just to see the whole universe right? [Here]. It's not the source wall or whatever you mean, it's a place where you can see different worlds throughout the multiverse [Here].
A place to see everything in the entire multiverse.
In the underworld, Hinduism has a very powerful god, even Yahweh does not reach that place, Lucifer only destroys the realm of other gods besides the realm of Hindu gods.
The book of destiny was only burned and did not damage anything, destiny continued as usual. unless you change the contents by removing your name and you will die if you do, like lucifer who died because he erased his name, is that what you call great darkness?
Lucifer is his [Puppet], his strongest puppets are empty hand and darkseid
Darkseid feats beyond lucifer power:
Exist outside of the void, there is Darkseid, the end of everything.
Here,Here, Here
If lucifer had feats like this, you would definitely call white void is the overvoid and darkseid is the great darkness in your opinion
The concept of a god like yahweh is a concept in the Abrahamic religion, it only exists in the sphere of the gods
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The previous link cannot be accessed
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I doubt whether you understand what I say...Wow strange theory
It's funny, likening that place to the source wall
The source wall is the end of everything in the multiverse[Here,] including Yahweh's creation, including the aleph you mean
That place is said to be the edge of Creation [the physical realm].
How is it different from a source wall? on the source wall you will not see everything in the universe.
Lucifer went there just to see the whole universe right? [Here]. It's not the source wall or whatever you mean, it's a place where you can see different worlds throughout the multiverse [Here].
A place to see everything in the entire multiverse.
In Yahweh's creation, the Source is the protective entity beyond the boundaries of creation. It is never, ever the source of everything. Like Elaine and Mona in Lucifer's creation. Aleph and Source wall are practically the same. Not every writer has holistic ideas like you, I'm sorry.
Do you think Yahweh cannot reach places beyond the reach of his plan? Destiny and her book are the side effect of her deterministic approach to all of creation. The book is based on his screenplay. What you say or try to express supports me. Destiny itself implies that Lucifer may destroy the book. Even though it was erased from the book, its creation stories still remained in memory.
It's not clear he's not the True Lucifer
? Or just transformed into beings that Constantine is familiar with?
The series' cast includes Watters, who claims to be Lucifer's Great Darkness. He should be aware of this too. Lucifer has often been described as darkness. He is God's shadow created to perfect his own light. Darkesid is not outside the void. That void is a void completely independent of the void in Lucifer.
Do you think Darkesid is right about what he claims? Is it really the end of everything? Of course no. Even his true form is a weaks being compared to Lucifer. Even if I don't base it on what I've said, and even if Lucifer isn't Graet Darkness (which I don't care) any of his feats are beyond the unable beings in DC.Lucifer is his [Puppet], his strongest puppets are empty hand and darkseid
Darkseid feats beyond lucifer power:
Exist outside of the void, there is Darkseid, the end of everything.
Here,Here, Here
If lucifer had feats like this, you would definitely call white void is the overvoid and darkseid is the great darkness in your opinion
The concept of a god like yahweh is a concept in the Abrahamic religion, it only exists in the sphere of the gods
#edit
The previous link cannot be accessed
This is a manifestation of it created by people's dreams. Like the case of Devil or God, they did not choose this. Lucifer's acting with his avatars supports these.
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The Source Wall surrounds every universe and every plane in the cosmological structure, there is no connection between it and Yahweh.
No, Yahweh cannot reach any places, as he is limited by the Sphere of the Gods. Creation refers to the physical multiverse, in the context of the hierarchical plane of existence in which he resides.
If Yahweh created the creation and lives in the Sphere of the Gods, then the physical multiverse is called the creation.
When the Unknowable isstated to exist beyond creation, it applies to the entire multiverse structure of the Dc, since the map itself identifies him as the supreme entity of the entire cosmological structure. The Unknowable One is possibly a stronger being, and is indicated as God.
The Great Darkness in Lucifer Volume 3 does not have the same cosmological power that it has in the new comics. She was greatly strengthened and her cosmological position changed, making her perhaps the absolute and strongest being in cosmology.
Compared to the new Lucifer, yes, he has become stronger. But in the old comics, he is an incredible number of times stronger than Yahweh, who is many times stronger than any Archangel. In fact, it is not known for sure whether Lucifer in the new chronology is the Great Darkness, or its puppet.
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Your use of character statements is very strange. If one character says that he created a creation, then you attribute to his words the absolute cosmology of the universe, with all its structures. If another character you don’t like says almost the same thing, then his cosmological position is lower, for some reason.
Yahweh > Creation
Darkseid > Creation
Yhwach is higher than Darkseid in terms of existence. Is there some gap in your logic?
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That true god, who is called the Presence, in the framework of the highest level of cosmology, is the same The Unknowable
Morrison: Yeah. Again, on the very edge of the art and the edge of the mind of God there are these two big concepts fighting – Superman and Mandrakk, Predation and Protection, Greed and Preservation, Ugly and Beautiful, Youth and Age, Good and Evil, Black and White, Is and Isn't and all the others. Beyond that crumbling ledge in Monitor-World, those concepts don't exist and it's all non-dual Monitor mind, or God, or Kirby's Source, in which all contradictions are resolved into unity. It's funny, the more I talk about it, the more I'm getting into it!
The Unknowable and created the entire Dc multiverse, created it from ink (The Source)
In the case of comic book stories, it's the war between white page and ink. And who's to say that the page might want that particular story drawn on it? [laughs] What happens if the page is a bit pissed off at the story that's drawn on it?
Morrison: Yeah. Again, on the very edge of the art and the edge of the mind of God there are these two big concepts fighting – Superman and Mandrakk, Predation and Protection, Greed and Preservation, Ugly and Beautiful, Youth and Age, Good and Evil, Black and White, Is and Isn't and all the others. Beyond that crumbling ledge in Monitor-World, those concepts don't exist and it's all non-dual Monitor mind, or God, or Kirby's Source, in which all contradictions are resolved into unity. It's funny, the more I talk about it, the more I'm getting into it!
The Unknowable and created the entire Dc multiverse, created it from ink (The Source)
In the case of comic book stories, it's the war between white page and ink. And who's to say that the page might want that particular story drawn on it? [laughs] What happens if the page is a bit pissed off at the story that's drawn on it?
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To The Unknowable, the Overvoid is simply a piece of paper on which he writes his stories.
And it's condensing stories out of itself because it finds inside its own gigantic white space, self-absorbed pristine consciousness, it finds this little stain or mark, this DC Multiverse somebody has 'drawn'. And it starts investigating, and it's just shocked with what it sees, with all the crazy activity and signifying going on in there. It then tries to protect itself from the seething contact with 'story' and imagines a race of beings, 'angels' or 'monitors' (another word for angel, of course) to function as an interface between its own giant eternal magnificence and this tiny, weird crawling anthill of life and significance that is the DC Multiverse.
And The Unknowable split the Source, making a crack in it, creating the entire creation. This is a very correct interpretation for late cosmology
And it's condensing stories out of itself because it finds inside its own gigantic white space, self-absorbed pristine consciousness, it finds this little stain or mark, this DC Multiverse somebody has 'drawn'. And it starts investigating, and it's just shocked with what it sees, with all the crazy activity and signifying going on in there. It then tries to protect itself from the seething contact with 'story' and imagines a race of beings, 'angels' or 'monitors' (another word for angel, of course) to function as an interface between its own giant eternal magnificence and this tiny, weird crawling anthill of life and significance that is the DC Multiverse.
And The Unknowable split the Source, making a crack in it, creating the entire creation. This is a very correct interpretation for late cosmology
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I understand what you're talking about, but that's just an assumption that ignores other statements
It's never stated that way, lucifer was there just to see everything in all of creation, that's all and that's already answered, didn't you read that?
The one I posted already answered it, it's just a place where people can see everything and it's not the source wall either
Yes, Yahweh did not reach that place [Here] [Here].
Do you know what archetypes are? Gods are archetypes.
I told you, Yahweh is a concept brought into being by the human mind, just like any other gods. These archetypal concepts only exist in the sphere of the gods, that is also why their place is only in the sphere of the gods, the city of silver is one of the many heavens in the sphere of the gods.
If you read the Lucifer comic, you will understand that the absence of congregants makes them starve and become cannibals.
That was Lucifer's statement, he didn't even answer it.
The endless existed before the gods [Here], the gods are born in the dreaming realm [Here].
They exist because of their mother night and father time, a concept that existed before the beginning[Here]. The book of destiny was a gift from father time.
Yahweh is the same as other gods:
•“As humanity grew, it’s beliefs grew in tandem. Hardening into stricter forms. The realm around her (i.e., the Sphere of the Gods) began to splinter off into bold new forms. Great houses to pantheons of incredible gods. Each with their own mysteries and power.”
•“This universe is built on belief. The little mortals believe in gods and so the gods exist.”
Yahweh could die, how could Lucifer not? it's clear lucifer is the one who died, so read again, he couldn't even save his son from death.
I have given you proof, also Yahweh is the creator of Lucifer and Yahweh existed before Lucifer. Lucifer could not have existed before Yahweh created him.
The Great Darkness also existed before the Overvoid, like saying that Lucifer existed before Yahweh? Does not make sense, he's just a puppet and that's what his name is, a great beast, but that doesn't mean he's a great darkness ( Because it doesn't make sense).
I also wouldn't say darkseid is the great darkness, just because it says he is the darkness and highfather is the light.
5D imps are outside of creation, do you want to say that they are outside the source wall too? Without looking at the context of the story?
Sorry bro
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Even in the Dc guidebook, it is indicated that the Silver City exists outside of reality, which does not contradict Vertigo5D imps are outside of creation, do you want to say that they are outside the source wall too? Without looking at the context of the story?
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And in general, I am amused by the guys who share the cosmology of Dc and Vertigo, but at the same time, use the Dc encyclopedia, which combines the characters of Vertigo and Dc. Is everything okay with the logic here?
