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Galactus should be high 1B

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Anyway, how should we solve this? Should we use a compromise solution of letting Lifebringer Galactus remain at High 1-B along with Logos, but avoid scaling any other character to them, or would that just open the doors to neverending arguments of making every cosmic entity in the Marvel universe High 1-B in their universal incarnations?
 
I mean even without scaling to the Aspirants Ego Prime was still stated by Galactus to be on his level as a lifebringer, but if you still want that key removed then i wont argue
 
Okay. Thank you for being reasonable. I am not denying that the story treated him as comparable. I am just saying that it makes absolutely no sense for a living planet and a horde of universal entities, such as Celestials, to suddenly be comparable to multiversal embodiments, and that it causes a scaling nightmare for us to treat them that way.
 
I get the feeling youre a bit confused, and that's probably a bit of my fault for not explaining things properly so i appologize. Ego and the other beings that Galactus gathered were all empowered by the Wellspring of Life just like Galactus' Lifebringer form was.

The Celestials that they fought were Aspirants empowered by the First Firmament.
 
Aha, so it wasn't their own power alone? That would make the story far more reasonable.

Are you certain of this though?
 
Yes, it wasnt their base forms, they were all empowered

Positive, im currently gathering scans to back all of this

As for Black Panther's involvement in all of this, it wasnt his base form either, it was his astral form which was significantly amplified by the Panther God (iirc, checking that right now).

My apologies once again for any confusion i caused, i havent been able to get the scans i promised earlier in the thread until today and i feel like they would have prevented a lot of problems here...
 
Well, regardless, I think that we should avoid inserting statistics for all characters that were not operating under their own power.
 
The Panther God should also not remotely be of a multiversal scale any more than the Tiger God.
 
I apologize for not respont to @Ant's message... I'll do so in time.... As apparently I have some sort of sickness right now and it's excrutiatingly hard to concentrate right now... I know I need some rest...But this is far more important :

> Celestials being empowered

No. They weren't. At best you can argue the only thing they didn't do was harm the First Firmanent. Their roles as the Creator of the Multiverse was cemented in that arc , and yes Aspirants were amped (not the Celestials) and the First Firmanent amping them would make no sense as he was actively trying to kill them.

I understand and sympathize your attempt to try to make it any less than what it is to avoid confronting what you despise the most about marvel , but this isn't something that can be solved in a few scans. This can only be done in a thread like fashion

And another important factor:

Why is this on Uatu's profile if such high-ends as we suggested are viewed as an outlier

> Infinite Rivers of Reality

That Aron vs Uatu batte , if looked into more context, was shown to affect higher-dimensions such as the superstrings

> "Struggling on Every Level of Existence"

Literally that's blatantly High 1-B... If you agree it to be an outlier, why in the world of all things holy is this under the higher section ? I suggest removal of it from the page if you still believe Universal Abstracts aren't High 1-B, because that "higher" is going to antice more people other than me (as through private messaging I'm not the only one who wanted that revision... There was at least ten if memory serves), and that is going to ignite them faster than a combustable item and a torch.
 
Couldn't Black Panther overpowering it be a contestment to BP's determination , and it was a battle of wills, not power ? We've seen how Captain American can even outpower objects he shouldn't with his willpower , so why not BP ? That's a lot of a safer interpretation than just BP beating up the Tiger God in raw poower
 
"The Power of the Tiger God allowed me to ascend to this plane -- a guide and shield but the power I wield now is my own"
 
Look, all I want to do is find some sort of balance in the statistics for characters that are not explicitly multiversal embodiments or above, so we do not use extreme outliers either upwards or downwards. Otherwise we would severely damage our reliability.

@Seed

I think that the scan that you brought up is rather ambiguous in terms of scale, but we should probably remove it, yes.

I hope that you will recover from your sickness soon.
 
Black Panther's willpower somehow enabled him to rewrite the multiversal structure of reality itself from which all laws of physics spring. If that is not a massive case of Plot-Induced Stupidity, I don't know what is.
 
@Ant Thank you. I understand... I do... But a lot more people agree with that line of thinking than you believe does. I've met a lot of people on this very wikia who agrees with my viewpoint... especially In my previous threads... And that was well before I had access to the majority of the scans I have now to prove it. So IF it manages to suceed, it won't be as big of a deal as you make it out to be (feel free to chew me out otherwise... But I'm confident in this wikia and it's ability to adapt to massive changes to it's tiering... Especially with Devil May Cry , Guilty Gear, and God of War revisions... Hence why I'm confident in this one going in a orderly fashion if I come to it in a respectable manner and everything is considered, nothing thrown out for the sake of it being ridiculous)

It's usually only you and Matthew who I've come to a stalemate regardless of evidence , as sometimes you agree, sometimes you don't. Hence why I believe we need a thread/ offical revision where this can be solved and dealt with. It's not that I don't like a good challenge, but I'd rather be able to conclude it than end up with a stalemate everytime we debate.

But let me answer one of your questions you had before:

  • Also yes The Crossroads of Infinity [Which were shown to be comparable to the Negative Zone's Crossroads as both are described to be the Junction to Everywhere in the same timeperiod as the other, and both have been described to contain Higher-Dimensions] were shown to be one of , if not the lowest mystic realms in the MU ... A friend showd it to me recently. So the low Abstract tiers scaling to it isn't as contradictory as I originally thought... Because it's nowhere near the full size of the Multiverse. I can show the scan if need be.
 
Again, everybody technically scale to everybody in Marvel, and there are constant massive outliers upwards or downwards for most of the characters.

Our job should be to attempt to gauge which feats that are reliable to scale from for which characters, and show some degree of consistency with the general portrayal, not to go with a biased gut instinct of wanking everything as much as possible without a care to if it remotely makes any sense, or how much damage it causes to the internal structure of our profiles.

I am extremely tired of other members not making an effort to display some basic common sense in this regard. Marvel is most definitely NOT in any way similar to franchises that have a much more limited amount of entries and are enormously more internally consistent. As you saw in the recent Avengers story with Nyx, the writers once again admitted that Marvel has no powerscaling structure or coherent story logic to speak of, and they are proud of it, as they label it "pure imagination".

As such, I would greatly appreciate if you and other member would work with me to help out to find a structure that makes sense, instead of constantly pestering me to accept ridiculously extreme upgrades. It wastes a lot of time and energy that I do not have available, and I am starting to wonder if it is a lost cause to even feature any Marvel Comics profiles in this wiki, as the entire point of this place is to find order and coherence, and Marvel literally has none whatsoever to speak of.

So, again, I am fine with rating the genuine multiversal entities, such as the entire Phoenix Force, and likely Logos and Lifebringer Galactus as High 1-B, but to have every single minor cosmic entity, in every single individual universe at this level would both scale from ridiculous outliers and not make any sense whatsoever.

So, in conclusion, can everybody finally start to let go of their needs to have everything upgraded to insane degrees, and collaborate with me to find a rational workable structure instead? Because I am very tired of acting like a lone bulwark.
 
Ant... I don't believe you understand what I'm trying to do. I don't believe you understand my points... We will find a basic structure... But we need to deal with everything else first in a correct fashion. It isn't as simple as letting it go, as even though we could, we need to have a proper thread that has gone through and legitimately canceled out all possible evidence hinting at such levels so that everyone can be at one accord... Because from the perspective of others for that particular upgrade, it more appears to be shutdown due to not wanting to listen rather than debunked thoroughly ... So we need to make sure it is accurately debunked so they can be hushed as well and then we can go about doing this the right way..

There will be others like I told you before, because I've seen them and debated with them , and even asked them to hold off coming until this is properly dealt with as I told them you are having a hard time with one person debating this topic... imagine at least 10... Far more ferocious than I have been debating on the topic..which thank god they have followed through on my request... Otherwise a flood of people will come and debate for that upgrade in a far less sophisticated & understanding manner, driving all of the Marvel related content to ruin

So... To avoid all of that... I need you , as a moderator and a friend, to cooperate and allow a thread to be made concerning this. I'm not sure if it will suceed, but whether it does or doesn't, we need to be sure that there isn't any way to debate about it any longer.
 
@Seed

The problem is that I do not think that you understand that if we start to upgrade universal cosmic entities to such an outrageously high scale as High 1-B, all of the rest would follow in their wake. We need to keep different types of entities somewhat separate.

Also, the reason why I cannot argue so much is that I am busy with hundreds of different tasks ever day, and cannot commit to just one of them. In addition the rest of the staff mostly don't seem to have the time and energy to help me out much with this topic anymore.

As such, I do not think that starting another thread is a good idea. I have already committed myself as much as I am able to responding to you in this thread.

@POTM

I suppose so, but I would prefer to wait for Matthew to give a confirmation first.

You can upgrade the multiversal Phoenix Force in the meantime though.
 
Hmm ... I'm not sure if I stated it, but only those who can fight and or is comparable to the 616 Abstract would be affected , as more than once the 616 Universal Abstracts are referred to be the strongest avatars in various canons, which make sense considering how important 616 is to the Multiverse... And even the anthromorpho incident heavily implied this, and stated that not all avatars are equal... So it won't be a "infinite number" of them affected by the change.

I understand... But you don't have to debate. We will just periodically ask you to look at maybe one thing ... And that's it. I just need confirmation on who does or doesn't see it as legitimate based on evidence... Which while I'm not as gung-ho as I used to be not too long ago and am neutral right now as of its' passing, I do want to make sure that it's agreed to be thrown out rather than just tossed to the side to deal with later. Besides, one of your knowledgable members (Prince I believe ?) did state he would prefer this be debated in another thread than here.
 
Even if certain universal avatars are stronger and more important, it still shouldn't make them able to wipe out an entire infinite-dimensional multiverse by being comparable to their multiversal abstract counterparts. That makes absolutely no sense.

Anyway, I have already spent a lot more time and energy than I have available to indulge you here and explain why we have to scale this way. I don want to have to continue to do so for many days, and as I have mentioned earlier, there are very few staff members who both have sufficient knowledge, interest, and available time to help me out with the Marvel scaling.
 
Uhh... I'm not certain because in 3 versions of Heroes Reborn, and several , innumerous scans state otherwise. I am unsure of them being comparable to the Multi-Abstracts, prior to Ultimates (beside that one feat by FR and stated by the LT... But both of those could be seen as outliers... Especially with the second) because of so many realms that dwarf the infinite-D structure of the crossroads.... Including some that would come across as shocking (Nightmare's and Cyttorak's Realms). So no, I don't think you could scale them to the Multi-Abstracts... only to feats of their own merit.

You don't have to.... I oly asked for every now and again to maybe check up on how many agrees/disagree, and if an overwhelming number shifts in the opposite direction we check it out. You've done that on several other threads that I've spectated...all I'm just asking you to continue what you have been doing for other threads and check up on it' progression periodically, and lock it if it goes too far.
 
Marvel is a special case. It requires very indepth widespread knowledge to not get confused by individual scans taken out of context. Regrettably it is both our most popular and least consistent franchise in this wiki. This means that we both cannot just get rid of it and cannot scale it properly, and despite that I have lost interest, have limited time, and despise what it has been mutilated into in recent years, I seem to be stuck overseeing it, since other staff members mostly only have rudimentary familiarity with it, and/or are busy IRL.

That said, I think that a franchise that is proudly so completely incoherent in terms of story logic as Marvel, really is a very poor fit for this type of wiki. Like yourself I am autistic, so I like things to be neat, orderly, structured, and logical. Unlike you I have realised that Marvel is the antithesis of all of that.
 
@POTM

You seem to have a decent knowledge of Marvel stories. What do you think that we should do?
 
... I agree with Antvasima here actually.. Now that I think about it. This requires far more than merely me or you, someone else who knows enough to possibly determine what the best course of action is. I'll leave it up to Prince to see if we should make a thread or not concerning this matter.
 
Yes, maybe POTM could try to properly evaluate and structure the information?
 
@Ant

I'm pretty focused on collating scans for the DC profiles at the moment, and I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about but if you need someone to help you out with Marvel then I can try to assist.

Is this thread still focused on Ego-Prime, or Tiger God, or what?
 
We can focus on the Ultimates stuff now, then discuss what I was talking about once everything else is settled. I've waited this long... I can wait a few more days, likely weeks.
 
@POTM

We have been talking about the overall approach to the scaling of all universal cosmic entities.

Weekly also seems to have accepted that we remove the Ego Prime statistics, so I should probably do so, if the rest of you are fine with it.
 
@Seed

Well my opinion on the Ultimates is this:

To my knowledge, the "combat is metaphor" system is solely used by Al Ewing. Therefore, merely battling on the highest level of reality in this storyline should not warrant a High 1-B statistic. Lifebringer Galactus and Logos should be High 1-B, as should the new Living Tribunal, because they are legitimate multiversal abstracts, even if the hierarchy between them was nonexistent in this story.

But people like the Infinaut, Psi-Hawk, Black Panther, and Aspirants should not be High 1-B because, as I said above, they are not actual multiversal abstracts.

@Ant

Aren't they pretty fine as they are? What's the issue that Seed is intent on?
 
@POTM

Seed wants all universal cosmic entities to be High 1-B as well, or at least enough so the rest would be scaled from them automatically. I have been trying to explain the same thing to him that you just did: That it makes absolutely no sense, even though he can find some scans that might support it due to Marvel being so inconsistent from writer to writer and story to story.

Thank you for the support. I also think that the multiversal abstracts should be High 1-B, but that the rest should be treated as PIS.
 
Ant pretty much explained it. I already have plenty of scans to attempt to prove it... From the various blogs to the unshowed stuff I haven't shown a soul yet. However our main concern is whether or not we should make a thread to list all the evidence and have a debate about it's legitimacy by examing all the scans presented . I just want to do it for the sake of finality, because I want this to reach a sound conclusion that will prove to all those who support it ... That it is either legitimate or not ... If that makes any sense ?

If a reasonable debate happens and I'm proven wrong, consider it my word I'll never make mention of it again anywhere. You can even delete all my Marvel related blogs or make a disucssion rule specifically banning me from talking about it if you want to go that far, I just want this to end.

I also have no intention of hurting Marvel. This is more so to help it because if for some reason anyone comes with similar reasoning, you have something to fall back on that proves it has already been discussed and thoroughly either approved or rejected.
 
Well, the problem is that I simply do not have the free time to go through every single one of your many scans and analyse them one by one, and my point about that it makes absolutely no sense and should be considered as PIS still stands.
 
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