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Galactus should be high 1B

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Everyone who scales to black panther, which through weird marvel scaling can be literally everyone else in the verse. 1-A gorilla for biting hulk type stuff.
 
Ego, the Celestials, and everybody as strong or stronger than Black Panther.
 
I understand why Ego don't scale. But the Celestials? Why? In Avengers the disease weakened the celestials with the first contact.
 
Because virtually all other cosmic entities, including regular Galactus and the skyfathers, would scale from High 1-B Celestials. They simply are not portrayed at anywhere near that scale of power. Sorry, but I am adamant on this point, and won't change my mind that it would create a scaling nightmare.
 
I think that the Skyfather don't scale with the Celestials. Odin, Phoenix, Agammott, and other can't defeat one celestial in normal condition.
 
They can fight on almost even ground with a normal-powered Galactus, who can beat individual Celestials.

Again, everybody would scale if we made the universal cosmic entities High 1-B, and it wouldn't make any sense. It is a massive plot-induced stupidity outlier.

Can we permanently drop this issue please? I do not remotely have the time to continue to argue about it, and will never ever change my mind about it no matter how much you bother me about it.

I would even rather delete the Marvel cosmic entity profiles with completely inconsistent scaling, than allow temporary complete lack of story logic to rule our scaling to ridiculously bloated, irrational, and unreliable extremes, but I would much prefer if people just try to keep some common sense instead.
 
I really lament, when someone say can't change your mind, exist only two motive. 1: you have all knowledge. 2: you is God. And, I can't believe that you are a god or omniscient. But okay. I respect your position about it.
 
No. I am just trying to ensure that our Marvel profiles do not get far more unreliable and exaggerated scaling than they already have, and with Matthew out of commission, I have to try to work even harder than usual, by acting as a bulward against the scaling insanity without his help, on top of my regular tasks.
 
First Driger, I know ant well enough that he. wouldn't mean it on such a way. Please don't accuse him of such a thing ever again.

Secondly Ant, I don't think you understand what I was trying to say though ? I understand your pain of having to deal with this alone, but I promise I didn't say what I believe you may have thought I said (Universal Abstracts being High 1-B):

  • I said that I gave up on the "Universal Abstracts" scaling to High 1-B in the previous post you deleted and admitted i will give in that regard.
  • I only asked in the previous post that the Ultimate versions of The Celestials and FR be given a key for that version of themselves... No one except those portrayed in ultimates would scale , nor Black Panther or any other exaggeration since they are too inconsistent to be given a key for that version
  • Similar to how we treat Beyonder, this should be treated as an retcon to their power during the issues canon to the Ultimates storyline, hence the key.
  • We've given Marvel people upgrades based on a singular comic issue before, so this shouldn't be too much of a problem. Especially considering how much evidence that comic set portrays them at such a level.
Is this understandanle ?
 
Thank you. Anyway, it was a too temporary inconsistent scaling compared to their regular portrayals, and shortly followed by that they were beaten by giant Avengers, which showed their power in the other direction instead. We cannot give them keys for every single appearance. They are far too inconsistent for that.
 
Ego Prime would scale to lifebringer galactus, hes stated twice tonbe on lb galactus' level and he was able to fight and kill desth celestials that could trwde blows with lb galactus
 
I only said one set of comics , not every single one... That would be far too ploblematic and opening up too many holes to fill up appropriately. Again, getting beaten by the giant avengers is an anti-feat in the exact same way as described above. Is there any other reasons beside antifeats that the option cannot be explored ?

And I said it is a retcon of their power portrayals... Not an outlier. It is a retcon based on the new lore and cosmology of the Ultimates storyline... So it's literally just new cosmology. It's basically PR Beyonder but with the Celestials and higher power in the cosmology instead of lower power like Beyonder.

And can someone else please give some feedback to my suggestions ? Not that i don't mind debating with Ant , but this seems to be something only an outside party can solve.
 
Wokistan said:
Everyone who scales to black panther, which through weird marvel scaling can be literally everyone else in the verse. 1-A gorilla for biting hulk type stuff.
Click to expand...
True Marvel scaling is all over the place, but this is a bit different. Through out the Ultimates story, it was stated that BP has this great willpower that he can use. A example besides "that" of this in the story is when he just resisted the effects of translocating to Galactus's home without going insane and having his body destroyed and separated by just refusing. BP has stated that he understood the symbols, laws, and that he could manipulate them as he was unfusing the Logos. Now I'll just state this I'm not supporting or arguing in favor of BP being High 1-B in stats.

Sorry it took so long to reply was at a family reunion and dinner.
 
Base BP is definitely not High 1-B

Now if he's Summoning the Panther God that may be a different story...
 
It was stated that that was all his power and that he was merely using the Tiger God as a body, in fact at the end of the story we see BP sitting on his throne holding the Tiger God in a small energy sphere inside his hand.
 
I would still very much appreciate if we could remove the Ego-Prime statistics, as they were temporary and did not make any sense to be of such a high level. Neither do the Celestials.

Black Panther beating the Tiger God, who is just supposed to be a local fear-powered Earthly deity, not a multiversal concept, and using it to defeat a character on par with the new Living Tribunal, is even more completely messed up scaling. A tiny human affecting the fundamental nature of the multiverse via sheer willpower is Plot-Induced Stupidity of the highest caliber.

We are on the verge of getting a lot of ridiculously wanked, exaggerated, and unreliable Marvel statistics, and I am not okay with that at all.
 
Can somebody ask Kepekley23, Azathoth, and Sera to comment here please?

Anyway, I think that we should upgrade Logos, possibly set a High 1-B statistic to the new Living Tribunal, as it is weaker than Multi-Eternity and The First Firmament, remove the Ego Prime statistics, and add a footnote to the page that it is too temporary and inconsistent to scale from. A footnote to the page of the Celestials might be necessary as well.
 
Thank you for the support Matthew.
 
Perhaps we should remove the Lifebringer Galactus statistics as well, if it only brings us lots of scaling problems.
 
I'm not trying to make this difficult... But... I'm just wondering why would it be considered inconsistent portrayal for The Celestials . In every other major issue the Celestials were referred to either be capable of Warping the Multiverse , affecting it, or considered a grand powerhouse capable of affecting it ... From the old to the new comics:

  • Shaping All of Creation or Multiverse (TIamut during Heroes Reborn: Asheema ... Keep in mind that he is stated as capable of doing so after Asheema going transcend the Crossroads of Infinity)
  • Asheema transcending the Crossroads of Infinity / Edge of Subspace very casually (the original Heroes Reborn)
  • Franklin capable of reshaping the limits of the Multiverse with Oslaught having his powers (Another version of Heroes Reborn: Three versions of the event portray them as this powerful)
  • The author of the comic when Beyonder and Molecule Man clashed is , when he talked about the Beyonder in a WoG directly stated about his retcon "the only thing that changed in his role in the hierarchy... Him being the same dimensional level hasn't changed"... Meaning he's heavily implied to still be Infinite-D... Just not on the same league as Eternity.
  • Stated they have avatars just like the Multiversal Abstracts and the( Anthormorpho considered both them and Eternity as "equally complex" when comparing their power (Quasar)
  • Considered to be almost comparble to the Multi-Abstracts in hierarchy by HIckman (Hickman's Run)
  • Stated via WoG from the Creator of Ultimates that the Galactus that fought the Mad Celestials & LB Galactus are "somewhat comparable", meaning he intends for them to be in the same league power wise (Author of Ultimates)
  • Considered to be on a similar role to Multi-Eternity and likely created him (Ultimates)
All of those are portrayals on such a level, not to mention the fact it would be consistent as guidebooks consistently suggest that TThe Celestials were intended to be above practially everyone else except for the Multiversal Absracts in hierarchy... Hickman directly stating that he intended for Well-Fed Galactus & The Mad Celestials are in the same tier as the Multiversal Abstracts, alongside other things. I believe we shouldn't just "browse over it" and legitimately just look at everything to see in a different thread... No more anti-feats, no more "it is ridiculous"... Just gather all the feats on that level explicitly from the Celestials and then make a decision after all of that is gathered.
 
Because there are at least hundreds of Celestials in every single universe, and they are generally considered to be below and subservient to the universal abstract entities, and not completely transcendant to even skyfathers such as Zeus and Odin. Other than the reference to shattering a part of the First Firmament through unknown means, with the pieces forming the first version of Multi-Eternity, they have no feats anywhere remotely of this scale.

I get the feeling that you do not truly appreciate the sheer unfathomably infinite scale of a High 1-B rating, or just how inconsistent Marvel truly is between writers and stories. Is there any chance that you could just PLEASE finally drop this issue, rather than wage a neverending war of attrition for several years to relentlessly pester me about it until I give up out of sheer exhaustion, and the Marvel profiles are destroyed by turning completely unreliable and exaggerated, as you seem to be completely obsessed with achieving?

I think that I just accidentally opened the gates of hell by allowing a High 1-B Lifebringer, and that we should remove all character statistics and scaling from the Ultimates storyline, with the exception of The First Firmament.
 
I don't need to go into detail to say that this varies a lot and you are referring to Heroes Reborn... Because no other comic refers to the celestials as directly weaker than that one version. The other two don't.

I gave up on High 1-B Universal Abstracts... Yet you call me obsessed ? If I was obsessed I would've said "High 1-B everything...etc" when I haven't at this point. I was bringing those up right now merely to show you that they are consistent in some fashion... SO making a key for one version that combines all of that wouldn't be too far fetched. Yet you state, without evidence, they have no feats remotely on this scale despite 2-3 blogs with over 50 feats from the Celestials I've created showing otherwise and despite my previous post.

I try to be considerate by literally cutting down hours worth of work into literally only a days worth of just allowing us to debate on the issue... Yet you say I'm trying to destroy Marvel and it's scaling.... Which is definitely not what I was planning.

I know the scale of Tier 1... and Infinite-D...Doesn't change my stance on this subject.

I've told you countless times in countless variations , even in this very thread, that I'll drop the issue when I get the chance to debate this formally like every other controversial topic we've done in the past couple of Months that both you and Matthew allowed to be debated despite consistent bans on such a topic... This shouldn't be some "World ending" Topic compared to those... It's a debate that needs to be thoroughly discussed before it's conclusion.
 
I am far too overworked to go through all of your scans and engage in a long debate, and Matthew is feeling increasingly spent from all of the hostility directed towards him, and has also almost lost interest in Marvel, as have I, considering that it is mainly just poorly written political propaganda at this point.

Anyway, the Celestials have been inconvenienced by Odin in the Destroyer, and defeated by regular Galactus, who was also challenged by Odin in terms of raw power. Jim Starlin also listed them as closer to Odin and Zeus in the universal hierarchy than the abstract entities. A defining feature of Franklin Richards, who is of their power level, is the ability to create universes, and he recently spent all his power from creating too many of them.

In addition, they have been referred to as dreams of Eternity, and as far smaller than the universal version in terms of scale during Heroes Reborn, and the Watcher race, who are individually referred to as comparable to skyfathers in the handbooks, were able to challenge them during a war. They also draw their power from hyperspace, and Exitar's physical form was destroyed by the Invisible Woman. Just to give a few examples.

Marvel's official stance seems to be that they and Franklin, and regular Galactus are of universe-creating and destruction level, but that's it.

In addition, as I mentioned earlier, it makes absolutely no sense for there to be an infinite number of universal cosmic entities who are each capable of wiping out the entire multiverse.
 
- Hyperspace is directly connected to the Crossroads of Infinity and was referred to be Subspace in both the new and old comics.... So that doesn't accurately justify it being only "Universal"... In fact he was within the Negative Zone when he first discovered it, something uncontradicted since the very beginning of the Marvel Universe.

- Considering how easily Uatu, someone weaker than Odin was getting thrashed by Galactus, AND how amped Well-Fed Galactus had to get just to fight the Mad Celestials when previously he was never anywhere near that prepared for a threat (He himself says he needs to prepare far more than usual beforehand to take on the threat at hand).... I wouldn't consider Skyfathers conveniencing the Celestials anything more than PIS.

- Contradicted by the Cosmic Cubes being portrayed stronger than Eternity at times, even comparable in their Multi-Abstract variations... And quite a few other things

- Contradicted by offical guidebooks stating of Franklin capable of destroying the Multiverse (Captain Britain and Heroes Reborn)

- Scaling them to the Crossroads (which according to guidebooks and a multiversal map similar to DC's Multiversity sans showing merely mystic realms / locations ) is nowhere near the size of the full Marvel Multivese, which makes it a lot more believable to scale them to than scaling them to the entire Marvel Universe... Which is not what I'm trying to do.... So that's why I was arguing that originally.

Again ... The 616 Abstracts were continuously stated as strongest variations of the avatars... By feats and practically everything else, as 616 is the most important reality, and thusly should have the highest level avatars by a significant margin... But again I'm not trying to upgrade the universal abstracts right now... But I'm fine to debate that. I'm just trying to show consistency so that my suggestion isn't far fetched.
 
I never asked specifically for you... I asked for just a thread to debate with other people interested in Marvel to see what they believe about my suggestion.. And if it goes well, fine. If it doesn't... that's fine as well . I don't want to overwork you, nor am I trying to. As a debater , I just want this debate to begin so some form of finality can be done about it.
 
1) I am not familiar with the crossroads of infinity being connected to hyperspace, but even the Invisible Woman has been portrayed as capable of taking them out. Plot-Induced Stupidity goes both ways. You cannot ignore the low illogical showings and justify the high illogical showings af the same time. We have to find a more consistent power level that makes some semblance of sense.

2) Odin inconvenienced the Celestials during their introduction story. It is what originally defined them. It is not PIS.

3) Galactus only needed to eat a few planets, and Tom DeFalco who wrote the Watcher-Celestial war story was Marvel's editor-in-chief for several years, and deeply committed to keeping Marvel lore reasonably coherent. You cannot easily dismiss this.

4) The cosmic cubes have also been portrayed as stronger than Galactus at times, who is usually roughly equal to Celestials.

5) I want to see the guidebooks stating that Franklin Richards can destroy the multiverse. In addition, the modern versions have been written by interns who are only peripherally involved in the running of Marvel as a whole, which has lead to quite a lot of inconsistencies. The classic 1980s ones were mostly very thoroughly researched and thought out though.

6) I do not understand your point.

7) Your current actions would instigate a scaling nightmare of every single cosmic entity or high level deity ending up at High 1-B, due to certain Marvel writers, especially the current ones, either having no idea what they are doing or not caring in the slightest of all the incoherent damage they cause to the story structure of the setting. And then you come along and take all of it completely literally, even though there is currently very little logical coherence between the stories, and it would be far wiser to find some sort of average and rational power level for the universal cosmic entities.

8) I am not a "debater", and have come to loathe that pretentious term, as it implies that all we should care about is scoring some kind of points against each other. I am a wiki organiser who has a responsibility to ensure that our statistics are reasonably reliable, and not completely bloated and exaggerated. You have consistently been fanatically pushing for the opposite, and I would still greatly appreciate if you finally let it go. Thank you.
 
Anyway, I would greatly appreciate if I could be allowed to remove the Lifebringer Galactus statistics, along with those of Ego Prime, and delete the Logos profile, as they seem to cause nothing but trouble, by opening the floodgates to the scaling nightmare that I have tried very hard to avoid for Marvel.
 
"Black Panther beating the Tiger God, who is just supposed to be a local fear-powered Earthly deity, not a multiversal concept, and using it to defeat a character on par with the new Living Tribunal, is even more completely messed up scaling"

BP used the Tiger God as merely a body to get there and everything he did was all his power. While he did do something to the Tiger God off screen to "beat him" in the end of the Ultimates we see BP holding him on top of his throne inside a small energy sphere.

"A tiny human affecting the fundamental nature of the multiverse via sheer willpower is Plot-Induced Stupidity of the highest caliber."

That's a legit thing in fiction.
 
Not for characters with raw power levels that should only be building level. That is just idiotic writing due to insane favouritism. We are definitely not going to scale the Black Panther to High 1-B or 1-A.
 
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